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Old
05-20-2013, 02:48 PM
  #926
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Originally Posted by LiquidSnake View Post
I'm not surprised you fail to see logic btw.

He tried to get them re-signed but players decided to go for their own security by signing longer deals. I see no problem with that.

Had Gillis signed any of these guys to higher contracts, I'm sure you'd be posting on here about how he signed them to terrible deals.

Essentially, whatever he does you're going to rip. And whatever Nonis does seems to be an excellent move. Regardless of the fact that he only made the playoffs once and traded away 2nd round picks for rentals at the deadline.
Does the name "Derek Roy" mean anything to you?

And "trying" while failing is still failing. If teams like Phoenix, LA, and TB are offering effectively 100% more money than Vancouver, why on earth would depth guys like Torres, Mitchell, and Salo sign in Vancouver? It's a pretty dumb and arrogant assumption for a guy like Mike Gillis to make if he actually expected guys to take a contract worth half of another contract that they could get elsewhere, don't you think? Raffi Torres, who almost didn't have a place to play in 2010, can have a $1.75M contract on Vancouver, or he can have a $3.5M contract on Phoenix. Pretty tough decision, isn't it? Amazing that Raffi chose Phoenix's offer over Gillis's.

No, I don't rip everything Gillis does and praise everything Nonis did. That's just not true. Dave Nonis simply didn't make the costly mistakes that Mike Gillis has. If you disagree with this, let's hear some examples. Giving up a 2nd round pick for a guy like Eric Weinrich was stupid, but it's not Michael Grabner, Quinton Howden, and Steve Bernier for a $4.25M press-box dweller. The severity of Gillis' errors really can't be overstated. Our next move is giving away an all-star goaltender for whatever pittance is offered to us. Who's fault is that?

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05-20-2013, 02:50 PM
  #927
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Huh? So as long as they're offered contracts, the GM is not to be blamed for them walking? Is that what you're saying?

Please explain the logic behind that stance, as at the present moment I can't see any. Of course a guy like Torres is going to sign somewhere else if they're offering him 2 years and Gillis is offering 1. That absolves Gillis of any sort of culpability? That's what you're suggesting?!?

Just...wow....

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05-20-2013, 03:40 PM
  #928
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Originally Posted by sk8er View Post

Just...wow....
Allow me to dumb it down for you.

Gillis offers Salo $3.75M in total compensation. Yzerman offers Salo $7.50M in total compensation. Salo chooses Yzerman's offer. And yet you're suggesting that this is Salo's fault, and not Gillis's, for walking? Just more evidence, on top of an already heaping pile of evidence, that Gillis is totally out of tune with the player marketplace.

You people are seriously giving him credit for offering this crappy contract to Salo?

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05-20-2013, 03:45 PM
  #929
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Allow me to dumb it down for you.

Gillis offers Salo $3.75M in total compensation. Yzerman offers Salo $7.50M in total compensation. Salo chooses Yzerman's offer. And yet you're suggesting that this is Salo's fault, and not Gillis's, for walking? Just more evidence, on top of an already heaping pile of evidence, that Gillis is totally out of tune with the player marketplace.

You people are seriously giving him credit for offering this crappy contract to Salo?
There is only so much that a GM can offer considering how much cap space they have and what the player brings to the table.
Tampa had more cap space and was in much need of a top 4 d-man, so they offered more money/years.

I have no problem with Salo walking since we got Garrison to replace him, and because Salo is a man made of glass. I hated having a constant fear of him getting injured during important times in the season/playoffs.

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05-20-2013, 03:47 PM
  #930
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Originally Posted by King of the ES View Post
Allow me to dumb it down for you.

Gillis offers Salo $3.75M in total compensation. Yzerman offers Salo $7.50M in total compensation. Salo chooses Yzerman's offer. And yet you're suggesting that this is Salo's fault, and not Gillis's, for walking? Just more evidence, on top of an already heaping pile of evidence, that Gillis is totally out of tune with the player marketplace.

You people are seriously giving him credit for offering this crappy contract to Salo?
So you really would rather have Gillis sign a 37-year-old Salo for 2 years/3.75 cap hit instead of a 27-year-old Garrison for 6 years/4.6 cap hit?

Come on: perhaps it is debateable, but if anything this is the least of Gillis's blunders.

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05-20-2013, 03:47 PM
  #931
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Originally Posted by King of the ES View Post
Allow me to dumb it down for you.

Gillis offers Salo $3.75M in total compensation. Yzerman offers Salo $7.50M in total compensation. Salo chooses Yzerman's offer. And yet you're suggesting that this is Salo's fault, and not Gillis's, for walking? Just more evidence, on top of an already heaping pile of evidence, that Gillis is totally out of tune with the player marketplace.

You people are seriously giving him credit for offering this crappy contract to Salo?
I do. I mean, you'd be giving 3.75M to a 38 year old who has a history of injury problems. It would have been a gamble to retain him at almost $4M, and not a gamble to retain him at $2M, which is what he made in his last year here. And I was always a big Salo fan.

Here's the thing - it's still the player's decision. If he choose to leave for money, you can't blame the GM for offering what is appropriate for that particular GM's budget.

Same thing for Ehrhoff - they had a fundamental choice between having a place on a potential championship team or going to somewhere for more money. In both their cases, I'm sure they also thought they were going to a place that might contend especially if they was on the team and could make it better.

I liked all the players who left which is why I understand why each of them left. Willie was coming off a devastating concussion - he's a smart guy, you don't think he suspected that his NHL days might be numbered? So obviously he takes that big offer out of the blue from LA (who took a gamble that paid off). And let's be honest - WIllie is lucky that everything DID work out.

I don't blame either side but to act as if the player has no say in the matter and it's all on the GM is unrealistic.


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05-20-2013, 03:55 PM
  #932
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Originally Posted by King of the ES View Post
Allow me to dumb it down for you.

Gillis offers Salo $3.75M in total compensation. Yzerman offers Salo $7.50M in total compensation. Salo chooses Yzerman's offer. And yet you're suggesting that this is Salo's fault, and not Gillis's, for walking? Just more evidence, on top of an already heaping pile of evidence, that Gillis is totally out of tune with the player marketplace.

You people are seriously giving him credit for offering this crappy contract to Salo?
Totally out of tune. Never signs anyone that's sought after..

So, let's hear it. You think Salo is better than Garrison? You think he's worth 3.75 per year? Funny how you're always crowing about being tough to play against, and now you're complaining that Gillis didn't sign Salo.

This forum is getting pretty silly these days.

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05-20-2013, 03:56 PM
  #933
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I don't think Salo was the best example.

A better example would be Gillis offering Torres an extension of 1 year @ 1M. Torres chose PHX's offer of 1.7 x 2.

A year later Gillis tries to re-acquire Torres for a 3rd.

Throughout the 2 seasons and post seasons Torres isn't a Canuck, AV has to try and play Mason Raymond, Weise, Sestito in positions they don't belong in.

Gillis has had many issues with his pro scouting and balancing his line up (on paper). AV is being scape goated albeit a change of scenary would be beneficial to both.

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05-20-2013, 04:00 PM
  #934
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Originally Posted by kthsn View Post
I don't think Salo was the best example.

A better example would be Gillis offering Torres an extension of 1 year @ 1M. Torres chose PHX's offer of 1.7 x 2.

A year later Gillis tries to re-acquire Torres for a 3rd.

Throughout the 2 seasons and post seasons Torres isn't a Canuck, AV has to try and play Mason Raymond, Weise, Sestito in positions they don't belong in.

Gillis has had many issues with his pro scouting and balancing his line up (on paper). AV is being scape goated albeit a change of scenary would be beneficial to both.
Torres is currently suspended for round 2. Perhaps Gillis realized that Torres was a nutcase who was being black-marked by the league, and intelligently decided to abandon him.

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05-20-2013, 04:02 PM
  #935
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Originally Posted by CpatainCanuck View Post
Torres is currently suspended for round 2. Perhaps Gillis realized that Torres was a nutcase who was being black-marked by the league, and intelligently decided to abandon him.
He offered him a contract during the off-season.

He tried to re-acquire him at this year's trade deadline.

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05-20-2013, 04:16 PM
  #936
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Originally Posted by kthsn View Post
He offered him a contract during the off-season.

He tried to re-acquire him at this year's trade deadline.
Looks like both Raymond and Torres are poor options doesn't it.

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05-20-2013, 04:18 PM
  #937
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Looks like both Raymond and Torres are poor options doesn't it.
Torres was still a good acquisition for San Jose.

Wilson will never admit it but Torres took out two players who were better than him (Stoll, Hansen) and scored some clutch points. That's worth a suspension and a 100k fine.

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05-20-2013, 04:33 PM
  #938
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Originally Posted by CpatainCanuck View Post
Torres is currently suspended for round 2.
That would be the round we're not playing in, right?

 
Old
05-20-2013, 04:45 PM
  #939
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Torres is currently suspended for round 2. Perhaps Gillis realized that Torres was a nutcase who was being black-marked by the league, and intelligently decided to abandon him.
THIS.

And I have no idea why everyone is so high on a glorified fourth liner that takes a heap of penalties and is oft suspended.

I didn't care when he walked and I didn't care when he signed with SJ.

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05-20-2013, 04:46 PM
  #940
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Originally Posted by LetsBeReality View Post
THIS.

And I have no idea why everyone is so high on a glorified fourth liner that takes a heap of penalties and is oft suspended.

I didn't care when he walked and I didn't care when he signed with SJ.
I like Torres for 1M a year. He was effective and despite his recklessness, I liked him. I don't like him on multiyear deal for more than 1.5M.

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05-20-2013, 04:52 PM
  #941
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This has turned into a good debate and I'll respond individually, but I wanted to say that most of you have taken my post out of context.

LiquidSnake said that Nonis was a horrible GM because he let a guy like Ed Jovanovski walk for nothing. When I retorted with Torres, Ehrhoff, Salo, and Mitchell, he said that that doesn't count against Gillis, since "he offered them contracts, they chose to go somewhere else".

Well...yeah...when the contract offered by Gillis is 50% of the value of contracts offered by other teams, it shouldn't be much of a surprise. That was my point.

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05-20-2013, 04:53 PM
  #942
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Originally Posted by LetsBeReality View Post
THIS.

And I have no idea why everyone is so high on a glorified fourth liner that takes a heap of penalties and is oft suspended.

I didn't care when he walked and I didn't care when he signed with SJ.
Did you care when he scored a game winning goal for us in the Stanley Cup finals?

I did.

If you look at his stats this year, he barely took any penalties. And personally I think Wilson has a legitimate beef with the suspension. I don't get why too hard of a body check is suddenly illegal, just because it's Torres that threw it, that's why.

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05-20-2013, 05:09 PM
  #943
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The decrompression stage must be dragging out like a summer tire slowly hemorrhaging air in the garage all winter. AV is still Canucks coach today, because either Gillis has no balls (which we already know is the case) or, it's him who's gonna be the one who gets skidded. Personally If I'm Aquaman I unload the both of them ASAP!

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05-20-2013, 05:11 PM
  #944
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Amazing how Sedin's turn it up for Sweden.... I think it's time to move on.

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05-20-2013, 05:11 PM
  #945
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The decrompression stage must be dragging out like a summer tire slowly hemorrhaging air in the garage all winter. AV is still Canucks coach today, because either Gillis has no balls (which we already know is the case) or, it's him who's gonna be the one who gets skidded. Personally If I'm Aquaman I unload the both of them ASAP!
Or maybe it's because the Canucks are too busy trying to get their AHL team location decided before the deadline ends (in two or three weeks).

Let's see, you have three months to replace a coach and a few weeks to choose an AHL location (otherwise you don't get a team).
Hmmm....we should definitely focus on coaching right now.

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05-20-2013, 05:15 PM
  #946
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The only argument you could make is how they played against the Canadian team which was comprised of a lot of high end players, but yeah.

They're not done, pretty sure most people knew that. Though they can play some tougher minutes and excel, I think the tournament showed that with them playing PK as well and more minutes. I think AV tried to give them too soft of a job, if that makes sense.

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05-20-2013, 05:18 PM
  #947
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Originally Posted by King of the ES View Post
Allow me to dumb it down for you.

You people are seriously giving him credit for offering this crappy contract to Salo?
How about this...

You are discrediting Gillis for not signing Salo to a ridiculously bad contract which means you are the person not getting it, not the people you are "dumbing it down" for.

Also, in the case of Mitchell, don't you think the fact that he had a major problem with the coach, even to the point where they weren't speaking for months, might have been the reason he didn't re-sign here? You can blame Gillis for not firing AV sooner but I think you'd have to blame AV for the fact that we lost Mitchell.

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05-20-2013, 05:18 PM
  #948
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Does the name "Derek Roy" mean anything to you?

And "trying" while failing is still failing. If teams like Phoenix, LA, and TB are offering effectively 100% more money than Vancouver, why on earth would depth guys like Torres, Mitchell, and Salo sign in Vancouver? It's a pretty dumb and arrogant assumption for a guy like Mike Gillis to make if he actually expected guys to take a contract worth half of another contract that they could get elsewhere, don't you think? Raffi Torres, who almost didn't have a place to play in 2010, can have a $1.75M contract on Vancouver, or he can have a $3.5M contract on Phoenix. Pretty tough decision, isn't it? Amazing that Raffi chose Phoenix's offer over Gillis's.

No, I don't rip everything Gillis does and praise everything Nonis did. That's just not true. Dave Nonis simply didn't make the costly mistakes that Mike Gillis has. If you disagree with this, let's hear some examples. Giving up a 2nd round pick for a guy like Eric Weinrich was stupid, but it's not Michael Grabner, Quinton Howden, and Steve Bernier for a $4.25M press-box dweller. The severity of Gillis' errors really can't be overstated. Our next move is giving away an all-star goaltender for whatever pittance is offered to us. Who's fault is that?
1 2nd round pick for a rental in the 5 years that Gillis has been here. Wow that's really great stuff to stand on there. If Nonis had done that, it wouldnt have been an issue.

Here's a rundown for you as you either started watching hockey recently or a Nonis supporter.

Dave Nonis let's Jovanovski walk without even offering a contract. When asked near the deadline why he doesnt try and trade Jovo his answer was "You dont trade a guy like Jovanovski". Yet he wasnt good enough to even offer a contract.

Dave Nonis signs Naslund who tested free agency for 7 mil while Niedermayer was willing to sign here on the condition that his brother would be brought here as well. Wow, that's a hard decision there

Dave Nonis trades a 3rd round pick for Eric Weinrich (RENTAL)
Dave Nonis trades a 2nd round pick for Keith Carney (RENTAL)
Dave Nonis trades a 2nd round pick and a 4th for Brent Sopel (RENTAL)
Dave Nonis trades a 2nd round pick for Bryan Smolinski (RENTAL)
Dave Nonis trades a 2nd round pick for Mika Noronen (RENTAL)

Dave Nonis trades Matt Cooke for Matt Pettinger (Not in the NHL anymore)

Free agency signings like Isbister, Chouinard, Ritchie, Fitzpatrick, Miller.

And to simply rebut your upcoming post of Gillis' FA signings of guys like Sturm (Whom he traded almost immediately), those Nonis signings were all for guys he tried in the top6 repeatedly and tried them on the PP. (Ritchie on the point LOL).

EDIT: Oh ya... "BUT BUT 2nd round pick for ROY!!!! OMG!"

Dave Nonis' trading of draft picks and inability to know when to walk from players greatly set this franchise back.

While Gillis hasnt been great, he's sure as **** better than Nonis.

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05-20-2013, 06:01 PM
  #949
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Originally Posted by LiquidSnake View Post
1 2nd round pick for a rental in the 5 years that Gillis has been here. Wow that's really great stuff to stand on there. If Nonis had done that, it wouldnt have been an issue.

Here's a rundown for you as you either started watching hockey recently or a Nonis supporter.

Dave Nonis let's Jovanovski walk without even offering a contract. When asked near the deadline why he doesnt try and trade Jovo his answer was "You dont trade a guy like Jovanovski". Yet he wasnt good enough to even offer a contract.

Dave Nonis signs Naslund who tested free agency for 7 mil while Niedermayer was willing to sign here on the condition that his brother would be brought here as well. Wow, that's a hard decision there

Dave Nonis trades a 3rd round pick for Eric Weinrich (RENTAL)
Dave Nonis trades a 2nd round pick for Keith Carney (RENTAL)
Dave Nonis trades a 2nd round pick and a 4th for Brent Sopel (RENTAL)
Dave Nonis trades a 2nd round pick for Bryan Smolinski (RENTAL)
Dave Nonis trades a 2nd round pick for Mika Noronen (RENTAL)

Dave Nonis trades Matt Cooke for Matt Pettinger (Not in the NHL anymore)

Free agency signings like Isbister, Chouinard, Ritchie, Fitzpatrick, Miller.

And to simply rebut your upcoming post of Gillis' FA signings of guys like Sturm (Whom he traded almost immediately), those Nonis signings were all for guys he tried in the top6 repeatedly and tried them on the PP. (Ritchie on the point LOL).

EDIT: Oh ya... "BUT BUT 2nd round pick for ROY!!!! OMG!"

Dave Nonis' trading of draft picks and inability to know when to walk from players greatly set this franchise back.

While Gillis hasnt been great, he's sure as **** better than Nonis.
Thank you for that LS. I didn't want to take time to spell this out to someone who is clearly thick or biased. Well done on your part. But you forgot to preface it with some sort of witty insult like, "let me dumb this down for you..."

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05-20-2013, 06:02 PM
  #950
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Thank you for that LS. I didn't want to take time to spell this out to someone who is clearly thick or biased. Well done on your part. But you forgot to preface it with some sort of witty insult like, "let me dumb this down for you..."
Oh, I know. Gotta love the arrogance of those words.

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