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Is Henrik Lundqvist An HOFer?

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05-18-2013, 08:43 AM
  #151
Big Phil
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cowboy82nd View Post
[/B]

So, if you played on a crappy team your whole career and never won a Stanley Cup, but you are one of the best players in the league, you have no shot at getting in the Hall of Fame? That's a joke to me. The Hall of Fame is about the individual and not the team. Team awards are nice, but it's the individual talents and what he does with them that should be judged.
No, look at a guy like Chuck Rayner. Never really on a great team. Certainly never won a Cup either. Roy Worters has a playoff record of - hold onto your hats - 3-6 and is a HHOFer. But he has a Hart Trophy, two 2nd team all-stars and a Vezina trophy. The year he won the Hart (1929) they didn't even have the season end all-star nods yet. So they certainly can recognize great goalies on poor teams. In other words, it may be a bit of a stigma for a great goalie to never win a Cup, but it isn't going to keep you out of the HHOF beyond a shadow of a doubt.


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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
From that list, only Barrasso and Vachon should get serious consideration. And he's knocking on their door right now.
Well maybe one of them will get in. But the point is that Lundqvist doesn't even have the resume yet of those guys I mentioned. Not even Liut. He has a ways to go.

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05-18-2013, 08:45 PM
  #152
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Originally Posted by SnowblindNYR View Post
I think he was being sarcastic.
Not really, more like highlighting the absurdity of the word several the way it was used.

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05-18-2013, 08:46 PM
  #153
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
No, look at a guy like Chuck Rayner. Never really on a great team. Certainly never won a Cup either. Roy Worters has a playoff record of - hold onto your hats - 3-6 and is a HHOFer. But he has a Hart Trophy, two 2nd team all-stars and a Vezina trophy. The year he won the Hart (1929) they didn't even have the season end all-star nods yet. So they certainly can recognize great goalies on poor teams. In other words, it may be a bit of a stigma for a great goalie to never win a Cup, but it isn't going to keep you out of the HHOF beyond a shadow of a doubt.




Well maybe one of them will get in. But the point is that Lundqvist doesn't even have the resume yet of those guys I mentioned. Not even Liut. He has a ways to go.
The best goalie in the league over an eight year period and he is not in Liut territory yet?

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05-18-2013, 08:48 PM
  #154
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
No, look at a guy like Chuck Rayner. Never really on a great team. Certainly never won a Cup either. Roy Worters has a playoff record of - hold onto your hats - 3-6 and is a HHOFer. But he has a Hart Trophy, two 2nd team all-stars and a Vezina trophy. The year he won the Hart (1929) they didn't even have the season end all-star nods yet. So they certainly can recognize great goalies on poor teams. In other words, it may be a bit of a stigma for a great goalie to never win a Cup, but it isn't going to keep you out of the HHOF beyond a shadow of a doubt.




Well maybe one of them will get in. But the point is that Lundqvist doesn't even have the resume yet of those guys I mentioned. Not even Liut. He has a ways to go.
After Lundqvist's playoffs last year and then being a Vezina finalist yet again this year, I don't see how anyone can possibly have him under Mike Liut

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05-18-2013, 08:53 PM
  #155
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
After Lundqvist's playoffs last year and then being a Vezina finalist yet again this year, I don't see how anyone can possibly have him under Mike Liut
And the way these playoffs have gone so far.

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05-19-2013, 09:31 AM
  #156
CHGoalie27
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Aside from single-handedly winning most of his wins, HE kept all(but 3) of his losses from total
embarassment.

...and Dan Marino didn't belong in Canton??


Last edited by CHGoalie27: 05-19-2013 at 09:38 AM.
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05-19-2013, 09:44 AM
  #157
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
After Lundqvist's playoffs last year and then being a Vezina finalist yet again this year, I don't see how anyone can possibly have him under Mike Liut
UHHHH... LOL Don't pay any attention to people who "think" like that as they don't deserve attention.

LOL I love how most people commenting against him sound like they don't regularly watch NYR games....come on people-tell me more about his stats that were printed by someone who actually saw the game that save you from sounding truly knowledgable.

On a stat sheet, the difference between a 'bad goal' and a goal where the goal-scorer is left alone in front is NOTHING. Sounds like many don't care about the difference if you even recognize it.

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05-19-2013, 10:13 AM
  #158
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He seems to me like this generation's Eddie Giacomin, from what I've heard. If he plays out a full career at a high level, he'll probably have the respect and recognition to be a HOFer even without being on a Cup winning team.

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05-19-2013, 10:15 AM
  #159
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Originally Posted by Hot Water Bottle View Post
He seems to me like this generation's Eddie Giacomin, from what I've heard. If he plays out a full career at a high level, he'll probably have the respect and recognition to be a HOFer even without being on a Cup winning team.
He has several more Vezina season in him. Granted we don't see any new goalie emerge as a top dog, he'll have a good shot at winning at least like 2 more of them. He lost a few due to average/good goalies having fantastic years to not really be close to that level again.

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05-19-2013, 10:36 AM
  #160
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He has several more Vezina season in him. Granted we don't see any new goalie emerge as a top dog, he'll have a good shot at winning at least like 2 more of them. He lost a few due to average/good goalies having fantastic years to not really be close to that level again.
If Bob didn't play of out him mind far beyond what any sane person could have expected, Henke would probably be picking up a second one this year.

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05-19-2013, 01:30 PM
  #161
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
After Lundqvist's playoffs last year and then being a Vezina finalist yet again this year, I don't see how anyone can possibly have him under Mike Liut
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
The best goalie in the league over an eight year period and he is not in Liut territory yet?
Mike Liut led all goalies in wins in the 1980s. 294-271-74 record. 29-32 playoff record. 1981 Pearson Winner over none other than Wayne Gretzky. First team all-star in 1981, Second team in 1987. Finished top 6 three times in the Hart voting.

Lundqvist 276-171-57 record. 29-34 in the postseason and likely to lose in the second round here. Vezina in 2012. First teamer in 2012.

Lundqvist hasn't been much of a playoff goalie, just like Liut, but if his career ended tomorrow he isn't in the HHOF. Best goalie over an 8 year spell? Very arguable and not something I agree with either. Give the guy time, but he isn't this legend he tends to be painted as yet. Projection is something that clouds the judgement of people rather than the actual current accomplishments right now. He's still a tier below the current crop of goalies that are somewhat a tier below the HHOF.

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05-20-2013, 06:05 PM
  #162
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Mike Liut led all goalies in wins in the 1980s. 294-271-74 record. 29-32 playoff record. 1981 Pearson Winner over none other than Wayne Gretzky. First team all-star in 1981, Second team in 1987. Finished top 6 three times in the Hart voting.

Lundqvist 276-171-57 record. 29-34 in the postseason and likely to lose in the second round here. Vezina in 2012. First teamer in 2012.

Lundqvist hasn't been much of a playoff goalie, just like Liut, but if his career ended tomorrow he isn't in the HHOF. Best goalie over an 8 year spell? Very arguable and not something I agree with either. Give the guy time, but he isn't this legend he tends to be painted as yet. Projection is something that clouds the judgement of people rather than the actual current accomplishments right now. He's still a tier below the current crop of goalies that are somewhat a tier below the HHOF.
Alright, then who's the best goalie over the past 8 seasons?

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...y=games_goalie

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...y=games_goalie

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05-20-2013, 06:27 PM
  #163
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Alright, then who's the best goalie over the past 8 seasons?
Tim Thomas.

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05-20-2013, 06:36 PM
  #164
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Tim Thomas.
Yeah NOOOO

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05-20-2013, 06:38 PM
  #165
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Originally Posted by Skarjak View Post
This. He's never even been that far in the playoffs. Why would anyone suggest he could even be close to being a HOFer?

I swear it should be renamed the "Hall of Not So Bad". You should need a serious collection of trophies and the Stanely Cup to get in.
This takes the cake for worst post in the thread.

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05-20-2013, 08:59 PM
  #166
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
Tim Thomas.
For being two save percentage points better over 137 fewer games? And barely better than the other Boston goalies over this time?

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05-20-2013, 09:00 PM
  #167
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For being two save percentage points better over 137 fewer games? And barely better than the other Boston goalies over this time?
Two save percentage titles, two Vezinas, two 1st Team selections, and one of the better Conn Smythe Trophies of the era. And those two points.

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05-20-2013, 10:02 PM
  #168
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I'll take the guy who did two points less for 35% more games, any day. And of course that's assuming one ignores team influence on save percentage... which one shouldn't do.

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05-21-2013, 12:54 AM
  #169
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
I'll take the guy who did two points less for 35% more games, any day. And of course that's assuming one ignores team influence on save percentage... which one shouldn't do.
This is true if we look just on their save%... but you can't gloss over the fact that Thomas accomplished thrice as much awards-wise.

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05-21-2013, 12:58 AM
  #170
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This is true if we look just on their save%... but you can't gloss over the fact that Thomas accomplished thrice as much awards-wise.
so you're an award counter then?

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05-21-2013, 01:21 AM
  #171
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and if award voting is the only thing that matters, over the last 8 seasons Lundqvist has earned more Vezina votes than Thomas, and by a wide margin, too.

24-23-45.

Thomas is 39-10-8. And of course that is all from two seasons.

save percentages of top post-lockout goalies compared to cumulative team sv% (using the 12 who can be associated mainly with one franchise):

Lundqvist: .920 vs. .901, +19
Kiprusoff: .912 vs. .898, +14
Miller: .916 vs. .904, +12
Ward: .910 vs. .898, +12
Thomas: .922 vs. .913, +9
Fleury: .910 vs. .902, +8
Luongo: .919 vs. .912, +7
Rinne: .919 vs. .913, +6
Brodeur: .914 vs. .909, +5
Price: .915 vs. .912, +3
Backstrom: .917 vs. .915, +2
Nabokov, .910 vs. .913, -3

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05-21-2013, 01:37 AM
  #172
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
so you're an award counter then?
No more than you're a stat worshiper.

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05-21-2013, 01:49 AM
  #173
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Originally Posted by MadArcand View Post
No more than you're a stat worshiper.
way to miss the point.

whether talking about stats or awards, you're speaking from the standpoint that winning once is better than not winning, regardless of how close one gets or how often. Or, in the case of Thomas/Lundqvist, twice vs. once. That's missing the forest for the trees.

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05-21-2013, 02:03 AM
  #174
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
I'll take the guy who did two points less for 35% more games, any day. And of course that's assuming one ignores team influence on save percentage... which one shouldn't do.
I'm not ignoring team influence. In fact, I was discussing it with you in the Top 40 thread until you stopped responding to legitimate points raised by both TCG and myself.

Only four goaltenders have led the league in save percentage as a starter multiple times since the statistic became official: Roy, Hasek, Belfour, and Thomas. Thomas did it with leads of .007 and .008. Belfour did it with leads of .004 and less than .001, meaning we haven't seen a goaltender do what Thomas did in those two seasons since Hasek in 95/98/99 and Roy in 89/90. And Thomas' save percentage jumps up in the playoffs both in terms of cumulative numbers and game-to-game consistency, with one of the runs being a .940 Conn Smythe when the league average was .911.

Lundqvist has consistency, but Thomas has an incredibly high peak (I just compared it to Hasek and Roy) that makes up 25% of the eight year sample. You realize Thomas' leads over his own backups during his Vezina years were by .023 and .020, yes? The fact that Rask is better than the New York backups doesn't make Lundqvist better at stopping the puck; Rask could've come into the league as a #1 goaltender and been successful.

So for Lundqvist to be higher than Thomas in an eight-year sample, he should either have two save percentage titles (his highest finish is fourth), a higher cumulative save percentage (he doesn't), a better playoff resume (he has a penchant for playing as many below average games as above average games), or more trophies (he collected fewer than 10/30 Vezina votes every season from 2007-2011 for having high-GP stats, only winning one Vezina to Thomas' two and a Conn Smythe).

I mean, the difference in GP is practically the same as the difference in GP between Alexander Ovechkin and Sidney Crosby. It's not that big of a deal, considering Boston was trying to play Rask as much as possible since he was the goalie of the future. If you think a concentrated number of GP would have negatively impacted Tim Thomas, may I suggest the 2005-06 season (38 games in 95 days; 7th in save percentage) and the 2011 playoffs (25 games in 62 days; Conn Smythe)?

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05-21-2013, 02:33 AM
  #175
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
way to miss the point.

whether talking about stats or awards, you're speaking from the standpoint that winning once is better than not winning, regardless of how close one gets or how often. Or, in the case of Thomas/Lundqvist, twice vs. once. That's missing the forest for the trees.
Remind me again how close did Lundqvist get to a Conn Smythe?

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