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Why Don't The Habs Ever Get Any Credit?

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Old
05-20-2013, 03:11 PM
  #76
Mrb1p
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We already had an answer to the Sens' physical play: don't fall into the trap of playing the other team's overly physical game. The Habs' worst games of the season were when they played with road rage, going out of their way to hit and check when it wasn't necessary, to send some kind of a message. Unfortunately, the message was, "We're not very good at this type of game". This was what we saw in game-three against Ottawa. After totally dominating the Sens in game-two, the Habs came out looking for a fight in game-three and played a stupid, undisciplined, out-of-position game. I don't know if it was a coaching strategy or the players lack of control, but it was the worst possible style for a team that wins by skating, not hitting.

That stupidity cost us a game, plus another two or three aggravated injuries from useless fights.

When Montreal stuck to what they were good at, they handled the physical teams very well all season. We dominated Boston and we dominated Toronto two of the last three games. We don't need to improve to beat the physical teams -- we already can beat them -- we need to improve to beat the skilled teams like the Pens and upcoming Islanders, not to mention the incoming Detroit. Ottawa's a mix of both physicality and skill, but we could have dominated them as we did in two of the games if discipline and injuries didn't tear the team apart.

Lshap, you should post more. You're a treat to read...

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05-20-2013, 03:12 PM
  #77
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It's pretty simple, because cbc and tsn's target audience isn't habs fans.

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05-20-2013, 03:32 PM
  #78
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When you get upset in 5 games, you want the major media outlets to talk about your team?
When the Bruins lose, I hope and pray the networks forget we exist

CBC and TSN are both crazy pro-Toronto. I suppose that by default makes them somewhat anti-Habs as MTL is Toronto's biggest rival, but realistically if the Habs were an elite team year-in and year-out they'd be forced to talk about/respect those accomplishments. The good news for you guys is that the team is definitely moving in the right direction...that's faaaaar more important then whether CBC or TSN is talking about it.

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05-20-2013, 03:53 PM
  #79
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Speaking as a Leafs fan, the Leafs have been the laughing stock of the NHL for the last decade. Horrible seasons, awful contracts, terrible goaltending, horrendous coaching, poor management. Up until the last couple of seasons, NOTHING positive was said about the Leafs. As for the Leafs media coverage, they get the most coverage because they have the largest fanbase. No more, no less.

I'll give the Habs credit on their season. I think they'll be a strong team for years ahead. Bergevin seems to know what he's doing. For our Olympics sake, I hope Price rebounds in a big way next season.

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05-20-2013, 03:57 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by TonsofPuppies View Post
Speaking as a Leafs fan, the Leafs have been the laughing stock of the NHL for the last decade. Horrible seasons, awful contracts, terrible goaltending, horrendous coaching, poor management. Up until the last couple of seasons, NOTHING positive was said about the Leafs. As for the Leafs media coverage, they get the most coverage because they have the largest fanbase. No more, no less.

I'll give the Habs credit on their season. I think they'll be a strong team for years ahead. Bergevin seems to know what he's doing. For our Olympics sake, I hope Price rebounds in a big way next season.
canada is in big trouble when it comes to goaltending in the olympics.

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05-20-2013, 03:58 PM
  #81
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canada is in big trouble when it comes to goaltending in the olympics.
I'm still thinking Price can turn it around. At this point, I'd go with:

Price
Luongo
Ward

Fleury is done.

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05-20-2013, 04:01 PM
  #82
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like i said we re in trouble.all 3 of those guys have major questions.the U.S. have anderson and quick.

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05-20-2013, 04:03 PM
  #83
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like i said we re in trouble.all 3 of those guys have major questions.the U.S. have anderson and quick.
And Miller. And Howard. And Schneider.

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05-20-2013, 04:14 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by TonsofPuppies View Post
Speaking as a Leafs fan, the Leafs have been the laughing stock of the NHL for the last decade. Horrible seasons, awful contracts, terrible goaltending, horrendous coaching, poor management. Up until the last couple of seasons, NOTHING positive was said about the Leafs. As for the Leafs media coverage, they get the most coverage because they have the largest fanbase. No more, no less.

I'll give the Habs credit on their season. I think they'll be a strong team for years ahead. Bergevin seems to know what he's doing. For our Olympics sake, I hope Price rebounds in a big way next season.
Don't want to turn this into a debate but Montreal has the biggest fan base, not Toronto. It's not a knock on TO, it's normal that the most successful team in the history of the sport has the biggest fan base. Just like the Yankees in MLB or the Celtics and Lakers in NBA.
TO have a huge fan base as well, but not the largest.
They get the most coverage because CBC and TSN headquarters are in Toronto, they're the local team. It's only normal.

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05-20-2013, 04:19 PM
  #85
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Too bad there aren't more Quebecois refs. The band of Torontonians we have are bitter that they can't help the leafs because the few fans the unviable American franchises have would leave if they didn't get all the calls and they take it out on the habs.

This year's series seriously worried me because the habs will have to be massively better than anyone else to take another cup. Being good enough won't fly. Every series they've been in since '93 has had zany reffing:

Against buffalo with Vigneault they had sabres cycling without the puck to run Moog with no call and Hasek got calls when people tried to take the puck off his stick without touching him.
Justin Williams was allowed to whack people in the head with no calls. I admit he kept doing it after the habs series but he didn't get anyone the way he got Koivu after that, either. He went on a scoring spree because no one would defend him because they knew they would get hit in the head by his stick.
Even the series against Boston that they won featured some glaring non-calls, and then there was Mclaren...
Against the senators this year you just look at game 4. What can you say? WWF. Shameful. Beyond the obvious calls the refs were looking at the Ottawa players to decide what to do on faceoffs. Crazy...

In the regular season there are a number of refs that are worth at least a goal for the opponents, like Chris Lee, but in the playoffs it gets crazy. Homer calls are normal, there was a study that indicated the home field advantage in all sports was due to partisan officiating, but it's normally a small advantage.

I think the habs may be toast long term. The leafs too, oddly enough. The reffing against Boston (in the Toronto series) wasn't quite as blatant, but there was bias. Habs fans and Leafs fans will attend games if the team sucks. American teams won't. It's pretty clear the league gets that, and wants to maximize profits (and TV contracts, the Canadian outlets will pay even if there are no Canadian teams yet again).

We need a Canadian hockey league. The NHL has sunk too low.
Perfect example, the Pittsburgh Penguins. My god the refs just close their eyes to anything their players do. I still can't believe not one single ref called Matt Cooke for high sticking last night, and I guarantee they saw it, no way you can miss something so obvious. The B.S that goes on between Pittsburgh and any other team is so blatantly obvious it's sickening.

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05-20-2013, 04:49 PM
  #86
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Perfect example, the Pittsburgh Penguins. My god the refs just close their eyes to anything their players do. I still can't believe not one single ref called Matt Cooke for high sticking last night, and I guarantee they saw it, no way you can miss something so obvious. The B.S that goes on between Pittsburgh and any other team is so blatantly obvious it's sickening.
I don't buy that Refs have biases towards certain teams. I just don't buy it.
It is possible that they give some players the benefit of the doubt, or the exact opposite. I also think that the refs don't forget and will make things personal if a player makes them look bad (like embellishing and then laughing about it).
If you have a reputation, it can also play against/for you.

I don't think however that refs have a bias towards complete teams. It's tough to say that when you see teams like Boston initiate and goon up so much more than their opponents, but that's because their whole team would be in the penalty box, for the whole game, and that just isn't a possibility.

The officiating is bad in general in the NHL. It's seriously garbage. There is no consistency, at all, and too many calls are subjective. The only calls they get right is when there is no room for interpretation, like a high stick, or automatic delay of game for puck over glass. They can still make mistakes on those or miss them, but generally speaking they get them right. Should be more of that and less subjectivity.

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05-20-2013, 05:09 PM
  #87
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I have to say I read this thread title and thought "who cares?"

Are we that insecure as fans that we need to see the Habs praised in the media? I mean really, who cares?

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05-20-2013, 07:10 PM
  #88
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bergevin just got here budz.settle down.boo hoo we didnt make the conference finals in his first year.you bailing out already??typical.
budz?

How old are you?

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Old
05-20-2013, 07:32 PM
  #89
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old enough to know that giving up on a gm after 1 year is typical of you.

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05-20-2013, 07:41 PM
  #90
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Ya Ottawa missing Spezza is a heavy obliterated team...
I agree, 80 point, 1st line centers are a dime a dozen.

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05-20-2013, 07:51 PM
  #91
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Don't want to turn this into a debate but Montreal has the biggest fan base, not Toronto. It's not a knock on TO, it's normal that the most successful team in the history of the sport has the biggest fan base. Just like the Yankees in MLB or the Celtics and Lakers in NBA.
TO have a huge fan base as well, but not the largest.
They get the most coverage because CBC and TSN headquarters are in Toronto, they're the local team. It's only normal.
I disagree personally. Based on when the Leafs are playing abroad in other team's arenas, the amount of Toronto fans at these venues (even in places as far away as Anaheim) is pretty impressive. I see the same thing with the Habs, especially in Florida, but not quite to the same degree as Toronto. I could also argue that with Toronto being a far larger city than Montreal, a larger fan base should be expected. Obviously there are loads of Habs fans in Toronto, just like there are loads of Leafs fans in Montreal, so it's hard to say really. I'd give the edge to the Leafs, but they're pretty much neck in neck. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

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05-20-2013, 08:38 PM
  #92
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old enough to know that giving up on a gm after 1 year is typical of you.
But not old enough to realize that there is a huge difference in criticizing the lack of moves that a GM did not make and "giving up on a GM". Budz.

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05-20-2013, 08:48 PM
  #93
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Lshap, you should post more. You're a treat to read...
That's really appreciated. Thanks!

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05-20-2013, 08:50 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Don't want to turn this into a debate but Montreal has the biggest fan base, not Toronto. It's not a knock on TO, it's normal that the most successful team in the history of the sport has the biggest fan base. Just like the Yankees in MLB or the Celtics and Lakers in NBA.
TO have a huge fan base as well, but not the largest.
They get the most coverage because CBC and TSN headquarters are in Toronto, they're the local team. It's only normal.
Wrong, I believe the Yankees have 26 championships and the Celtics have the best winning percentage as they have 17 championship since joining the NBA in the 60's.

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05-20-2013, 08:52 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by TonsofPuppies View Post
I disagree personally. Based on when the Leafs are playing abroad in other team's arenas, the amount of Toronto fans at these venues (even in places as far away as Anaheim) is pretty impressive. I see the same thing with the Habs, especially in Florida, but not quite to the same degree as Toronto. I could also argue that with Toronto being a far larger city than Montreal, a larger fan base should be expected. Obviously there are loads of Habs fans in Toronto, just like there are loads of Leafs fans in Montreal, so it's hard to say really. I'd give the edge to the Leafs, but they're pretty much neck in neck. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.
I think the biggest dividing line is language. Most of Montreal's fan base is French, which makes them the runaway favourite team if you watch RDS. Take away that French demographic and there's no contest which team corners the English North American market that watches CBC and TSN - Toronto.

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05-20-2013, 08:54 PM
  #96
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But not old enough to realize that there is a huge difference in criticizing the lack of moves that a GM did not make and "giving up on a GM". Budz.
Way, way agreed.

I'm quite critical of MT's misdeeds in the last stretch and MB since the Desharnais extension and his inactivity at the deadline but I won't say that I gave up on them... it's just the greater culture of the club hasn't really seemed to change and I'm wondering at what point we'll see a noticeable difference between the Gillette/Boivin/Gainey era and the Molson/Savard/Bergevin era.

They're both preach patience and character, they both don't like making drastic moves and both groups LOVE sticking to the status quo.

After last year's debacle a more aggressive GM would've ripped the leadership structure and made sure the team knew that the regime had changed - this one did the opposite: they coddled Gionta, Gorges and Markov as if we just came off a hard fought SCF loss. Bergevin traded for Drewiske even though most of our offense at the time (and since) was reliant on unproven super young players and PK Subban's PP heroics. Our best scoring depth was Bournival/LeBlanc in hamilton.

It's those kinda small moves and non-moves that upset me - classic small-time "we'll be a stronger team next year!" kinda mentality.

I remember when people were drooling about Grabovski/Kostitsyn/Kostitsyn coming up. Has our club really improved since then? I know our on-ice team is more talented, for sure but we're still operating like we used to. It's time to trade some of these prospects for good players, it's time to make some hard moves. Buy out Gionta, buy out Kaberle - don't settle for mediocrity just because it works hard. We have a very hard-working team already - Kostopoulos isn't going to win us a cup we need to get another good d-man, and a GREAT scoring winger. They're not cheap but we have the assets.

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05-20-2013, 09:45 PM
  #97
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Way, way agreed.

I'm quite critical of MT's misdeeds in the last stretch and MB since the Desharnais extension and his inactivity at the deadline but I won't say that I gave up on them... it's just the greater culture of the club hasn't really seemed to change and I'm wondering at what point we'll see a noticeable difference between the Gillette/Boivin/Gainey era and the Molson/Savard/Bergevin era.
The greater culture hasn't changed? You expected it to change in half a season in a season with no training camp?
It's because of comments like those that other posters believe some have given up on the GM.
I mean really, it's been half a year, clearly Bergevin believes in a more rugged line up with the additions of Armstrong, Prust and Bouillon. He also made a claim on Sestito but unfortunately got beat to it. Can't change everything in one summer/half a season buddy.

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They're both preach patience and character, they both don't like making drastic moves and both groups LOVE sticking to the status quo.
Something that is very true and I'm glad Bergevin focused on that is that building a contender for years needs to be done through proper drafting and development, not the open market. You can't do that overnight, so whether you like it or not, you will have to be patient.

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After last year's debacle a more aggressive GM would've ripped the leadership structure and made sure the team knew that the regime had changed - this one did the opposite: they coddled Gionta, Gorges and Markov as if we just came off a hard fought SCF loss. Bergevin traded for Drewiske even though most of our offense at the time (and since) was reliant on unproven super young players and PK Subban's PP heroics. Our best scoring depth was Bournival/LeBlanc in hamilton.
A more careless and dumb GM would have ripped the structure you mean.
No general manager of any company will come into a new team and completely change the structure without going through an evaluation process.
Bergevin knew he had a lot of work to do, but how does he know just how good Plekanec is? How does he know Plekanec's eating habits, work habits, personality, attitude, etc..??
He can't oversee everything in depth by himself, so he hires a big staff that he trusts, he did that.
No matter how much you hate Gionta, no rookie GM will ever come into Mtl and just trade the captain right off the bat. I mean seriously, be realistic a bit. That will never happen.

As for the trade deadline, I disagree with you. I'm glad Bergevin didn't make any significant moves. Making one or two moves would have likely changed very little (not winning the cup this year) and it possibly would have flawed our perception.
Not significant moves was the right way to properly assess this team in the POs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
It's those kinda small moves and non-moves that upset me - classic small-time "we'll be a stronger team next year!" kinda mentality.

I remember when people were drooling about Grabovski/Kostitsyn/Kostitsyn coming up. Has our club really improved since then? I know our on-ice team is more talented, for sure but we're still operating like we used to. It's time to trade some of these prospects for good players, it's time to make some hard moves. Buy out Gionta, buy out Kaberle - don't settle for mediocrity just because it works hard. We have a very hard-working team already - Kostopoulos isn't going to win us a cup we need to get another good d-man, and a GREAT scoring winger. They're not cheap but we have the assets.
Not sure how our prospect pool is at has anything to do with Bergevin. He's been through one draft and people consider the Habs the big winners of last year's draft, so really, I don't get what you're saying.

And on one hand you mock our prospect pool by saying our scoring depth in AHL is Leblanc and Bournival, not comparable to the times of Kost broz-Grabo, but then finish by saying we have the assets to grab ''a good Dman and GREAT scoring winger''.

Again, you are making assumptions based off half a season ''we're still operating like we used too''. If you expected a rookie GM to come here and start making some crazy trades, then your expectations were a tad ridiculous.
You can look at the Flyers or the Rangers for GMs that are aggressive, yet Philly missed the POs this year and the NYR haven't been to the Cup finals since they won a year after us.

Bergevin took a team that finished 28th and in his first season as a GM ever, he finished 2nd in the East, top of his division. This without making any big moves.
Now you have a different expectation though. Going into next season, you should expect this team to be better, but a lot of it should also come from youngsters.

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05-20-2013, 10:23 PM
  #98
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Is part of this just the language thing? How many Habs fans watch coverage in English? I assume the minority? Of Coarse the Big guys are going to cover Toronto more than Montreal-they will get entire city to watch there broadcasts, while in Montreal most will watch in French and smaller portion in English.

How much does RDS spend talking about Toronto/Vancouver/Calgary? They don't really care since no one there watches RDS.

Here in Toronto people were talking about how great the Leafs game did on CBC and was highest rated game, than someone pointed out that one of the Boston/Montreal games actually had more viewers, but split over 2 languages.

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05-20-2013, 11:19 PM
  #99
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The greater culture hasn't changed? You expected it to change in half a season in a season with no training camp?
It's because of comments like those that other posters believe some have given up on the GM.
I mean really, it's been half a year, clearly Bergevin believes in a more rugged line up with the additions of Armstrong, Prust and Bouillon. He also made a claim on Sestito but unfortunately got beat to it. Can't change everything in one summer/half a season buddy.



Something that is very true and I'm glad Bergevin focused on that is that building a contender for years needs to be done through proper drafting and development, not the open market. You can't do that overnight, so whether you like it or not, you will have to be patient.



A more careless and dumb GM would have ripped the structure you mean.
No general manager of any company will come into a new team and completely change the structure without going through an evaluation process.
Bergevin knew he had a lot of work to do, but how does he know just how good Plekanec is? How does he know Plekanec's eating habits, work habits, personality, attitude, etc..??
He can't oversee everything in depth by himself, so he hires a big staff that he trusts, he did that.
No matter how much you hate Gionta, no rookie GM will ever come into Mtl and just trade the captain right off the bat. I mean seriously, be realistic a bit. That will never happen.

As for the trade deadline, I disagree with you. I'm glad Bergevin didn't make any significant moves. Making one or two moves would have likely changed very little (not winning the cup this year) and it possibly would have flawed our perception.
Not significant moves was the right way to properly assess this team in the POs.


Not sure how our prospect pool is at has anything to do with Bergevin. He's been through one draft and people consider the Habs the big winners of last year's draft, so really, I don't get what you're saying.

And on one hand you mock our prospect pool by saying our scoring depth in AHL is Leblanc and Bournival, not comparable to the times of Kost broz-Grabo, but then finish by saying we have the assets to grab ''a good Dman and GREAT scoring winger''.

Again, you are making assumptions based off half a season ''we're still operating like we used too''. If you expected a rookie GM to come here and start making some crazy trades, then your expectations were a tad ridiculous.
You can look at the Flyers or the Rangers for GMs that are aggressive, yet Philly missed the POs this year and the NYR haven't been to the Cup finals since they won a year after us.

Bergevin took a team that finished 28th and in his first season as a GM ever, he finished 2nd in the East, top of his division. This without making any big moves.
Now you have a different expectation though. Going into next season, you should expect this team to be better, but a lot of it should also come from youngsters.
Kriss, I just finished watching the Red Wings/Blackhawks game. Both of those teams are built with developed players that they drafted..........and with players that they traded for.

Building from within without trading is a very risky move and Edmonton proves that season after season.

I can only speak for myself but I think that WhiskeySeven and I want to see Bergevin adopt the Chicago way (which ironically is what he helped to develop) of improving a team by trading players on the team as well as draft picks and or prospects.

We may see that this offseason.

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05-20-2013, 11:48 PM
  #100
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Kriss, I just finished watching the Red Wings/Blackhawks game. Both of those teams are built with developed players that they drafted..........and with players that they traded for.

Building from within without trading is a very risky move and Edmonton proves that season after season.

I can only speak for myself but I think that WhiskeySeven and I want to see Bergevin adopt the Chicago way (which ironically is what he helped to develop) of improving a team by trading players on the team as well as draft picks and or prospects.

We may see that this offseason.
No team builds without some trading or free agency... heck Ryan Smyth came back that way.

Edmonton's problem is incompetent management. They may just succeed despite themselves but I have little faith in the folks running things over there. And Kevin Lowe is back?

WTF are they thinking?

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