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The Carey Price Discussion Thread (Part 4)

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Old
05-21-2013, 12:14 PM
  #876
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Originally Posted by Jerk Store View Post
I agree that no knee jerk reaction to his performance this year is required, see my post quoted from yesterday. My analogy was directed at those who just can't seem to admit that he's been sub-par this year, that's all.
was poor analogy, and that specific behavior is the same as the people who can't admit this team is sub par (in terms of being a competitive team), despite it's "40 game sample of success". Being fans, or more specifically fanatics.

The rest of my rant was towards the belief that trading price is the optimal solution for our goal-tending, not directed at any specific poster.

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05-21-2013, 12:32 PM
  #877
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Price could be the Bre-X stock of hockey.

Many expert financial advisors put people into this stock. Assay results showed the biggest gold finds in history were in the ore, just needed to be mined (in the future of course) .People bought into it, The stock rocketed but no gold was ever produced.

Even as stories surfaced about possible fraud people kept buying the stock because of herd mentality and the unquestionable word of so called experts who told us it was the biggest thing ever.

In the end the rock was worthless and so too became the stock, and everyone but the experts were left holding the bag and shaking their head.

Sometimes it's best to cut losses and get out of a worthless investment while other people still think its worth buying.

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05-21-2013, 12:38 PM
  #878
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Great analogies guys, keep piling em up; Price the wife-beater and NHL fraudster ("Next on 24CH, Price never actually played hockey prior to being spoon-fed an NHL job, steals all of habs fans volatile emotions and flees to mexico").

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05-21-2013, 12:44 PM
  #879
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Originally Posted by uiCk View Post
Great analogies guys, keep piling em up; Price the wife-beater and NHL fraudster ("Next on 24CH, Price never actually played hockey prior to being spoon-fed an NHL job, steals all of habs fans volatile emotions and flees to mexico").
You apparently don't know what an analogy is. If I compare Price to a broken car doesn't mean I literally think Price is a car.

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05-21-2013, 12:49 PM
  #880
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How do they not make any sense? Rinne had one season where he was nominated for the Vezina, and one run to the WCF and the rest of his season have actually been pretty inconsistent. He's part of the Preds finishing so low this year, if Price was bad this year, then Rinne wasn't even a starter with how played from day to day. I thought he also gave us a chance to win in this series. But the offense never capitalized and the defense stopped playing after one little inevitable goal would have been allowed because he was the only one playing.
See my post about Rinne in the out-of-town thread....He has to be removed from anything negatively we had to say about this year....Sorry....

2 seasons of more than .920. 1 season of .917. With a team that despite having 2 great d-men in front of him in Suter and Weber, was never going to give him a whole lot of contribution offensively. We keep talking here how Price never get the offense he deserved....try Rinne.

A Rinne that was selected in round 8 of a REALLY REALLY ordinairy draft. In the end, Rinne was the reason why the Preds made the playoffs when they did as nobody always expected them to fall on their face. He did have 2 2nd rounds going for him. And 2 Vezina nominations.

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05-21-2013, 12:54 PM
  #881
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Wow, a lot of back and fort!
As a Hab fan, I hope Price takes it to the next level starting training camp.

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05-21-2013, 12:59 PM
  #882
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Originally Posted by onice View Post
Which still doesn't prove anything because they could have started as 2 & 3 goal leads. And then again maybe not. Your stat is as misleading as his statement.

All I know is that Subban plays on the same lousy team as Price but he is living up to his potential. Eller plays on the same team and has no trouble developing. Gallagher check. Galchenyuk check. Emelin & Diaz had no trouble living up to expectations.

Price, well, let's lay the blame at the feet of his team mates.

Price was drafted & is right now paid as a difference maker and quite honestly he has not been a difference maker.

True that when those other players goof up there's always someone else to cover up whereas when Price brain farts there's no one. But his gaffes have been too many and too often.
you nailed it man.subban has raised his game to an elite level on this team .others are following .price is lagging behind.hopefully its just a speedbump in his career.

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05-21-2013, 01:30 PM
  #883
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Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
You apparently don't know what an analogy is. If I compare Price to a broken car doesn't mean I literally think Price is a car.
Well, that all depends on the intelligence of the person who hears your analogy.

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05-21-2013, 01:44 PM
  #884
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He is definitely on the ropes at this point though, he simply needs to be better. He gets paid like a top goalie and there is little doubt he hasn't played like one since the 2011 playoffs. I was critical of the signing then and I still am to this day, I thought it was a massive over commitment to a player that has proved little to date. Price's problem is strictly between the ears, it's all in his head. It's a similar problem to Roberto Luongo at this point, the problem isn't the athlete's abilities so much as it is his confidence.

I would not be surprised at all if Bergevin is shopping him in some capacity, especially if he can land a goalie with similar career numbers that has a substantially easier contract to swallow.
He needs to be better no doubt. I was surprised by the contract as well, seemed pretty big, but we also had no other option so he had all the power at the negotiations.
That's why I have been saying that we need to draft a goalie these past two drafts.

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05-21-2013, 01:48 PM
  #885
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Originally Posted by onice View Post
Well, that all depends on the intelligence of the person who hears your analogy.
My bad, i thought for some reason that analogies are method used to transfer information from one's perspective to another. In this case i though it was that Agnostic felt like he was defrauded by Price. Must of missed the point of his "analogy".

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05-21-2013, 02:26 PM
  #886
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Quote:
Originally Posted by habsfanatics View Post
I personally think you have no idea what you are talking about. Like all other Price lovers his stats top five ranking is based on "what ifs". You marginalize Quick's performance and conclude Price would be better on Nashville than Rinne or better than Quick in LA.

Sounds like wishful thinking. Montreal had one of the best shot differentials in the NHL this season. Scoring chances against are largely associated with shots against. This fact is indisputable, when you give up more shots, you give up more scoring chances. You can talk about Defenses on paper until you're blue in the face. The results on the ice are what matters.

The Leafs were one of 3 teams out of 16 to make the playoffs with a negative shot differential. They were dead last of those who made it, in fact, they were last in the entire league. They made the playoffs largely off the back of Reimer and unsustainable shooting % from key players. Qualifying for the playoffs is largely related to shot differential.

There has been little evidence ever presented on shot quality having a measurable impact. The more you shoot, the more you score. Your arguments about the habs D being weak this year is a load of bunk.

Every team gives up scoring chances, the habs happened to give up less than 25 other teams, Price was simply not very good. The team was winning because they were playing better than their opponents, any average goaltender would most likely have netted the same results, in some cases, probably better. Budaj going 8-1-1 kind of disproves the bad D, Carey was the best player drivel that gets spewed on here each and every day. Although the sample size on Budaj is not really large enough to mean much when it is put together with the eye test and the team statistics which show the habs were driving the play for the most of the year, it's a pretty safe bet.

I prefer we judge players on what actually happens and not on what things would be if everything around them were different. They aren't, so we judge on what took place and Price was below average, a replacement level goalie would have garnered similar results.

Instead of posting nonsense about us giving up few shots, but giving up a disproportionate amount of scoring chances, prove it. I'm going to call shenanigans, I think instead of posting what you think happened based on your preconceived notions that perhaps you back up your claims once in awhile.

Based on the statistical evidence, the Leafs look as close to a lock to miss the playoffs next year as one can get. Shot differential is a pretty telling stat whether you choose to ignore it or not is entirely up to you, but back it up with truths instead of saying things like "this is how it is because I say so".

I am a Price supporter, I think he's generally a good to slightly better than good goalie, however, nothing in his history supports a claim to top 5. Saying you think he will be down the road because he is young and claiming he is right now are two different arguments, the latter being supported by nothing.
So correct me if I'm wrong habsfanatics, but what I feel like you're implying to me is that the defense, at no point during the season, was the issue for some games and that the entire issue with the Habs defensive shortcomings (shots against, goals against, etc) this season is placed entirely on the goalie, in fact only 1 goalie: Carey Price. Budaj played well, nothign to do with defense.

Obviously you don't watch ALL the games. Budaj had such a great record because for the most part, the defense in front of him played well for him. Down the stretch for Price, the defense played like utter crap.

As for shot differential, this is the only thing I can say. When looking at 1 statistic like SA, it's easy to come to certain conclusions, which in some cases are accurate, but in most cases are wrong. Did you notice that Montreal had one of the highest positive shot differentials in the NHL? Why is that you may ask, it is because our offense controlled the pace of a good majority of our games and when our opponent had the puck, they capitalized on some SCORING CHANCES that they had. Now I'm not saying the defense are at fault for these chances, in fact I believe that both the defense and the goalie are to blame for scoring chances that end up turning into goals. But scoring chances, for the most part, are the forwards and defence's part to blame. Last time I checked, the goalie didn't handle the puck all that often (although he may play the puck the odd time or give up some rebounds, with Price the rebounds aren't what killed him). Look at Penalties. Montreal was the third highest minor penalized team in the entire league. That has an effect on outcomes for games (take the Ryan White Ottawa Senators fiasco in the beginning of the season) as well. The point is, you look at one stat (shots against) and determine that because we had a low shot total, then the defense was good year round and that the goalie must have been the only issue.

As for why I believe Carey Price is a top 5 goalie? Let's ask this question. Out of the following goalies, who in their entirety over their career as a goalie based on technical skill, clutch, potential, etc. makes your top 5.

Hiller
Rask
Miller
Kiprusoff
Ward
Emery
Crawford
Varlamov
Bobrofsky
Lehtonen
Howard
Dubnyk
Markstrom
Quick
Bernier
Backstrom
Price
Rinne
Brodeur
Nabokov
Lundqvist
Anderson
Bryzgalov
Mason
Fleury
Vokoun
Niemi
Elliot
Halak
Bishop
Lindback
Reimer
Luongo
Schneider
Holtby
Neuvirth

For mine you have, in no particular order:

Quick
Rask
Lundqvist
Niemi
Price/Howard/Schneider/Rinne (all arguable for Top 5 IMO)

The things that all these goalies have in common besides Price: all have had strong defenses in front of them over certain periods of their career.

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05-21-2013, 02:26 PM
  #887
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Originally Posted by uiCk View Post
My bad, i thought for some reason that analogies are method used to transfer information from one's perspective to another. In this case i though it was that Agnostic felt like he was defrauded by Price. Must of missed the point of his "analogy".
First definition of analogy I came across with an example given:

a similarity between like features of two things, on which a comparison may be based: the analogy between the heart and a pump.

I'm guessing because of that analogy, you'll think you can get water from a heart or blood from a pump.

Agnostic's analogy was not about defrauding. It was about badly appraising value.

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05-21-2013, 02:48 PM
  #888
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Originally Posted by dmanfish90 View Post
So correct me if I'm wrong habsfanatics, but what I feel like you're implying to me is that the defense, at no point during the season, was the issue for some games and that the entire issue with the Habs defensive shortcomings (shots against, goals against, etc) this season is placed entirely on the goalie, in fact only 1 goalie: Carey Price. Budaj played well, nothign to do with defense.

Obviously you don't watch ALL the games. Budaj had such a great record because for the most part, the defense in front of him played well for him. Down the stretch for Price, the defense played like utter crap.

As for shot differential, this is the only thing I can say. When looking at 1 statistic like SA, it's easy to come to certain conclusions, which in some cases are accurate, but in most cases are wrong. Did you notice that Montreal had one of the highest positive shot differentials in the NHL? Why is that you may ask, it is because our offense controlled the pace of a good majority of our games and when our opponent had the puck, they capitalized on some SCORING CHANCES that they had. Now I'm not saying the defense are at fault for these chances, in fact I believe that both the defense and the goalie are to blame for scoring chances that end up turning into goals. But scoring chances, for the most part, are the forwards and defence's part to blame. Last time I checked, the goalie didn't handle the puck all that often (although he may play the puck the odd time or give up some rebounds, with Price the rebounds aren't what killed him). Look at Penalties. Montreal was the third highest minor penalized team in the entire league. That has an effect on outcomes for games (take the Ryan White Ottawa Senators fiasco in the beginning of the season) as well. The point is, you look at one stat (shots against) and determine that because we had a low shot total, then the defense was good year round and that the goalie must have been the only issue.

As for why I believe Carey Price is a top 5 goalie? Let's ask this question. Out of the following goalies, who in their entirety over their career as a goalie based on technical skill, clutch, potential, etc. makes your top 5.

Hiller
Rask
Miller
Kiprusoff
Ward
Emery
Crawford
Varlamov
Bobrofsky
Lehtonen
Howard
Dubnyk
Markstrom
Quick
Bernier
Backstrom
Price
Rinne
Brodeur
Nabokov
Lundqvist
Anderson
Bryzgalov
Mason
Fleury
Vokoun
Niemi
Elliot
Halak
Bishop
Lindback
Reimer
Luongo
Schneider
Holtby
Neuvirth

For mine you have, in no particular order:

Quick
Rask
Lundqvist
Niemi
Price/Howard/Schneider/Rinne (all arguable for Top 5 IMO)

The things that all these goalies have in common besides Price: all have had strong defenses in front of them over certain periods of their career.
huh?our d was fine this year.we were solid at 5 on 5 too.is it really that hard to admit that price hasnt lived up to expectations yet?

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05-21-2013, 02:54 PM
  #889
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After reading some of the pages, it's clear that Whitesnake, Haburger, Habsfan2k11, for the most part, are on the "Carey Price isn't even an arguable top 5 goalie".

I wonder what would happen if Price played on a team like the LAK the last two years. Obviously, you wannabe scouts know it all.

Ask any person in hockey (an analyst, a former coach, a former player, a former gm, a coach, a player, etc.) and ask them what they think about Carey Price. E-mail Glenn Healey, Kevin Weekes, Jamie McLennan (all former NHL goalies) and ask them what they think about Price overall and what they think of him as of now after this "horrendous" season (only horrendous thing about it was the last 8-10 games for CP31).

But continue believing the delusion that based on one "half-season" that CP31 is a terrible goalie. Show me all the stats from past seasons all you want, you're not going to make me think twice about Carey Price.

It's fans like you that make Carey want to leave. It's a common thing with knee-jerk reactions from fans and saying "these seasons he was terrible" when he wasn't and "this season in general he shat the bed the whole season" when him AND THE DEFENSE crapped it for like at most 8-10 games.

Next year, Carey's going to prove you all wrong, show you the Top 5 goalie he is and you're either going to eat crow or you're going to say "he has only had 2 good seasons" blah blah blah more anti-Price ******** etc.

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05-21-2013, 02:55 PM
  #890
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haburger View Post
huh?our d was fine this year.we were solid at 5 on 5 too.is it really that hard to admit that price hasnt lived up to expectations yet?
Our D was good in the last 8-10 games of the season? Really?

Is it really hard to admit that Price wasn't the only problem this season.

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05-21-2013, 03:11 PM
  #891
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Originally Posted by dmanfish90 View Post
After reading some of the pages, it's clear that Whitesnake, Haburger, Habsfan2k11, for the most part, are on the "Carey Price isn't even an arguable top 5 goalie".

I wonder what would happen if Price played on a team like the LAK the last two years. Obviously, you wannabe scouts know it all.

Ask any person in hockey (an analyst, a former coach, a former player, a former gm, a coach, a player, etc.) and ask them what they think about Carey Price. E-mail Glenn Healey, Kevin Weekes, Jamie McLennan (all former NHL goalies) and ask them what they think about Price overall and what they think of him as of now after this "horrendous" season (only horrendous thing about it was the last 8-10 games for CP31).

But continue believing the delusion that based on one "half-season" that CP31 is a terrible goalie. Show me all the stats from past seasons all you want, you're not going to make me think twice about Carey Price.

It's fans like you that make Carey want to leave. It's a common thing with knee-jerk reactions from fans and saying "these seasons he was terrible" when he wasn't and "this season in general he shat the bed the whole season" when him AND THE DEFENSE crapped it for like at most 8-10 games.

Next year, Carey's going to prove you all wrong, show you the Top 5 goalie he is and you're either going to eat crow or you're going to say "he has only had 2 good seasons" blah blah blah more anti-Price ******** etc.
Actually glen Healy provided the best ever line about Price.

"what has price done? He had an amazing 6 months in junior but what else has he done"

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05-21-2013, 03:15 PM
  #892
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Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
Actually glen Healy provided the best ever line about Price.

"what has price done? He had an amazing 6 months in junior but what else has he done"
Wait. I forgot Glenn Healy's a retard.

The guy was a career back-up and says **** like this LOL.

Don't e-mail Glenn Healy.

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05-21-2013, 03:28 PM
  #893
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Wait. I forgot Glenn Healy's a retard.

The guy was a career back-up and says **** like this LOL.

Don't e-mail Glenn Healy.
Ok, This made me

Off topic, I was kind of half listening to the studio 42 gang yesterday , can anyone confirm that I heard Healy actually say that Pavel Datsyuk was a hard worker but 'not all that talented' or something to that effect.

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05-21-2013, 03:50 PM
  #894
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Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
Actually glen Healy provided the best ever line about Price.

"what has price done? He had an amazing 6 months in junior but what else has he done"
You lost me when you mentioned Healy...

Boy, as a crowd are divided on the Price issue....for 40 games, we were awesome, and so was Price...and then, boom, a big boom...the whole team imploded...the whole team...

Give it rest folks, September will be here before you know it...for one, I am glad we have a Carey Price on our side...he will win us a Cup!!

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05-21-2013, 04:08 PM
  #895
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Originally Posted by BLONG7 View Post
You lost me when you mentioned Healy...

Boy, as a crowd are divided on the Price issue....for 40 games, we were awesome, and so was Price...and then, boom, a big boom...the whole team imploded...the whole team...

Give it rest folks, September will be here before you know it...for one, I am glad we have a Carey Price on our side...he will win us a Cup!!

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05-21-2013, 04:25 PM
  #896
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Originally Posted by dmanfish90 View Post
After reading some of the pages, it's clear that Whitesnake, Haburger, Habsfan2k11, for the most part, are on the "Carey Price isn't even an arguable top 5 goalie".

I wonder what would happen if Price played on a team like the LAK the last two years. Obviously, you wannabe scouts know it all.

Ask any person in hockey (an analyst, a former coach, a former player, a former gm, a coach, a player, etc.) and ask them what they think about Carey Price. E-mail Glenn Healey, Kevin Weekes, Jamie McLennan (all former NHL goalies) and ask them what they think about Price overall and what they think of him as of now after this "horrendous" season (only horrendous thing about it was the last 8-10 games for CP31).

But continue believing the delusion that based on one "half-season" that CP31 is a terrible goalie. Show me all the stats from past seasons all you want, you're not going to make me think twice about Carey Price.

It's fans like you that make Carey want to leave. It's a common thing with knee-jerk reactions from fans and saying "these seasons he was terrible" when he wasn't and "this season in general he shat the bed the whole season" when him AND THE DEFENSE crapped it for like at most 8-10 games.

Next year, Carey's going to prove you all wrong, show you the Top 5 goalie he is and you're either going to eat crow or you're going to say "he has only had 2 good seasons" blah blah blah more anti-Price ******** etc.
A top 5 goalie making 6.5 million a year isn't supposed to be carried by the team. He is supposed to contribute to the team, to make the team better in its own right.

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05-21-2013, 04:29 PM
  #897
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A top 5 goalie making 6.5 million a year isn't supposed to be carried by the team. He is supposed to contribute to the team, to make the team better in its own right.
That's actually why I was so against the contract length and size. He didn't earn it - and I'm a big believer in Price.

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05-21-2013, 04:45 PM
  #898
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You lost me when you mentioned Healy...

Boy, as a crowd are divided on the Price issue....for 40 games, we were awesome, and so was Price...and then, boom, a big boom...the whole team imploded...the whole team...

Give it rest folks, September will be here before you know it...for one, I am glad we have a Carey Price on our side...he will win us a Cup!!
September is one thing, the playoffs are another. Even there, career regular season stats (NHL):
Save percentage: .915
GAA: 2.56

Playoffs (NHL):
Save percentage: .905
GAA: 2.90

Of those 5 playoffs, only twice has he had a save percentage above .900, and one of those times was barely, at .901

It's also been inconsistent with the playoffs at above .900 2 years apart.

As for the regular season, we can talk about the team in front of the goalie, but all we've used are good goalies on better teams as a comparable. Now, for the past 5 years, Montreal has made the playoffs for the most part. So let's take a really bad team with a top 5 goalie. I took Luongo as the sample size is similar (5 years) when he was in Florida and at a similar age.

In the regular season, with far worst teams than Montreal have had, he posted an average of .920 save percentage.

So again, Price's career regular season stats are decent, not great, certainly not top 5 in the league if you ask me, but I respect that some still believe he is, but those playoff numbers are not good.

And you're right, everyone seems to be divided on the issue.


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05-21-2013, 04:53 PM
  #899
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Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
That's actually why I was so against the contract length and size. He didn't earn it - and I'm a big believer in Price.
The unfortunate thing is that Price's confidence just seems so frail. When he's on his game, he can stay on (as seen in his just chill year), but he can't falter once or he may trail off. He's paid to be a difference maker for the team regardless of the defense, but he clearly needs the help.

If Price gets a better defensive group, he can bounce back... hopefully to the point where he won't sulk after a bad game or two

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05-21-2013, 04:58 PM
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Sorinth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post

A top 5 goalie making 6.5 million a year isn't supposed to be carried by the team. He is supposed to contribute to the team, to make the team better in its own right.
Are you saying Price held the team back this season? He was a contributer any way you slice it. Now if you don't think he contributed enough for his salary, then fine but maybe you should look at your expectations because they may not be realistic.

All you can ask from any goalie is for him to give you a chance to win. A better goalie can give you a better chance to win, but arguably what's more important is the number of games a season he gives you where you have that chance to win.

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