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The Carey Price Discussion Thread (Part 4)

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05-21-2013, 04:05 PM
  #901
Sorinth
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Originally Posted by Jerk Store View Post
September is one thing, the playoffs are another. Even there, career regular season stats (NHL):
Save percentage: .915
GAA: 2.56

Playoffs (NHL):
Save percentage: .905
GAA: 2.90

Of those 5 playoffs, only twice has he had a save percentage above .900, and one of those times was barely, at .901

It's also been inconsistent with the playoffs at above .900 2 years apart.

As for the regular season, we can talk about the team in front of the goalie, but all we've used are good goalies on better teams as a comparable. Now, for the past 5 years, Montreal has made the playoffs for the most part. So let's take a really bad team with a top 5 goalie. I took Luongo as the sample size is similar (5 years) when he was in Florida and at a similar age.

In the regular season, with far worst teams than Montreal have had, he posted an average of .920 save percentage.

So again, Price's career regular season stats are decent, not great, certainly not top 5 in the league if you ask me, but I respect that some still believe he is, but those playoff numbers are not good.

And you're right, everyone seems to be divided on the issue.
You can't look purely at the save percentage because all goalies that face a high number of shots have good save percentages. If we base it only on save% then Brodeur was pretty average because he rarely was the leader in save% but that was because the Devils kept the number of shots down not because he wasn't a great goaltender.

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05-21-2013, 04:07 PM
  #902
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You can't look purely at the save percentage because all goalies that face a high number of shots have good save percentages. If we base it only on save% then Brodeur was pretty average because he rarely was the leader in save% but that was because the Devils kept the number of shots down not because he wasn't a great goaltender.
Fair enough, but you can't say those playoff numbers inspire confidence though, right? Not for me anyway...

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05-21-2013, 04:31 PM
  #903
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Fair enough, but you can't say those playoff numbers inspire confidence though, right? Not for me anyway...
No the playoff numbers don't look very good but I'm not a big believer in the whole playoff choker theory. I remember when people said Datsyuk & Zetterberg were playoff chokers and would never lead Detroit anywhere and we all know how that turned out.

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05-21-2013, 05:05 PM
  #904
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No the playoff numbers don't look very good but I'm not a big believer in the whole playoff choker theory. I remember when people said Datsyuk & Zetterberg were playoff chokers and would never lead Detroit anywhere and we all know how that turned out.
Well, there are guys who elevate their play. In recent cup runs, Iginla, Richards, Pronger, Roloson, Ward, Alfredsson, Thomas, Quick come to mind. The players listed were a big reason their respective teams made it to the finals, they were absolute beasts. 4 of the players listed are goaltenders.

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05-21-2013, 05:22 PM
  #905
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No the playoff numbers don't look very good but I'm not a big believer in the whole playoff choker theory. I remember when people said Datsyuk & Zetterberg were playoff chokers and would never lead Detroit anywhere and we all know how that turned out.
He's not a playoff choker. He's jut not good in the playoffs and it seems the higher the stakes, the more he flinches. Just my observation of him.

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05-21-2013, 05:26 PM
  #906
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Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
You can't look purely at the save percentage because all goalies that face a high number of shots have good save percentages. If we base it only on save% then Brodeur was pretty average because he rarely was the leader in save% but that was because the Devils kept the number of shots down not because he wasn't a great goaltender.
Then Price should have a top 10 GAA, but he doesn't have that either. He needs to play BETTER. Lets not look at the stats for a second. His lateral movement is all over the place. He stays on his knees way too much. He doesn't track the puck. He doesn't seem to be able to have a short memory either. Of course, there are a lot of things he does very well too. If he was a middle of the road goalie and expectations reflected that then there would be no issue. The problem is Price was a blue chip prospect that at this point has not lived up to his hype or contract. I expect him to bounce back and all this talk will be forgotten.

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05-21-2013, 05:28 PM
  #907
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I really don't see finding a comparable goalie to Price a problem.

Halak right now has way less value then Price and he's probably on the market.

Price is not that hard to replace.
Gonna have to disagree with you on that one.

Halak has barely played any hockey in the past couple of years, if you think he's on the trade market, it's not because he's this big goalie with so much potential.

Goalies that have Price's potential and are young along with his experience, simply don't get traded.
There's two options here if we trade Price, either we trade for an older keeper like Luongo, or Bryzgalov, or we get younger unproven goalies like a Ben Bishop.

Making lateral moves are pointless, and weakening one position to improve another is a dumb idea.

Trading for that veteran goalie would simply be stupid. They come with baggage and already big contracts. We know they also won't really be all that great. No point in making such a trade.
So option one is pretty pointless.

The second option is one that makes more sense, however it's a very high risk. If you trade for a goalie that's young and unproven, then we can risk having what happened to St-Louis with Halak getting injured and not living up to the expectation happen to us. Price is just 25, and you know he can hold the fort over 65 games. He is experienced, but still is young, goalies tend to develop later, even guys like Quick didn't blossom until 26.
I seriously doubt Bergevin is willing to gamble on such a high risk for now.

You're not going to find a young, proven, consistent, experienced, and cheap goalie. It's just not going to happen.

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05-21-2013, 05:32 PM
  #908
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Originally Posted by dmanfish90 View Post
After reading some of the pages, it's clear that Whitesnake, Haburger, Habsfan2k11, for the most part, are on the "Carey Price isn't even an arguable top 5 goalie".

I wonder what would happen if Price played on a team like the LAK the last two years. Obviously, you wannabe scouts know it all.

Ask any person in hockey (an analyst, a former coach, a former player, a former gm, a coach, a player, etc.) and ask them what they think about Carey Price. E-mail Glenn Healey, Kevin Weekes, Jamie McLennan (all former NHL goalies) and ask them what they think about Price overall and what they think of him as of now after this "horrendous" season (only horrendous thing about it was the last 8-10 games for CP31).

But continue believing the delusion that based on one "half-season" that CP31 is a terrible goalie. Show me all the stats from past seasons all you want, you're not going to make me think twice about Carey Price.

It's fans like you that make Carey want to leave. It's a common thing with knee-jerk reactions from fans and saying "these seasons he was terrible" when he wasn't and "this season in general he shat the bed the whole season" when him AND THE DEFENSE crapped it for like at most 8-10 games.

Next year, Carey's going to prove you all wrong, show you the Top 5 goalie he is and you're either going to eat crow or you're going to say "he has only had 2 good seasons" blah blah blah more anti-Price ******** etc.
The only thing you are saying in that post is what I keep saying all along. Price is a top 5 goalie based on....POTENTIAL. Not on actual play. So that's what I believe. Pretty sure that your next line will be. Price is the best goalie in the NHL....that hasn't won anything in the NHL. Fine...if it suits you, I,m fine with everything that makes you happy. But I can't be in that group. Now...so many things here...that I thought we were close to the end but you keep mentioning things that are just so worth of replies...that it,s too hard for me to resist.

Us wannabe scouts know just as much than you. What makes you know it more? We are not the ones saying we hold the truth...but your reply do seems to intend that you do. Fine, clearly, we can't compete with the truth. Truth being everything you write and say. And yes....we've all been asking everybody. We've all been hearing every expert out there about Price....we've alll heard that everybody but Halak's mother said that we should keep Price and so on....But what we ALSO heard was that every single one of them were mostly talking about....POTENTIAL. Something the biggest of haters and wannabe scouts do still believe in....but just can't pretend that potential is actually the same than REAL RESULTS.

It is sad really 'cause at one point you do pretend as if YOU ARE THE TRUTH...and goes on on a rant, point the fingers towards a few people including myself and say that we think he's a TERRIBLE goalie...which we obviously didn't. Which then screws your entire way of thinking 'cause if your point is based on what people didn't say...what's your point really?

So it's fans like us to make him leave....First....and this is getting funnier by the second...WHO WANTS TO LEAVE? I thought that only the haters thought that Price comments was him wanting to leave...so now you believe he wants out? Things change quite fast around here. Besides.....even if that was true...you think it's people writing on a board that IF they'd saw Price would just either ignore him or salute him that are actually the reason why Price would want to leave? 'Cause frankly, when I do to the Bell Centre, I never booed our own players. When I meet players, I either salute them, acknowledge them, or if I don't like them, ignore them. I don't harrass them, neither do I even ask them for autographs. So again I ask...and me writing on a board makes him want to leave? Because I'm just asking for my supposed FRANCHISE player to be a franchise player? To actually make his team around him better and not wait for the others to make him better? If so...well CLEARLY he is way more fragile that I thought he was.....

And your last statement takes the prize....So next year Carey will SHOW us. Well...how do you know that? If his play is directly related to who,s in front of him....did we make changes lately that I'm not aware of? Didn't we just learn that Emelin is not here till November and probably beyond? Isn't that defense, right now, just as good (or as bad, take your pick) as it was 3 weeks ago? Come on man...you're making it way too easy.

As far as eating crow....again, it has nothing to do with that. We are discussing what he has DONE to be named a top 5 goalie. IF he does well next year, we'll say....HE DOES WELL THIS YEAR. Or "it might finally be the start to something great"...or "with a great upcomiong playoffs, based on how great this regular season was, he will solidify his position as a top 5 goalie" and so on...But then...as much as your anti-Price people will probably have all the answers....what will be yours if he doesn't do as well as expected? Oh yeah..."The defense sucks...." But then, it shouldn't be as you've ALREADY STATED that he'd be great next season. But what he will do, in no way, does that make what he did do this year better. Your point applies ONLY to people who has already given up on the kid. Or wanting to trade him already for a bag of pucks based on how he sucks, how terrible he is and so on...Which brings the question...WHO ARE YOU TALKING TO? Who in here has stated all those things?


Last edited by Whitesnake: 05-21-2013 at 06:12 PM.
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05-21-2013, 05:37 PM
  #909
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Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
Then Price should have a top 10 GAA, but he doesn't have that either. He needs to play BETTER. Lets not look at the stats for a second. His lateral movement is all over the place. He stays on his knees way too much. He doesn't track the puck. He doesn't seem to be able to have a short memory either. Of course, there are a lot of things he does very well too. If he was a middle of the road goalie and expectations reflected that then there would be no issue. The problem is Price was a blue chip prospect that at this point has not lived up to his hype or contract. I expect him to bounce back and all this talk will be forgotten.
Price does need to be better no question about that. But I'm not sure you can really say he hasn't lived up to his blue chip status or contract. He's considered by many to be the front runner for Team Canada. That's pretty bluechip. And I don't know many teams that would not have signed Price to that contract. It sucks that we have to spend so much on a goalie, because you can find lots of great deals in the short/medium term but that's what a goalie of his calibre costs long term.

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05-21-2013, 05:41 PM
  #910
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Well, there are guys who elevate their play. In recent cup runs, Iginla, Richards, Pronger, Roloson, Ward, Alfredsson, Thomas, Quick come to mind. The players listed were a big reason their respective teams made it to the finals, they were absolute beasts. 4 of the players listed are goaltenders.
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Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
He's not a playoff choker. He's jut not good in the playoffs and it seems the higher the stakes, the more he flinches. Just my observation of him.
My point is just that often times someone labeled a playoff choker goes on to win it all and now they are suddenly playoff warriors. This is not just about Price/Goalies.

There's so much luck involved in an incredible playoff run that I have a hard time attributing it to anything more than chance. Even Roy who many consider one of the most clutch goalies of all time had plenty of playoffs where he was average or worse. Given time I think Price will get one of those playoffs.

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05-21-2013, 06:04 PM
  #911
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Originally Posted by dmanfish90 View Post
After reading some of the pages, it's clear that Whitesnake, Haburger, Habsfan2k11, for the most part, are on the "Carey Price isn't even an arguable top 5 goalie".

I wonder what would happen if Price played on a team like the LAK the last two years. Obviously, you wannabe scouts know it all.

Ask any person in hockey (an analyst, a former coach, a former player, a former gm, a coach, a player, etc.) and ask them what they think about Carey Price. E-mail Glenn Healey, Kevin Weekes, Jamie McLennan (all former NHL goalies) and ask them what they think about Price overall and what they think of him as of now after this "horrendous" season (only horrendous thing about it was the last 8-10 games for CP31).

But continue believing the delusion that based on one "half-season" that CP31 is a terrible goalie. Show me all the stats from past seasons all you want, you're not going to make me think twice about Carey Price.

It's fans like you that make Carey want to leave. It's a common thing with knee-jerk reactions from fans and saying "these seasons he was terrible" when he wasn't and "this season in general he shat the bed the whole season" when him AND THE DEFENSE crapped it for like at most 8-10 games.

Next year, Carey's going to prove you all wrong, show you the Top 5 goalie he is and you're either going to eat crow or you're going to say "he has only had 2 good seasons" blah blah blah more anti-Price ******** etc.
Keep believing that the posters you've listed in your opening paragraph have said anything even remotely approaching the words you're putting in their mouths with that bolded section... Blah blah, indeed.

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05-21-2013, 06:29 PM
  #912
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My point is just that often times someone labeled a playoff choker goes on to win it all and now they are suddenly playoff warriors. This is not just about Price/Goalies.

There's so much luck involved in an incredible playoff run that I have a hard time attributing it to anything more than chance. Even Roy who many consider one of the most clutch goalies of all time had plenty of playoffs where he was average or worse. Given time I think Price will get one of those playoffs.
Dude, Roy was excellent in the playoffs. Did he have some bad games? Yes. But he was good to great in the great majority of them. The guy has carried multiple teams to Stanley Cups. He is regarded as the greatest money goalie ever. I don't even understand why you'd bring his name up in this discussion.

I have a hard time reading posts putting down Roy's play just to give Carey a pass.

Luck is part of a good playoff run, but not really for a goalie. You're either good or you're not. There's no luck in bad goals. A bad goal is a bad goal. Price has let in too many in his short playoff history. Once he starts playing good hockey consistently in the playoffs and his poor games are few and far between...he will be given many passes for letting in weak goals. Sort of like how Lundqvist and Quick aren't blasted when they let in weak goals. Why? Because both goalies are absolute studs and have proven that they can carry a team when need be. Price isn't at that level yet...not close. Which is fine...but he's paid like that.

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05-21-2013, 06:30 PM
  #913
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food for thought as john lu's text made me think of what Roy said earlier about price. he's on his knees too easily n is on his stomach when moving laterally this seems to be when he injured himself during his slump because he was slower going into butterfly n closing his 5hole. makes sense that he tweaked his groin

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05-21-2013, 06:35 PM
  #914
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Originally Posted by dmanfish90 View Post
After reading some of the pages, it's clear that Whitesnake, Haburger, Habsfan2k11, for the most part, are on the "Carey Price isn't even an arguable top 5 goalie".

I wonder what would happen if Price played on a team like the LAK the last two years. Obviously, you wannabe scouts know it all.

Ask any person in hockey (an analyst, a former coach, a former player, a former gm, a coach, a player, etc.) and ask them what they think about Carey Price. E-mail Glenn Healey, Kevin Weekes, Jamie McLennan (all former NHL goalies) and ask them what they think about Price overall and what they think of him as of now after this "horrendous" season (only horrendous thing about it was the last 8-10 games for CP31).

But continue believing the delusion that based on one "half-season" that CP31 is a terrible goalie. Show me all the stats from past seasons all you want, you're not going to make me think twice about Carey Price.

It's fans like you that make Carey want to leave. It's a common thing with knee-jerk reactions from fans and saying "these seasons he was terrible" when he wasn't and "this season in general he shat the bed the whole season" when him AND THE DEFENSE crapped it for like at most 8-10 games.

Next year, Carey's going to prove you all wrong, show you the Top 5 goalie he is and you're either going to eat crow or you're going to say "he has only had 2 good seasons" blah blah blah more anti-Price ******** etc.
He isn't a top 5 goalie.

If Price wants to leave because fans think he isn't playing as well as he should be then he can go. He will never be successful with that kind of mindset.

Price is regarded as a top goalie based on POTENTIAL! Anytime these "analysts" talk about him they always bring up Juniors, AHL and playing pretty decent hockey as a rookie and how his potential is through the roof. There's really never much talk about his actual production.

You're a delusional fanboy. You think all this talk is based on the 3 week stretch of poor play from Price? He has been up and down his entire career. I'm more angry at Gainey for that, but the fact is he is not consistent, but is paid to be consistent.

Continue to blame the defense for weak goals, not tracking pucks, being on his knees 24/7, flopping like a fish, having mental lapses, etc.


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05-21-2013, 06:39 PM
  #915
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Sigh... Some people will defend Price regardless of how poorly he does... No point debating more. It's like a girl who won't leave an abusive boyfriend because she "loves him".
She can't leave him, her CD's are in his truck

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05-21-2013, 06:43 PM
  #916
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Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
He isn't a top 5 goalie.

If Price wants to leave because fans think he isn't playing as well as he should be then he can go. He will never be successful with that kind of mindset.

Price is regarded as a top goalie based on POTENTIAL! Anytime these "analysts" talk about him they always bring up Juniors, AHL and playing pretty decent hockey as a rookie and how his potential is through the roof. There's really never much talk about his actual production.

You're a delusional fanboy. You think all this talk is based on the 3 week stretch of poor play from Price? He has been up and down his entire career. I'm more angry at Gainey for that, but the fact is he is not consistent, but is paid to be consistent.

Continue to blame the defense for weak goals, not tracking pucks, being on his knees 24/7, flopping like a fish, having mental lapses, etc.

I'd really like to hear who says he is a top 5 goalie based on potential. TSN had him in their top 50 last year, with 3 goalies ahead of him, and this year they said he just missed out. TSN also had a halfway point of the season show this year, and what do you know he was ranked 1st (or 2nd, cant remember is Anderson was Ahead of him) in the East. This should also show that he indeed was having a very good season before the collapse. Not to mention the coaches in the east voted him as the best (but I am aware that to you this doesn't matter at all).

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05-21-2013, 06:49 PM
  #917
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She can't leave him, her CD's are in his truck
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05-21-2013, 06:51 PM
  #918
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I'd really like to hear who says he is a top 5 goalie based on potential. TSN had him in their top 50 last year, with 3 goalies ahead of him, and this year they said he just missed out. TSN also had a halfway point of the season show this year, and what do you know he was ranked 1st (or 2nd, cant remember is Anderson was Ahead of him) in the East. This should also show that he indeed was having a very good season before the collapse. Not to mention the coaches in the east voted him as the best (but I am aware that to you this doesn't matter at all).
Welp...might as well close the thread. TSN has spoken!

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05-21-2013, 06:58 PM
  #919
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So correct me if I'm wrong habsfanatics, but what I feel like you're implying to me is that the defense, at no point during the season, was the issue for some games and that the entire issue with the Habs defensive shortcomings (shots against, goals against, etc) this season is placed entirely on the goalie, in fact only 1 goalie: Carey Price. Budaj played well, nothign to do with defense.

Obviously you don't watch ALL the games. Budaj had such a great record because for the most part, the defense in front of him played well for him. Down the stretch for Price, the defense played like utter crap.

As for shot differential, this is the only thing I can say. When looking at 1 statistic like SA, it's easy to come to certain conclusions, which in some cases are accurate, but in most cases are wrong. Did you notice that Montreal had one of the highest positive shot differentials in the NHL? Why is that you may ask, it is because our offense controlled the pace of a good majority of our games and when our opponent had the puck, they capitalized on some SCORING CHANCES that they had. Now I'm not saying the defense are at fault for these chances, in fact I believe that both the defense and the goalie are to blame for scoring chances that end up turning into goals. But scoring chances, for the most part, are the forwards and defence's part to blame. Last time I checked, the goalie didn't handle the puck all that often (although he may play the puck the odd time or give up some rebounds, with Price the rebounds aren't what killed him). Look at Penalties. Montreal was the third highest minor penalized team in the entire league. That has an effect on outcomes for games (take the Ryan White Ottawa Senators fiasco in the beginning of the season) as well. The point is, you look at one stat (shots against) and determine that because we had a low shot total, then the defense was good year round and that the goalie must have been the only issue.

As for why I believe Carey Price is a top 5 goalie? Let's ask this question. Out of the following goalies, who in their entirety over their career as a goalie based on technical skill, clutch, potential, etc. makes your top 5.

Hiller
Rask
Miller
Kiprusoff
Ward
Emery
Crawford
Varlamov
Bobrofsky
Lehtonen
Howard
Dubnyk
Markstrom
Quick
Bernier
Backstrom
Price
Rinne
Brodeur
Nabokov
Lundqvist
Anderson
Bryzgalov
Mason
Fleury
Vokoun
Niemi
Elliot
Halak
Bishop
Lindback
Reimer
Luongo
Schneider
Holtby
Neuvirth

For mine you have, in no particular order:

Quick
Rask
Lundqvist
Niemi
Price/Howard/Schneider/Rinne (all arguable for Top 5 IMO)

The things that all these goalies have in common besides Price: all have had strong defenses in front of them over certain periods of their career.
All the things you implied I said are incorrect. I never said that the sole reason we lost games was because of one goalie, specifically Carey Price.

What I did say, was that our shot differential was top tier in the entire league. The correlation between shot differential and qualifying for the playoffs is pretty astounding. I was debunking the myth that we gave up an extraordinary amount of scoring chances despite the low shot totals. It simply isn't true. Budaj, for the most part played under the same D and won 8 out of 10 starts. Not to say Budaj is a better goalie than Price, I don't believe that to be the case. His sample size is small and he has a history that can't be ignored, however, he played well this year, but the strong D was primarily responsible for that. Not Budaj himself.

There has been study after study done that shows shot quality as a whole has very little meaning. Shots generated is the driver force to goals. We gave up the 5th fewest, if you honestly believe our D gave up the 5th fewest shots, but the 5th most scoring chances, or whatever snake oil you're trying to sell, You are full of it, plain and simple.

I've watched every habs game for the last 10 years aside for one that a missed the first period of, this season. Try again.

We had the shot differential strongly in our favor even though we led plenty of games. The score plays a factor in Shot differential as teams leading tend to get out shot as they either sit back or the trailing team pushes forward.

What we seen during the meltdown was a goalie spotting the other team a 3 goal lead before the end of the first period, sometimes on 4 shots. From this point forward there is going to be a disproportionate amount of odd man rushes as the team who spotted the 3 goal lead now has to take risks they normally wouldn't take. They looked bad, but Price contributed greatly as to why they looked bad. They were playing 1, 2, 3 behind 10minutes into the first.

It sounds to me like your position is entirely based on emotion and not on merit. I'm beginning to believe it was you who didn't watch the games. I don't believe what everyone tells me just because they tell me it. I do this real Neanderthal thing, called thinking.


Last edited by habsfanatics: 05-21-2013 at 07:09 PM.
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05-21-2013, 06:58 PM
  #920
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Welp...might as well close the thread. TSN has spoken!
Figured you'd say that. All hail the all-knowing hockeyfan2k11.

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05-21-2013, 06:59 PM
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the great Dane!
I wasn't sure if you'd get the reference or not.

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05-21-2013, 07:04 PM
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You can't look purely at the save percentage because all goalies that face a high number of shots have good save percentages. If we base it only on save% then Brodeur was pretty average because he rarely was the leader in save% but that was because the Devils kept the number of shots down not because he wasn't a great goaltender.
NJD notoriously under count shots in their home rink.

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05-21-2013, 07:05 PM
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NJD notoriously under count shots in their home rink.
Id like some proof

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05-21-2013, 07:11 PM
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Id like some proof
If you want proof, go dig it up, it's easily verifiable, I don't feel like giving history lessons here. The information is readily available.

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05-21-2013, 07:46 PM
  #925
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I'd really like to hear who says he is a top 5 goalie based on potential. TSN had him in their top 50 last year, with 3 goalies ahead of him, and this year they said he just missed out. TSN also had a halfway point of the season show this year, and what do you know he was ranked 1st (or 2nd, cant remember is Anderson was Ahead of him) in the East. This should also show that he indeed was having a very good season before the collapse. Not to mention the coaches in the east voted him as the best (but I am aware that to you this doesn't matter at all).
what matters are results.and by that i mean winning.who cares if he is voted best in some random poll.at the end of the day all that matters is delivering wins on a consistent basis .at 6 mil per i EXPECT him to deliver and carry the team.he has not done that.

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