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Harder to Acquire - Franchise 1C or 1D?

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05-21-2013, 05:04 PM
  #1
Rorschach
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Harder to Acquire - Franchise 1C or 1D?

I believe these to player roles are the toughest to fill and have the most value in the game.

I feel that a true 1D is harder to get. 1C is not far behind.

I define "get" as trading for or signing as a UFA. I'm not counting the draft because no player comes straight out of the draft as a franchise player except for a very small handful...nearly all centers and one defenseman.

I've seen Boston unload two 1C's, Tampa trade Richards and then NYR acquire him as UFA. The only 1Ds I can recall being acquirable in the last 20 years are Niedermayer UFA and Pronger via trade.

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05-21-2013, 05:06 PM
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IrishPaulie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rorschach View Post
I believe these to player roles are the toughest to fill and have the most value in the game.

I feel that a true 1D is harder to get. 1C is not far behind.

I define "get" as trading for or signing as a UFA. I'm not counting the draft because no player comes straight out of the draft as a franchise player except for a very small handful...nearly all centers and one defenseman.

I've seen Boston unload two 1C's, Tampa trade Richards and then NYR acquire him as UFA. The only 1Ds I can recall being acquirable in the last 20 years are Niedermayer UFA and Pronger via trade.
Chara and Savard were both signed as free agents by the Bruins in 2006.

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05-21-2013, 05:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rorschach View Post

I've seen Boston unload two 1C's, Tampa trade Richards and then NYR acquire him as UFA. The only 1Ds I can recall being acquirable in the last 20 years are Niedermayer UFA and Pronger via trade.
It should be pointed out Pronger was traded 3 times. lol

Also as other pointed out Chara was signed as a UFA. Suter was also signed as a UFA last summer.

Niedermeyer, Pronger, Suter and Chara are/were all Norris caliber defensemen

On the flip side the only Hart caliber center I can think that was traded in recent memory was Joe Thornton

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05-21-2013, 05:24 PM
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id say there are fewer true #1 D's out there tbh

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05-21-2013, 05:27 PM
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Dolph Ziggler
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Pronger was traded 3 times.
Chara was signed as a UFA
Suter was signed as a UFA
Weber was almost signed away as an RFA
Niedermeyer was signed as a UFA

For the way he was paid, I suppose you could count Bouwmeester too, at least the way he was valued, even if he never played up to that level.

I would say the center is harder to acquire.

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05-21-2013, 05:33 PM
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Originally Posted by KaossKing View Post
id say there are fewer true #1 D's out there tbh
Depends what your definition of a "true" #1 center is though

Personally I would consider Crosby, Stamkos, Toews centers to build your team around

After that you have a second tier of very good but I wouldn't consider then in that top tier(say like Backstrom, Richards, Staal etc)

Much like a "true #1D" it's very hard to get that franchise center(infact most of them are drafted top 3 and stay with the team for a long long time).

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05-21-2013, 05:34 PM
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It should be pointed out Pronger was traded 3 times. lol

Also as other pointed out Chara was signed as a UFA. Suter was also signed as a UFA last summer.

Niedermeyer, Pronger, Suter and Chara are/were all Norris caliber defensemen

On the flip side the only Hart caliber center I can think that was traded in recent memory was Joe Thornton
Niedermeyer, Suter, and Chara weren't trade either (after they became #1 D), so what's your point? Not to mention that Hart is not a center exclusive award, and historically a large portion of them are non-centers. So by using the "hart caliber", you are artificially limiting the number of centers to the very few top ones that rise not just to the top of their position, but to that among all players.

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05-21-2013, 05:35 PM
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Originally Posted by letowskie View Post
Niedermeyer, Suter, and Chara weren't trade either (after they became #1 D), so what's your point? Not to mention that Hart is not a center exclusive award, and historically a large portion of them are non-centers. So by using the "hart caliber", you are artificially limiting the number of centers to the very few top ones that rise not just to the top of their position, but to that among all players.
Well how about this Pronger, Neidermeyer and Chara are all Hart caliber defensemen(that takes Suter out of the equations basically) with Thornton being the only Hart caliber forward traded in recent memory.

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05-21-2013, 05:38 PM
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Depends what your definition of a "true" #1 center is though

Personally I would consider Crosby, Stamkos, Toews centers to build your team around

After that you have a second tier of very good but I wouldn't consider then in that top tier(say like Backstrom, Richards, Staal etc)

Much like a "true #1D" it's very hard to get that franchise center(infact most of them are drafted top 3 and stay with the team for a long long time).
That is a bogus category, since by definition, vast majority of teams cannot have #1 centers period, even though there are clearly more contenders than "#1 centers" by your definition. If you don't think guys like Malkin, Giroux, Kopitar, Datsyuk, Tavarez, Spezza, Sedin, Backstrom, etc, etc as #1 centers, you should probably get your head checked.

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05-21-2013, 05:39 PM
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You don't need a true #1 D to succeed in this league. However good luck succeeding without a true #1C.

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05-21-2013, 05:40 PM
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D are a tougher find these days top to bottom. There are a few doughnut teams though which speaks to the need for centers as well. Looking ahead, I think 40 goal scoring wingers will be in quite short supply as very few good ones have been draft in the last five years.

I am a firm believer in building from the back out as the time to maturity for a G>D>C>W. All things equal you should draft your bluechips in that order to ensure they are all ready at the same time. Teams should really draft the goalies as they anticipate a rebuild not in the midst of one. Example: Vancouver and San Jose.

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05-21-2013, 05:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boredmale View Post
Well how about this Pronger, Neidermeyer and Chara are all Hart caliber defensemen(that takes Suter out of the equations basically) with Thornton being the only Hart caliber forward traded in recent memory.
Chara has never been traded since he became a top D (he was traded when he was a prospect), Niedermeyer has never been traded period.

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05-21-2013, 05:42 PM
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Originally Posted by FreeRadicals View Post
You don't need a true #1 D to succeed in this league. However good luck succeeding without a true #1C.
You can't predict an elite D. You can predict a top 3 D. You draft a bunch of those hoping one goes Super Nova.

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05-21-2013, 05:44 PM
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Originally Posted by ginner classic View Post
D are a tougher find these days top to bottom. There are a few doughnut teams though which speaks to the need for centers as well. Looking ahead, I think 40 goal scoring wingers will be in quite short supply as very few good ones have been draft in the last five years.

I am a firm believer in building from the back out as the time to maturity for a G>D>C>W. All things equal you should draft your bluechips in that order to ensure they are all ready at the same time. Teams should really draft the goalies as they anticipate a rebuild not in the midst of one. Example: Vancouver and San Jose.
That makes a lot of sense.

Although the problem is that, it is very difficult to predict the career potential of goalies when you draft them as 18 yo junior players. There don't seem to be that much correlation between goaltenders that are highly drafted and ones that end up dominant, compared to other positions.

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05-21-2013, 05:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by letowskie View Post
Chara has never been traded since he became a top D (he was traded when he was a prospect), Niedermeyer has never been traded period.
per the opening post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rorschach View Post
I define "get" as trading for or signing as a UFA.
But if we are just going on the basis of trades Prongers 3 > Thornton being traded 1 time

If we are going lower tier if we are going to count Brad Richards(both traded and UFA) we might as well count Dan Boyle as well. What about Brian Cambell who was traded 2 times(UFA once). Byfuglien, Phaneuf, Beauchemin, Shattenkirk are also on the borderline #1 guy list(and I am fairly certain I am missing many players who were either traded or signed as a UFA who would be borderline #1 defensemen)

ON a whole it just seems like top forwards are hoarded more then top defensemen


Last edited by boredmale: 05-21-2013 at 05:55 PM.
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05-21-2013, 05:51 PM
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Franchise centers are much harder to obtain. Thornton has been the only one traded in like forever, and he arguably wasn't a franchise player yet.

People like Datsyuk, Toews, Stamkos, Spezza will never be traded.

Pronger, Niedermayer, Chara, Suter arguably even Byfuglien could have been franchise if he wasn't in wpg.

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05-21-2013, 05:51 PM
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Originally Posted by boredmale View Post
per the opening post
No, apparently you can't read either;

It only said Niedermeyer via UFA. You said that he was among the players traded.

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05-21-2013, 05:58 PM
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Originally Posted by letowskie View Post
No, apparently you can't read either;

It only said Niedermeyer via UFA. You said that he was among the players traded.
I probably should have been clearer, I was pointing out Thornton was traded not the other 3 defensemen I mentioned(which I did mention that Chara being traded 3 times > then Thornton being traded 1 time)

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05-21-2013, 06:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Lilina View Post
Franchise centers are much harder to obtain. Thornton has been the only one traded in like forever, and he arguably wasn't a franchise player yet
I think one could argue when Thornton was traded he was in an upper tier that you generally don't find on the UFA or trade market(he did already have one 100 point season)

Here is the 2002-03 Hart voting results

1 Peter Forsberg Col. 508 38 13 6 2 1
2 Markus Naslund Van. 342 5 26 17 7 4
3 Martin Brodeur N.J 311 14 12 11 10 2
4 Joe Thornton Bos. 131 0 6 6 15 14


Last edited by boredmale: 05-21-2013 at 06:10 PM.
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05-21-2013, 06:06 PM
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Definitely defensemen. They are even harder to get seeing as most of them are beyond first round picks, making the meven more difficult to obtain.

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05-21-2013, 06:07 PM
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Kris Chreider
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If I remember correctly, Thornton is the only player to have been traded in the middle of an Art Ross year.

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05-21-2013, 06:08 PM
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It should be pointed out Pronger was traded 3 times. lol

Also as other pointed out Chara was signed as a UFA. Suter was also signed as a UFA last summer.

Niedermeyer, Pronger, Suter and Chara are/were all Norris caliber defensemen

On the flip side the only Hart caliber center I can think that was traded in recent memory was Joe Thornton
This is kind of junk. Pronger was traded because his first team was for sale and wanted his $$$ of the ledger (made the team easier to sell). He was traded a second time because he demanded. You can't make an apple to apple comparison.

This is just an attempt to try to make an arguement that a team with a legit need for a top dman should be able to poach one from a team with one on the basis that you are getting a center.

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05-21-2013, 06:10 PM
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I'm also calling Jason Allison a 1C who was traded. Also Pavol Demitra maybe can be considered as well.

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05-21-2013, 06:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Frenzy1 View Post
This is kind of junk. Pronger was traded because his first team was for sale and wanted his $$$ of the ledger (made the team easier to sell). He was traded a second time because he demanded. You can't make an apple to apple comparison.
Him demanding out I will give you(ie the 2nd deal) but the Blues had the option to either keep Pronger and trade somebody else or Trade Pronger and keep somebody else, they did the later. Bascially when push came to shove the Blues decided to unload the defenseman over the forwards

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05-21-2013, 06:15 PM
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I probably should have been clearer, I was pointing out Thornton was traded not the other 3 defensemen I mentioned(which I did mention that Chara being traded 3 times > then Thornton being traded 1 time)
Chara being traded three times? What?

Seriously, I thought that you were just a bit biased before. But now. Are you on something? Lucy in the sky with diamonds?

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