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The Rumors and Speculation Thread #5 (June 8: Bob McKenzie's rumors [page 27])

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05-21-2013, 06:52 PM
  #51
Jack de la Hoya
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Originally Posted by IPreferPi View Post
Yotes fan coming in peace. Wanted to see what you guys would think of Vermette + Gormley for Couturier.
I suspect that would post some cap issues, but the value is probably good for the Flyers.

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05-21-2013, 06:56 PM
  #52
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And my fault, I was under the assumption Schenn was only 20 and turning 21 in August. Still, very young and my point remains the same.

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05-21-2013, 06:56 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by SchennSational1022 View Post
I said it was pretty unlikely he'll ever hit 90 points, but to say he'll only score 50-60 anaully is selling him pretty short. He should hover around 70-75
It's not selling him short though. It's not the 80's anymore, 50-60 points would be pretty good for a second line player in today's NHL.

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05-21-2013, 06:58 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Jack de la Hoya View Post
In a given season, only about 25 guys score 70 or more points and very, very few of them are not playing on the 1st line / 1st PP unit.

I don't see Schenn consistently putting out that kind of production.
I disagree. I think there is a chance he could possibly shift back to G's line in the near future. I don't think its a 100% chance he's a center. He looked pretty damn good on Couturier's wing in ADK this past season, and whenever Couturier gets bumped up to the 2C, we coudld see him with Schenn or Schenn back on G's LW

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05-21-2013, 07:05 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by SchennSational1022 View Post
I disagree. I think there is a chance he could possibly shift back to G's line in the near future. I don't think its a 100% chance he's a center. He looked pretty damn good on Couturier's wing in ADK this past season, and whenever Couturier gets bumped up to the 2C, we coudld see him with Schenn or Schenn back on G's LW
I agree. Given a choice between moving Schenn or Couturier to wing, I'd move Schenn. He could do some serious damage with Giroux in a year or two as his offense comes along...like JVR, he draws comparisons to Leclair and his slow development.

While sticking on the Leclair comparisons, didn't Leclair suck at skating to start his career, like Couturier? That turned out alright in the end.

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05-21-2013, 07:06 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by SchennSational1022 View Post
I disagree. I think there is a chance he could possibly shift back to G's line in the near future. I don't think its a 100% chance he's a center. He looked pretty damn good on Couturier's wing in ADK this past season, and whenever Couturier gets bumped up to the 2C, we coudld see him with Schenn or Schenn back on G's LW
Honestly, even on Giroux's wing (which is a move I've advocated for a while), 70-75 points every year is a big ask.

For reference, that's basically Patrick Sharp-like numbers. I just don't see that as Schenn's average year.

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05-21-2013, 07:06 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by SchennSational1022 View Post
I disagree. I think there is a chance he could possibly shift back to G's line in the near future. I don't think its a 100% chance he's a center. He looked pretty damn good on Couturier's wing in ADK this past season, and whenever Couturier gets bumped up to the 2C, we coudld see him with Schenn or Schenn back on G's LW
He looked like **** when he was put on the wing at the NHL level this year.


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05-21-2013, 07:14 PM
  #58
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Schenn is too much of a wreck-less player right now skating around charging people and being out of position all the time. Once he can slow the game down then I believe he will reach his potential, which hopefully will be at wing. Because in the future I want down the middle to be Giroux/Couts/Laughton.

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05-21-2013, 07:16 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by LegionOfDoom91 View Post
He looked like **** when he was put on the wing in the NHL this year.
True, but Giroux was struggling pretty badly at even strength at that point as well.

I still think his skill set translates well, but who knows, maybe he'll just never feel comfortable on the outside.

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05-21-2013, 07:20 PM
  #60
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True, but Giroux was struggling pretty badly at even strength at that point as well.

I still think his skill set translates well, but who knows, maybe he'll just never feel comfortable on the outside.
I know but I just wouldn't use him being good at it in the AHL as a justification. He's tore the league up whenever he was there. He's too good of player for that league that it doesn't matter where you put him.

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05-21-2013, 07:21 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by LegionOfDoom91 View Post
He looked like **** when he was put on the wing at the NHL level this year.
That was for like 5 games and even G looked ****** then. I think Schenn is better suited at center (physicality, passing first mentality etc), but I hope he is moved to the wings so we can hold onto both Couturier and Laughton. Schenn isn't as great defensively as he was said to be coming out of juniors though either.

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05-21-2013, 07:42 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by flyersfan187 View Post
Schenn is too much of a wreck-less player right now skating around charging people and being out of position all the time. Once he can slow the game down then I believe he will reach his potential, which hopefully will be at wing. Because in the future I want down the middle to be Giroux/Couts/Laughton.
That is my hope as well. I think that fits all players the best and it laughton really is as good as some are saying then all the better and we figure it out from there.

Schenn played a game that takes time to show at hte nhl level as he fills out and learns. PLus I have never seen more misses of wide open shots in my life than with schenn over the last few seasons. I think they start going in and he breaks out this year.

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05-21-2013, 07:43 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by LegionOfDoom91 View Post
He looked like **** when he was put on the wing at the NHL level this year.
Like the above poster said, it was 5 games. But yes, he did look like ****. Also, in his defense it was at RW. Playing the off wing can be a real challenge for anyone if they aren't used to it or prefer it like Voracek and Jagr. To the best of my knowledge, Schenn had never played RW before. Put him at LW with Giroux at center and Jake/Simmonds at RW and you might have a hell of a line.

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05-21-2013, 07:45 PM
  #64
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Schenn played a game that takes time to show at hte nhl level as he fills out and learns. PLus I have never seen more misses of wide open shots in my life than with schenn over the last few seasons. I think they start going in and he breaks out this year.
A lot of people were saying the same thing about Voracek and missed shots not too long ago also. He came around with more experience.

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05-21-2013, 07:46 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by LegionOfDoom91 View Post
He looked like **** when he was put on the wing at the NHL level this year.
No he didn't. He looked average, and as another pointed out... so did a lot of the other forwards.

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05-21-2013, 07:47 PM
  #66
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Carter and Richards had 80 point seasons at the same time for the Flyers. It's not out of the realm of possibilities. He could play second line center but also get top unit PP time and maybe some penalty kill mixed in. I could see a Giroux 85 point Schenn 80 point campaign in 2 years maybe.

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05-21-2013, 07:49 PM
  #67
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Like the above poster said, it was 5 games. But yes, he did look like ****. Also, in his defense it was at RW. Playing the off wing can be a real challenge for anyone if they aren't used to it or prefer it like Voracek and Jagr. To the best of my knowledge, Schenn had never played RW before. Put him at LW with Giroux at center and Jake/Simmonds at RW and you might have a hell of a line.
I'm all for trying it but I just think he sticks at the center position when all is said and done. If one of Laughton or Couturier gets shipped out (which could possibly happen) it becomes kind of a moot point anyway.

I wouldn't split Giroux and Voracek up neither.

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05-21-2013, 07:53 PM
  #68
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No he didn't. He looked average, and as another pointed out... so did a lot of the other forwards.
He was pretty invisible.

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05-21-2013, 07:55 PM
  #69
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Carter and Richards had 80 point seasons at the same time for the Flyers. It's not out of the realm of possibilities. He could play second line center but also get top unit PP time and maybe some penalty kill mixed in. I could see a Giroux 85 point Schenn 80 point campaign in 2 years maybe.
I think the first PP unit is pretty set as long as Hartnell, Simmonds, Voracek, and Giroux are all still here. I can't see them running 5 forwards out there.

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05-21-2013, 08:05 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by LegionOfDoom91 View Post
I think the first PP unit is pretty set as long as Hartnell, Simmonds, Voracek, and Giroux are all still here. I can't see them running 5 forwards out there.
Yeah the one big positive that came out of last season is that our top power play unit is absolutely deadly. Incredible puck movement, everybody knows their roles, I can't see anyone else getting time with those guys unless there is an injury.

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05-21-2013, 08:08 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by LegionOfDoom91 View Post
I think the first PP unit is pretty set as long as Hartnell, Simmonds, Voracek, and Giroux are all still here. I can't see them running 5 forwards out there.
In two years though? I don't think it would happen next year, but it has a chance to happen in two years. It's tough to speculate that though because we might have a totally different team at that time. Hartnell could easily be displaced from the PP if he struggles also. We have seen him play amazing hockey and then play like he is still in midget. If Schenn continues to develop we could have a special 1-2 punch down the middle. Where does Couts fit in?? I would love to be a fly on the wall during Homer's talks with his staff and other GM's.

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05-21-2013, 08:15 PM
  #72
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Any other comments on the Vermette and Gormley for Couturier proposal?

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05-21-2013, 08:15 PM
  #73
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In two years though? I don't think it would happen next year, but it has a chance to happen in two years. It's tough to speculate that though because we might have a totally different team at that time. Hartnell could easily be displaced from the PP if he struggles also. We have seen him play amazing hockey and then play like he is still in midget. If Schenn continues to develop we could have a special 1-2 punch down the middle. Where does Couts fit in?? I would love to be a fly on the wall during Homer's talks with his staff and other GM's.
Who knows? It's been two seasons now that no ones been able to consistently stop these guys. I wouldn't break them up until proven otherwise. Even with a down year Hartnell was still pretty good as a down low guy. The points weren't there but he was still doing his part in the cycle and still something other teams had to respect.

We just need to worry about who we can get to replace Kimmo's role at the point.

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05-21-2013, 08:28 PM
  #74
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Sure, but there are people who want to trade him for Edler or other 2-4 Dmen. That's the wrong trade. There are maybe 3 Dmen in the league worth trading Couturier over, since you gut the forward corps' defensive ability with him gone.

Pittsburgh also isn't all that comparable, because they have 17.4 million tied up in two centers, and had something like 21 million in 3 centers with Staal on board; when you include Fleury's hit, that's something like 40% of your cap space spent on 4 players. At some point you have to spread cap money around so your centers can have players to work with, and you have real depth outside of those guys. The Flyers don't have that issue.

The Flyers biggest cap conundrum is their incredibly expensive defense that doesn't perform up to their cap hit. Trading an affordable forward for someone who will likely bring that D cost up even higher leaves less room to get an equal replacement for Couturier. And, no matter who you trade him for, you're fixing one hold and then opening a gaping hole in the forward group in terms of defensive responsibility.

Trading Couturier just isn't a very good idea. Couturier is, himself, a need. None of our other centers comes close to filling that role.
I agree with most of this. I don't think trading Couturier for a defender opens up a "gaping" hole though. I think whomever took over third line center duties would be a downgrade, but I think the upgrade on the blueline and the difference between Couturier and his "replacement" would not leave a gaping hole. It isn't like they are going to shoot Jody Shelley out there or someone who is going to be awful defensively. If he were dealt, Laughton may get the nod this season if he is ready. Obviously, that would be a downgrade in terms of defense. But how much of a downgrade, I am not sure. I am confident that whomever wound up there, coupled with the upgrade on the blue line, wouldn't leave a gaping hole. Think about it. Let's say the Flyers get Petro from STL (hypothetically so don't come at me and tell me the Blues would never do this) and Laughton gets 3C duties. The upgrade that Petro brings would outweigh the defensive downgrade between Couturier and Laughton. Even if it didn't (i.e. Laughton sucked and was sent down or something, or someone else was brought in), a defensively responsible third line center is not as hot a commodity or hard to find as a top pair defender. Now, if the Flyers have no backup plan and they roll out a third line with Rinaldo at center, then yes it is not a smart move, but I would be surprised that the Flyers third line center would be their Achilles heel if a high caliber defender was brought in. Possible, for sure, but I think that it is unlikely. That's the way I look at it, anyway.

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05-21-2013, 08:30 PM
  #75
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Any other comments on the Vermette and Gormley for Couturier proposal?
That's a very fair proposal, and an enticing one. I'm on the fence over it.

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