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Would the Habs benefit from a Heavyweight enforcer? Part 3

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Old
05-21-2013, 04:57 PM
  #626
SouthernHab
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Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
The only thing remarkable about the scrum was the bite. Scrums minus the biting happen like that all the time. That's not the Habs going after someone.

Gallagher will always be a target because of the way he plays. Unless you are claiming defenceman won't hit/crosscheck him out of fear that an enforcer will come after them.

If anyone is claiming to be the martyr it's you.
When Pacioretty was bitten, instead of taking matters into his own hands, or having someone on the team to do that for him, he went whining to the referees.

Earned some "rispeck" that way, eh?

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05-21-2013, 04:58 PM
  #627
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Not just Neil, every team now plays the Habs hard and dirty. Because they can.

The Bruins and Leafs played a physical 7 game series with only 2 fights and very little of the goonish tactics that the Sens used.

Why?

For the turn the other cheek crowd, its called RESPECT. They respected the fact that each team had enough fighters on the team that it becomes a moot point to try to intimidate the other team. It cant happen with the Bruins against the Leafs.

Respect is earned, not given.......not even when pleaded for by Therrien in front of the media.

"Rispeck".

A once proud franchise has become the joke of the NHL.

But guys like sorinth are OK with that. We can just score PP goals when other teams goon it up.
Habs brought the same bruins team to overtime game 7 without Patches and Markov in 2011 as even bigger underdogs

It's not all about who has the more/better fighters... what a joke

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05-21-2013, 04:59 PM
  #628
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Originally Posted by raz123 View Post
My 2 cents...

Facts:

We've seen big players play soft.
We've seen big players play hard.

We've seen small players play soft.
We've seen small players play hard.

Conclusion:

Forget the physical stats. What we need to take into consideration is how a player plays. Case in point: Brendan Gallagher. It's a mindset. We need talented players that play hard.

Can it be taught? Perhaps with young players. Doubtful with older ones.
I say bring on Ian Gallagher (Brendan's father); he's "a strength and conditioning coach for the Vancouver Giants". Put him in the AHL and have him teach the Brendan style we all like.
I don't think a strength and conditionning coach can turn a soft player into a Gallagher, either you really have the drive or you don't. somebody motivating you may work short term(a few games or weeks) but not long term.

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05-21-2013, 05:02 PM
  #629
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Originally Posted by Dirty Danglez View Post
First of all, you were the one who brought up lucic and thornton specifically... I was responding to your post

and secondly, not at all! Montreal tried to goon it up with Ottawa and got their ***** handed to them! What were you watching?? White slashed smith hard and then the whole line just fought.

If white never did that, there wouldn't have been any fights and there wouldn't have been that embarrassment

You're like the Price fanboys... so caught up in your tunnel vision and you refuse to see the big picture.
Gotta give some Habs players credit for standing up for themselves but they were outmuscled.

Good to see you blame one of the few players with a set of balls for "that embarrassment".

Gryba targeted Eller, Therrien whined like a ***** and the goonish play escalated from there. But sure, blame White.

He should have taken that first slash like a little ***** and skated away. YOU probably would have had some "rispeck" for White if he did that, right?

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05-21-2013, 05:02 PM
  #630
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Originally Posted by Dirty Danglez View Post
Habs brought the same bruins team to overtime game 7 without Patches and Markov in 2011 as even bigger underdogs

It's not all about who has the more/better fighters... what a joke
I'm not a big advocate of building a team of big buffoons, but having one legit NHL heavyweight enforcer definitely has value in protecting your players.

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05-21-2013, 05:03 PM
  #631
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Take it man, take it. Turn the other cheek. Let a team embarrass the hell out of you because deep down inside, you know your mommy, or in this case, Coach Therrien, will go whining and complaining to someone.

Therrien and the Habs became the joke of the League after the Ottawa series.
Find me a post where I said we should turn the other cheek.

When the going gets rough you have to push back as a TEAM, relying on a couple of player to bring all the toughness is a recipe for disaster.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bud12 View Post
yes, got a problem with that?

exemple for people who don't understand:

When Laraque was there, Neil was invisible. Now, he play like a redneck each time the habs face him......
I don't have a problem I think it's laughable that you think a scrum after the whistle makes Orr so incensed that he takes a run at Plekanec.

As for Neil,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4mBiQf36vU

I guess Thornton, Lucic, and Chara all suck as enforcers.

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05-21-2013, 05:05 PM
  #632
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Originally Posted by Dirty Danglez View Post
Habs brought the same bruins team to overtime game 7 without Patches and Markov in 2011 as even bigger underdogs

It's not all about who has the more/better fighters... what a joke
Not talking about game 7 in 2011. This is the enforcer thread. You can talk about that if we have a Gauthier/Martin love thread come up again.

This is about respect between two teams. Toronto and Boston played hockey.

Respect in hockey is different than "rispeck".

You do not grasp that concept.

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05-21-2013, 05:06 PM
  #633
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The thing is, this debate can never end. Say we get some thug enforcer like Kassian, or we picked him up when he was on waivers or whatever. There will still be an essentially inifinite number of cherry-pickable situations in which one side could claim he "intimidated" an opponent into not doing something, or in which the other side could argue that we would have done better than his 15-0-0-0 -4 stats line by having a non-slug player in his spot. Etc. You can't prove anything either way with those kinds of arguments.

End of the day, all you can do is judge if the team wins hockey games or not. This season, the team won more hockey games than we expected... in the regular season. Then lost more in the playoffs. There's obviously room to experiment on ways to improve the team. And there are many candidate ways to do that. Adding size and physicality in some form is one of the more obvious ways. The GM will try to strike the right cost/benefit ratio on doing that, I'm sure. He may succeed to some or fail to others, but I'm sure we'll still see this debate raging.

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05-21-2013, 05:07 PM
  #634
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Originally Posted by Monctonscout View Post
I don't think a strength and conditionning coach can turn a soft player into a Gallagher, either you really have the drive or you don't. somebody motivating you may work short term(a few games or weeks) but not long term.
Fair point, however, let's not forget that our environment influences dramatically our personality and style.

I strongly believe that if the Habs management starts pushing a certain mold for the rookies to adapt to, and gives them the tools (conditioning coach/summer camp), more and more will develop that Gallagherness.

Btw, we all know that the off-season is when the players work the most on their skills and conditioning. Why don't the Habs set up a summer-long camp for rookies/players that want that extra refining?

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05-21-2013, 05:09 PM
  #635
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Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
Find me a post where I said we should turn the other cheek.

When the going gets rough you have to push back as a TEAM, relying on a couple of player to bring all the toughness is a recipe for disaster.



I don't have a problem I think it's laughable that you think a scrum after the whistle makes Orr so incensed that he takes a run at Plekanec.

As for Neil,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4mBiQf36vU

I guess Thornton, Lucic, and Chara all suck as enforcers.
Bottom line then. What do you think the Habs should do?

Hamilton is full of soft as butter undersized forwards. Tinordi sucks at fighting. Prust got worn down and Moen has no interest.

So what do you suggest?

You can make all the pie in the sky wishlists for all of the big skill players............."Oh, if we only had Thornton or Neil or pick some player who will never play here"..........but that isnt the reality in Montreal.

So what do you suggest?

The recipe for defeating the Canadiens is out in the open. Goon it up and you win.

Curious to see your answer.

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05-21-2013, 05:09 PM
  #636
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raz123 View Post
My 2 cents...

Facts:

We've seen big players play soft.
We've seen big players play hard.

We've seen small players play soft.
We've seen small players play hard.

Conclusion:

Forget the physical stats. What we need to take into consideration is how a player plays. Case in point: Brendan Gallagher. It's a mindset. We need talented players that play hard.

Can it be taught? Perhaps with young players. Doubtful with older ones.
I say bring on Ian Gallagher (Brendan's father); he's "a strength and conditioning coach for the Vancouver Giants". Put him in the AHL and have him teach the Brendan style we all like.
It's more a team mindset then anything else. The reason a guy like Horton plays "tough" as soon as he goes to Boston isn't because he now finally has an enforcer that has his back. It's because the team mentality is to take the body as much as possible. If the coach is telling you to finish your checks, and all your teamates are finishing their checks chances are you will too.

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05-21-2013, 05:10 PM
  #637
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Gotta give some Habs players credit for standing up for themselves but they were outmuscled.

Good to see you blame one of the few players with a set of balls for "that embarrassment".

Gryba targeted Eller, Therrien whined like a ***** and the goonish play escalated from there. But sure, blame White.

He should have taken that first slash like a little ***** and skated away. YOU probably would have had some "rispeck" for White if he did that, right?
You see your shortsightedness here? This post has absolutely nothing to do with anything i've been saying . you just keep saying the same crap over and over.

First.. The habs outhit... outmuscled the sens the game after Eller got destroyed... so that point is moot.

Secondly, I love white and his fiestiness, but he started the whole brawl and like you said, the habs have terrible fighters, which led to the team getting embarrassed... so yes, it was his fault.

Lastly... your accusation at the end is so off target, it just wreaks of immaturity. I'll say it again. I think the habs should get tougher. I even think they should get a Reaves, Boll, Thornton... a heavyweight who can play quality minutes. Not some 4-5 minute goon.

The defence needs to get bigger as well because of the kind of forwards the division has. It's quite obvious where the habs need to improve. If you've read my posts, you'd know that. But as soon as anyone in this thread disagrees with the notion of getting a mindless goon who can't bring anything else to the table, you go on some sorta immature rampage of insecurity.

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05-21-2013, 05:12 PM
  #638
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Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
The thing is, this debate can never end. Say we get some thug enforcer like Kassian, or we picked him up when he was on waivers or whatever. There will still be an essentially inifinite number of cherry-pickable situations in which one side could claim he "intimidated" an opponent into not doing something, or in which the other side could argue that we would have done better than his 15-0-0-0 -4 stats line by having a non-slug player in his spot. Etc. You can't prove anything either way with those kinds of arguments.

End of the day, all you can do is judge if the team wins hockey games or not. This season, the team won more hockey games than we expected... in the regular season. Then lost more in the playoffs. There's obviously room to experiment on ways to improve the team. And there are many candidate ways to do that. Adding size and physicality in some form is one of the more obvious ways. The GM will try to strike the right cost/benefit ratio on doing that, I'm sure. He may succeed to some or fail to others, but I'm sure we'll still see this debate raging.
Very true

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05-21-2013, 05:14 PM
  #639
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Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
The thing is, this debate can never end. Say we get some thug enforcer like Kassian, or we picked him up when he was on waivers or whatever. There will still be an essentially inifinite number of cherry-pickable situations in which one side could claim he "intimidated" an opponent into not doing something, or in which the other side could argue that we would have done better than his 15-0-0-0 -4 stats line by having a non-slug player in his spot. Etc. You can't prove anything either way with those kinds of arguments.

End of the day, all you can do is judge if the team wins hockey games or not. This season, the team won more hockey games than we expected... in the regular season. Then lost more in the playoffs. There's obviously room to experiment on ways to improve the team. And there are many candidate ways to do that. Adding size and physicality in some form is one of the more obvious ways. The GM will try to strike the right cost/benefit ratio on doing that, I'm sure. He may succeed to some or fail to others, but I'm sure we'll still see this debate raging.
Your points are somewhat valid.

I have a question for you. How long have you been a fan of the Habs?

I was a fan when the Canadiens were a respected and successful team. There was pride in the organization and there was pride on the ice when the Habs played.

Over the years, the Habs organization has become known as the softest team in the League. And then the Ottawa series comes along and the Habs were humiliated on the scoreboard and on the ice. And Therrien comes along with his childish whining about "rispeck". (Google rispeck and see how many pages come up).

The once proud Habs are now the joke of the League and no teams respect the Canadiens.

My question to you.........are you happy and satisfied with that?

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05-21-2013, 05:16 PM
  #640
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Originally Posted by Dirty Danglez View Post
You see your shortsightedness here? This post has absolutely nothing to do with anything i've been saying . you just keep saying the same crap over and over.

First.. The habs outhit... outmuscled the sens the game after Eller got destroyed... so that point is moot.

Secondly, I love white and his fiestiness, but he started the whole brawl and like you said, the habs have terrible fighters, which led to the team getting embarrassed... so yes, it was his fault.

Lastly... your accusation at the end is so off target, it just wreaks of immaturity. I'll say it again. I think the habs should get tougher. I even think they should get a Reaves, Boll, Thornton... a heavyweight who can play quality minutes. Not some 4-5 minute goon.

The defence needs to get bigger as well because of the kind of forwards the division has. It's quite obvious where the habs need to improve. If you've read my posts, you'd know that. But as soon as anyone in this thread disagrees with the notion of getting a mindless goon who can't bring anything else to the table, you go on some sorta immature rampage of insecurity.

Ottawa beat us in 5 with a 4-5 minute goon dressed for 4 of those games.

What's your point again?

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05-21-2013, 05:16 PM
  #641
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Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
.



I don't have a problem I think it's laughable that you think a scrum after the whistle makes Orr so incensed that he takes a run at Plekanec.

As for Neil,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4mBiQf36vU

I guess Thornton, Lucic, and Chara all suck as enforcers.
legal hit. And he dropped the glove again Chara in that game. It's called respect. And I think it's laughable that you think Chara is a enforcer.....

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05-21-2013, 05:19 PM
  #642
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Ottawa beat us in 5 with a 4-5 minute goon dressed for 4 of those games.

What's your point again?
Ignore the whole post why don't you ridiculous.

My point is they would have beaten the habs even worse if they had a useful player in the same spot

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05-21-2013, 05:25 PM
  #643
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Bottom line then. What do you think the Habs should do?

Hamilton is full of soft as butter undersized forwards. Tinordi sucks at fighting. Prust got worn down and Moen has no interest.

So what do you suggest?

You can make all the pie in the sky wishlists for all of the big skill players............."Oh, if we only had Thornton or Neil or pick some player who will never play here"..........but that isnt the reality in Montreal.

So what do you suggest?

The recipe for defeating the Canadiens is out in the open. Goon it up and you win.

Curious to see your answer.
Well since I don't agree that all you have to do is Goon it up and win you probably won't like my answer.

I see two holes on the Habs roster, a shutdown D man who can clear the crease and can play in the top-4. A player that can score 20-25 mostly dirty goals that can play in the top-9.

There's no point in listing names since at the end of the day we really don't know who is available and/or what the price of aquiring them is.

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05-21-2013, 05:27 PM
  #644
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majority of teams have one. Players tell that they like to have one of those guys in their team but strangely, guys like Sorinth, Et le but and Dirty Danglez like to keep their eyes close

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05-21-2013, 05:27 PM
  #645
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Ignore the whole post why don't you ridiculous.

My point is they would have beaten the habs even worse if they had a useful player in the same spot
Ive got to go out to dinner.

Something tells me that I could have tried to rebut your post line-by-line and it would not have mattered a bit to you.

So I just went with reality.

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05-21-2013, 05:29 PM
  #646
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legal hit. And he dropped the glove again Chara in that game. It's called respect. And I think it's laughable that you think Chara is a enforcer.....
Neil took a run at Boychuk, had that been a habs player you would have demanded blood.

I don't consider Chara an enforcer, but he's a feared fighter so shouldn't he deter people from taking runs at his teamates?

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05-21-2013, 05:36 PM
  #647
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Neil took a run at Boychuk, had that been a habs player you would have demanded blood.
I don't consider Chara an enforcer, but he's a feared fighter so shouldn't he deter people from taking runs at his teamates?
Chara? A feared fighter? Since when?

And yes, I would have demanded blood,. Chara at least, tryed but failed. Habs would have done nothing because the don't have self-rispeck.

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05-21-2013, 07:25 PM
  #648
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We need one and I'm 100% sure Bergevin will get one.

The only debate is where those against it now will stand after the acquisition. I'm sure it will be called a great move when the tough guy is inevitably signed, and by those who say it is unnecessary today.


Last edited by habsfanatics: 05-22-2013 at 10:02 PM.
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05-21-2013, 09:10 PM
  #649
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Laraque was a terrible "enforcer". Painting everybody like him makes no sense. A good enforcer will send a message if somebody is running his best/smaller players. Sometimes it calls for an extra 2 minutes here and there or running that team's best players. When Neal was after Gallagher, guys like Moen should have been getting after Karlsson Methot Anderson etc or getting after Neal.

Like I said earlier, that is a tone that is set during the season and then gets carried into the playoffs. Toronto's core is much softer than ours but they got 2-3 scrappers and they were not affraid to "send a message".
I'm sorry to say, but this is so flawed right from the start. True that I would have liked for Laraque to stop sending invitation but if anyone thinks for a second that "jumping" a guy is the solution, they're highly mistaken.

When a player looses it and gets an instigator penalty (rule that they should get rid of BTW), and the other team uses that PP time to score and win the game, you can claim all you want having gained respect but you haven't one bit. You've ultimately cost your team a precious two points, period.

Further, the next game(s) against that same team, they will likely try to get that player to do the same in order to try to win the game(s) as they were successful the last time the two teams played!

You don't believe me? Look at Chara when he went stupid against Emelin, after the Habs' defenseman crosschecked Seguin... The Bruins had the game well in hand at that time, but the Habs came back to win this game. Those two points would have put the Bruins ahead of the Habs in the standings.

Again, the Habs need to get bigger and tougher by adding guys who will fight, at least one guy bigger than Prust, but they must be able to contribute something else to the team and be able to skate 8-12 minutes a game. Otherwise, you're better off with a guy who can't fight but who can hit and check.

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05-21-2013, 09:55 PM
  #650
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Did anyone watch the Bruins Rangers game tonight?

If you did, maybe you saw (or for a lot on this thread.......ignored) the proper and effective use of an enforcer on the ice.

In the 3rd Period, the Rangers Derek Dorsett went after the Nose Marchand. Dorsett got in Marchand's face, challenged him to a fight and chased him all across the ice.

The NEXT shift that Derek Dorsett took, Shawn Thornton hopped over the boards and immediately started shoving Dorsett and challenged him to a fight. Of course, Dorsett declined.

Derek Dorsett left Marchand alone for the rest of the game.


Of course, the enforcer nay-sayers will find something to dismiss this away and pretend that it really did not happen.

It ****ing sucks that the team that I hate the most has figured out how to allow skill players to play hockey without worrying about being harassed and gooned.

I hope Bergevin was watching the game.

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