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The world rankings

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Old
05-20-2013, 03:07 PM
  #26
Zine
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Originally Posted by Frank the Tank View Post
It is not surprising that the IIHF rankings rely heavily on the WHC championships because it is the organization's crown jewel event. It generates large revenues for the IIHF in terms of viewing rights in European markets. As a result, such rankings have to be taken with the bias the IIHF has as an organization towards Europe. For example, the WHC schedule is based on the finish of the European professional leagues while ignoring the NHL playoffs, the league where the majority of best players in the world play.

Everyone knows to take these ranking with a grain of salt, anyways. Russia was #1 heading into Vancouver 2010 and were eliminated at the QF in a blowout loss. That is not the perception, however, because when I point out (to both NA or European hockey fans) that Canada upset the tournament favorites, the large majority reply that Canada was the actual favorite so it is not an upset.
Why is it only certain Canadians having issues with this....or fail to understand the purpose of rankings?

In years following Sweden 2006 Gold, I don't recall any Swedes saying "We're not ranked #1? What about olympic rankings? IIHF is a joke!!"

Good heavens people.

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Old
05-20-2013, 03:07 PM
  #27
RandV
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Originally Posted by TonsofPuppies View Post
Someone's butthurt. The rankings are fair. While I agree that the Olympics should be worth more than the WHC, like someone else already posted, since Vancouver 2010, Canada has done NOTHING on the international stage, at ANY level, except one U18 gold. Hockey Canada should be embarrassed by their efforts.
Yes in addition to WC success Canada has also hit a recent drought at the WJC's. In the end it doesn't have any impact on us, for the big price how you split the top six may as well be random as no matter how they align you get the top prime seeds for the elimination round by winning in the round robin.

For people talking about FIFA, I understand the complaints but is it really fair to compare to hockey when football is such a global sport? The IIHF rankings have the luxury of being small, would a 'World' Cup of football really work if it was played almost entirely by European countries?

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Old
05-20-2013, 03:43 PM
  #28
Frank the Tank
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zine View Post
Why is it only certain Canadians having issues with this....or fail to understand the purpose of rankings?

In years following Sweden 2006 Gold, I don't recall any Swedes saying "We're not ranked #1? What about olympic rankings? IIHF is a joke!!"

Good heavens people.
I understand the purpose of the IIHF rankings completely. My comment was directed more to the numerous posters in this thread who claim these ranking are an indication of Canada's decline since the Olympics.

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05-20-2013, 04:29 PM
  #29
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Very pleased to see Denmark holding steady at #12.
Still mad however that we missed out on the olympics.

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05-21-2013, 04:40 PM
  #30
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I gotta side with the Canadians. An olympic gold SHOULD be worth more than a WHC gold. Olympic gold = 1 WHC gold 1 WHC silver or 1 gold and 1 bronze atleast. It shouldn't be valued equally

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05-21-2013, 04:53 PM
  #31
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Interesting to look at the pools for Sochi and how things could have changed if they took the rankings from '13. It would have been Sweden, USA, Switzerland, Slovenia...Finland, Canada, Slovakia, Austria...Russia, Czech Republic, Norway, Latvia.

At first I think many considered Group A (Russia, Slovakia, USA, Slovenia) to be the group of death but Group C looks the toughest at this point with 3 of the top 7 teams in the World and 4 of the top 11 (Czech, Sweden, Switzerland, Latvia). Sweden was second in their own group and are now number one.

Just interesting to look at.

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Old
05-21-2013, 05:02 PM
  #32
Burke the Legend
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This a joke? Canada at #5??

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Old
05-21-2013, 05:20 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Burke the Legend View Post
This a joke? Canada at #5??
You don't watch a lot of international hockey, do you?

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05-21-2013, 05:28 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Burke the Legend View Post
This a joke? Canada at #5??
They haven't won anything since 2010.

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Old
05-21-2013, 05:37 PM
  #35
Frank the Tank
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Originally Posted by Burke the Legend View Post
This a joke? Canada at #5??
The thread title of "world rankings" is a bit of a misnomer and nebulous to define (as evidenced by this and the numerous other threads). A more accurate title would be the IIHF rankings.

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Old
05-21-2013, 05:41 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Rob View Post
Disagree. FIFA has 'best vs best' games and tournaments every year. IIHF? Once every four years. That is a joke.
No FIFA rankings are crap, they even take exhibition games into account.
I mean...

6 Colombia
9 Netherlands
10 Ecuador
18 France
19 Brazil

etc

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05-21-2013, 05:44 PM
  #37
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As a seeding list it's fine. Sweden was #1 until 2010, until Sochi it's Canada.

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Old
05-22-2013, 01:14 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Frank the Tank View Post
The thread title of "world rankings" is a bit of a misnomer and nebulous to define (as evidenced by this and the numerous other threads). A more accurate title would be the IIHF rankings.
The IIHF is the world federation of hockey, so yes, calling them world rankings is completely fine. Somehow the only people who complain about these rankings are those who have absolutely no idea what they are for. They are not ranking the skill every nation has, they rank performance in recent tournament to streamline qualification for olympics and set up the groups for all tournaments, that's it.

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Old
05-22-2013, 01:22 AM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob View Post
Disagree. FIFA has 'best vs best' games and tournaments every year. IIHF? Once every four years. That is a joke.
False, the FIFA ranking takes into account every amical games and is biaised for teams who play most of their games against very weak opponents.
At least the IIHF ranking takes into account the Olympics and the four last WC and not every amical game and worthless results.

But it's clear that the system isn't the exact reflection of the strength of the team but more of their last results...

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Old
05-22-2013, 01:36 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Sanderson View Post
The IIHF is the world federation of hockey, so yes, calling them world rankings is completely fine. Somehow the only people who complain about these rankings are those who have absolutely no idea what they are for. They are not ranking the skill every nation has, they rank performance in recent tournament to streamline qualification for olympics and set up the groups for all tournaments, that's it.
This needs to be highlighted.

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Old
05-22-2013, 03:20 AM
  #41
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Too bad there isn't some well respected "alternate" ranking like there is with Eloratings for Football.

As an exercise, I took the IIHF rankings onto a spreadsheet but instead of weighing the Olympics 2010 as worth only 25% of the IIHF 2013 Championships, I made it 100% weight, meaning it is worth as much as the results of the WC2013 and much more than all of the previous WCs. Canada's still not #1. Rankings were:

1. Finland
2. Sweden
3. Canada
4. Russia
5. United States
6. Czech Republic
7. Slovakia
8. Switzerland
9. Norway
10. Germany

Personally I find this to be a fair and reasonable representation of how the countries are doing now going into the Olympics. Finland and Sweden have been very consistent the past three years and should be considered a very serious threat, even a slight favorite against Canada in betting odds on international ice with best-on-best players. And this coming from a huge Canadian fan.

Some abberations start to appear when you screw with the metric even more and make Olympics ranking DOUBLE that of the IIHF WC2013, as some have suggested. This ranking is probably how NA/NHL-centric fans really see the top nations:

1. Canada
2. Finland
3. Sweden
4. United States
5. Russia
6. Slovakia
7. Czech Republic
8. Switzerland
9. Norway
10. Germany

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05-22-2013, 03:30 AM
  #42
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The problem I have with the IIHF rankings is that they don't take into account the World Juniors which I find tend to be much bigger to most hockey fans than the World Championships, at least fans of the big 7 anyway.

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05-22-2013, 03:34 AM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Machinehead View Post
The problem I have with the IIHF rankings is that they don't take into account the World Juniors which I find tend to be much bigger to most hockey fans than the World Championships, at least fans of the big 7 anyway.
They did put out a ranking for the 1st time ever after Sweden won it in Calgary '12 with Sweden assuming the number 1 spot... but as far as I can tell they didn't follow up this year after the U.S. victory in Ufa.

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05-22-2013, 03:52 AM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Mr Writer View Post
They did put out a ranking for the 1st time ever after Sweden won it in Calgary '12 with Sweden assuming the number 1 spot... but as far as I can tell they didn't follow up this year after the U.S. victory in Ufa.
Oh of course when a North American team wins something the IIHF is nowhere to be found.


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Old
05-22-2013, 04:11 AM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Machinehead View Post
The problem I have with the IIHF rankings is that they don't take into account the World Juniors which I find tend to be much bigger to most hockey fans than the World Championships, at least fans of the big 7 anyway.
This is only true in NA. World Juniors have gathered more interest in Sweden and Finland lately (especially in Sweden for what I know), but aren't still on the level of World championships. Especially among non-harcore hockey fans the attitude often is that "It's World Juniors, they're just kids, why should I care". And ofcourse it's true that they are just kids, of which many don't develop into professionals.

Still, I agree that they should probably include the WJC in the rankings somehow. The problem with including them too much is the fact that results of juniors championships often don't represent true power relationships of the countries, since especially with smaller countries variance in player development can be substancial. If we look at Finland's results in WJC tournament over the last 20 years and compare them to results in mens tournaments (WC, Olympics, World Cup), you can't see a distinct correlation with the results. Results in junior tournaments have dwindled a lot: Some moderate success here and there, with long stretches of mediocre to weak perforamnces in between. Yet performances in men's tournaments has stayed fairly constant. I think the same can be said of an arguably stronger hockey nation, the Czech Republic. Dwindling jr results with pretty remarkable success in men's tournaments.

Also it's not just about variance in player development, but also the usual curve of the development of players. Finns tend to be small and scrawny up until quite late, and through our history there has been quite a few late bloomers with fairly few youth stars. WJC tends to favor teams that are physically mature. Maybe it's inconsitent to my argument to say that WJC's favor teams like Sweden, USA and Canada (players tend to be physically mature in an early stage), since these countries are imo the top-3 in player development, but I still think it's a fair point. Judging the WJC's as a meter for the level of player development has it's obvious uses, but it doesn't take into consideration what happens after that. If we look at it from a mens' team perspective, it doesn't really matter wether players take the biggest steps in their careers at age 18 or at 22.

Also as a consideration, how much are junior tournament results taken into consideration in rankings in other sports? Personally I don't know but it would be interesting to see.

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Old
05-22-2013, 05:23 AM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Shrimper View Post
Surprised to see Great Britain drop to 21. We punched above our weight with the Olympics to get to the final qualification stage but then I guess our poor WJHC cost us.
There's no reason to be surprised: the Olympic qualifyier is not part of the ranking yet and Britain was overtaken by Japan because Japan finished 2 spots ahead of GB in the WHC (not sure what you call 'WJHC').

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oyabun View Post
I gotta side with the Canadians. An olympic gold SHOULD be worth more than a WHC gold. Olympic gold = 1 WHC gold 1 WHC silver or 1 gold and 1 bronze atleast. It shouldn't be valued equally
If the Olympics were given twice the weight they currently have, Canada still wouldn't make the top-3, so it wouldn't be enough to put an end to the silly complaints.

Quote:
Originally Posted by YARR123 View Post
This is only true in NA. World Juniors have gathered more interest in Sweden and Finland lately (especially in Sweden for what I know), but aren't still on the level of World championships. Especially among non-harcore hockey fans the attitude often is that "It's World Juniors, they're just kids, why should I care". And ofcourse it's true that they are just kids, of which many don't develop into professionals.
There's no reason to include the juniors when ranking the senior national teams.

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05-22-2013, 05:27 AM
  #47
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Originally Posted by Machinehead View Post
Oh of course when a North American team wins something the IIHF is nowhere to be found.
Quit your whining already. Considering Sweden finished 2nd it's unlikely they would have surrendered the top spot in the overall rankings.

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05-22-2013, 05:32 AM
  #48
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Originally Posted by Machinehead View Post
Oh of course when a North American team wins something the IIHF is nowhere to be found.

There was a thread last year re: the junior ranking. I think it was shut down pretty quickly though as it got heated. I'll try and find later if I get the chance.

and with regards to the IIHF, you're already preaching to the choir. I've been a proponent for years of both Hockey Canada and USA Hockey pulling out of the IIHF U20 tournament and holding our own annual tournament alternating cities between the two. Best of 7 Summit Series every Christmas..compelling must see t.v. I think it would be a worth while project for 5 years to see what we have.

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05-22-2013, 05:42 AM
  #49
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Originally Posted by HavlatMach9 View Post
As a seeding list it's fine. Sweden was #1 until 2010, until Sochi it's Canada.
Canada havent done anything since the olympics, so no. It's like saying Chelsea is the best football club at the moment

As for the WJC, NO. They should not have anything to do with rankings. They are just kids and none of them could not even take a spot on the A team. It really is only Canada who cares about it too, but it is getting more popular here too.

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Old
05-22-2013, 07:08 AM
  #50
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Good to see a new nation join the big 7 or 8 in World Hockey. Expecting big things from Switzerland in the future.

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