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Would the Habs benefit from a Heavyweight enforcer? Part 3

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Old
05-21-2013, 09:59 PM
  #651
SouthernHab
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Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
I'm sorry to say, but this is so flawed right from the start. True that I would have liked for Laraque to stop sending invitation but if anyone thinks for a second that "jumping" a guy is the solution, they're highly mistaken.

When a player looses it and gets an instigator penalty (rule that they should get rid of BTW), and the other team uses that PP time to score and win the game, you can claim all you want having gained respect but you haven't one bit. You've ultimately cost your team a precious two points, period.

Further, the next game(s) against that same team, they will likely try to get that player to do the same in order to try to win the game(s) as they were successful the last time the two teams played!

You don't believe me? Look at Chara when he went stupid against Emelin, after the Habs' defenseman crosschecked Seguin... The Bruins had the game well in hand at that time, but the Habs came back to win this game. Those two points would have put the Bruins ahead of the Habs in the standings.

Again, the Habs need to get bigger and tougher by adding guys who will fight, at least one guy bigger than Prust, but they must be able to contribute something else to the team and be able to skate 8-12 minutes a game. Otherwise, you're better off with a guy who can't fight but who can hit and check.
I agree with you most of the time regarding this issue.

However, Thornton only had a little bit over 6 1/2 minutes in tonight's game.

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05-21-2013, 10:07 PM
  #652
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
I agree with you most of the time regarding this issue.

However, Thornton only had a little bit over 6 1/2 minutes in tonight's game.
He "only" had 2 points on 2 goals tonight.

6.5 minutes more than anyone from Montreal played.

And they're up 3-0 in the series.

And Thornton has won 2 cups.

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05-22-2013, 01:04 AM
  #653
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Did anyone watch the Bruins Rangers game tonight?

If you did, maybe you saw (or for a lot on this thread.......ignored) the proper and effective use of an enforcer on the ice.

In the 3rd Period, the Rangers Derek Dorsett went after the Nose Marchand. Dorsett got in Marchand's face, challenged him to a fight and chased him all across the ice.

The NEXT shift that Derek Dorsett took, Shawn Thornton hopped over the boards and immediately started shoving Dorsett and challenged him to a fight. Of course, Dorsett declined.

Derek Dorsett left Marchand alone for the rest of the game.


Of course, the enforcer nay-sayers will find something to dismiss this away and pretend that it really did not happen.

It ****ing sucks that the team that I hate the most has figured out how to allow skill players to play hockey without worrying about being harassed and gooned.

I hope Bergevin was watching the game.
Wrong, it's actually on the same shift, after the whislte they replaced Marchand by Thornton for a face off in the offensive zone...

say what you want about Thornton challenging Dorsett, but reality is, CJ replaced, for a face off in the offensive zone, one of his best forwards by a goon...

considering Marchand didnt do much in this game, I'd say Dorsett did everything right.

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05-22-2013, 05:59 AM
  #654
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To me the point is moot; every darn team is packing a puncher or is in the process of getting one and Montreal will have to do the same soon. I mean saying that were a "speedy team with talent" is sending the message to any Habs player that they are not worth having an real enforcer to right the wrongs done against them.

Yes we may be a "speedy team with talent" but we will also be known as a very soft team with no backbone that has only one player tough enough to defend his team mates. Take him out of the equation and the pickings are easy against Montreal be it at home or not...

We all in here played hockey against good teams and i was one with limited offensive talent but i could skate and hit hard and i know for a fact that hitting the other team at will with no one to stop a less talented player like me would affect the opposing team a lot, even back in Junior B!

That has NEVER changed and the NHL will NEVER change: big tough intimidating guys that can fight will always have way more influence on a game than one thinks. And it SELLS tickets so it WONT go away! (The NHL wont let the big guys go away...) Might as well accept that and have the right equipment to act accordingly.

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05-22-2013, 06:08 AM
  #655
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Did anyone watch the Bruins Rangers game tonight?

If you did, maybe you saw (or for a lot on this thread.......ignored) the proper and effective use of an enforcer on the ice.

In the 3rd Period, the Rangers Derek Dorsett went after the Nose Marchand. Dorsett got in Marchand's face, challenged him to a fight and chased him all across the ice.

The NEXT shift that Derek Dorsett took, Shawn Thornton hopped over the boards and immediately started shoving Dorsett and challenged him to a fight. Of course, Dorsett declined.

Derek Dorsett left Marchand alone for the rest of the game.


Of course, the enforcer nay-sayers will find something to dismiss this away and pretend that it really did not happen.

It ****ing sucks that the team that I hate the most has figured out how to allow skill players to play hockey without worrying about being harassed and gooned.

I hope Bergevin was watching the game.
Thornton is one hell of an enforcer and one that you can trust to play quality minutes when he's on the ice. Much more than just a goon imo

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05-22-2013, 06:57 AM
  #656
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Did anyone watch the Bruins Rangers game tonight?

If you did, maybe you saw (or for a lot on this thread.......ignored) the proper and effective use of an enforcer on the ice.

In the 3rd Period, the Rangers Derek Dorsett went after the Nose Marchand. Dorsett got in Marchand's face, challenged him to a fight and chased him all across the ice.

The NEXT shift that Derek Dorsett took, Shawn Thornton hopped over the boards and immediately started shoving Dorsett and challenged him to a fight. Of course, Dorsett declined.

Derek Dorsett left Marchand alone for the rest of the game.


Of course, the enforcer nay-sayers will find something to dismiss this away and pretend that it really did not happen.

It ****ing sucks that the team that I hate the most has figured out how to allow skill players to play hockey without worrying about being harassed and gooned.

I hope Bergevin was watching the game.
I agree with what you're saying, but to be fair this would be more Prust's job than a guy brought in as 4th line/spare part enforcer. A guy like Moen and White should be able to do this alspo.

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05-22-2013, 08:01 AM
  #657
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
I agree with you most of the time regarding this issue.

However, Thornton only had a little bit over 6 1/2 minutes in tonight's game.
Thornton does average over 8 minutes a game in regular season though and to be fair, the Bruins were trailing for most of last night's game. My point being that he can play and doesn't hurt his team when he's on the ice. He's no liability when he's out there.

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05-22-2013, 08:42 AM
  #658
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Your points are somewhat valid.

I have a question for you. How long have you been a fan of the Habs?
36 years... although I would say I was only a fan in the critical sense after the last dynasty ended in 1980 or so. Before that it was just fun and wins. Fun and wins are nice when you're a kid, but I didn't start appreciating the details of it all until we hit some adversity. I knew the names and stats of every player in the league in 1976, but I probably didn't have a real appreciation for how every player in the league played until after 1980.
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I was a fan when the Canadiens were a respected and successful team. There was pride in the organization and there was pride on the ice when the Habs played.

Over the years, the Habs organization has become known as the softest team in the League.
It sounds to me like you're just bitter and lost in the past to some extent. I don't say that off-handedly purely as an insult either. I've read lots of your posts here. I just don't think you understand how the game and the league have changed, or appreciate how difficult it is for a team to be successful in this league. It's more complex than your posts often seem to make it sound. To me, any time a Habs fan starts talking about "pride", I know s/he's lost sight of the big picture. Every team and player has pride. There's nothing mystical about it. You still need to have a good team that can win hockey games. And it's just very difficult to construct and then maintain that team. Certainly not impossible. And there are multiple avenues and options to getting there. There's no unique formula. Including having fighters or not having fighters. You can go at it either way.
Quote:
And then the Ottawa series comes along and the Habs were humiliated on the scoreboard and on the ice. And Therrien comes along with his childish whining about "rispeck". (Google rispeck and see how many pages come up).

The once proud Habs are now the joke of the League and no teams respect the Canadiens.

My question to you.........are you happy and satisfied with that?
I'm very happy and satisfied with the season the Habs just had. 15th to 2nd is far better than I expected. But it's still a young team and a building process. It sounds to me like you need to get some thicker skin. I live and work surrounded by Sens fans. I don't find any shame whatsoever in the season the Habs just had, and I think your expectations are simply unrealistic if you do.

Most of us would get some fleeting atavistic satisfaction out of having some goon on our team beat their goon in the midst of the 6-1 loss, but at the end of the day, it's still a 6-1 loss and the team still lost its collective cool. The Habs have shown they can beat the Bruins and Leafs just fine, *if* they stick to their game. They can win with speed, skill, and intelligence. If the other team goons it up, they can kill them on the PP in retaliation. But when they lose their focus and start thinking maybe they can muck it up with those teams, it doesn't work. And it won't work any better if they simply add a goon who plays 5 minutes and can't keep up. If anything, that's just going to make matters worse.

The solution is multifaceted. They need to get *better* players, and still maintain focus and discipline at all times. Better can certainly include getting bigger and tougher. Given this year's free agent crop and the paucity of both star players and cap space available to improve via free agency, getting bigger/tougher players may even be the best option for the team at present. But they can't afford to just get bigger and tougher. Bigger and tougher at the expense of getting better doesn't help at all. Unless all you want are the cheap thrills. I want more than that... the Cup.

I believe Marc Bergevin does too, and I think he has demonstrated precisely the kind of layered understanding of the modern game, acknowledges the multifaceted approach that has to be taken to getting there. He passed on the waiver-wire goons when they were available. He did sign a good tough regular-shift UFA in Prust. He is going to draft bigger where practical, but not overlook the sheer talent and BPA smaller players if they're available with our picks instead. He may well try to sign some of the bigger/tougher players I've advocated pursuing, like Murray/Regehr/Scuderi on D, or Bordeleau or Torres up front. He may not. But I think he sees the big picture and understands that a few cheap thrill fight wins aren't the ultimate goal. He's got 50 fights on his NHL card as a player and more in the minors and junior, he knows what it takes... in all areas. And he'll build towards his ultimate goal at a pace the reflects the both the available opportunities and the internal growth of the team, and eschews looking for quick-fixes or cheap thrills along the way. I applaud that. And respect that.

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05-22-2013, 09:14 AM
  #659
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Thornton is one hell of an enforcer and one that you can trust to play quality minutes when he's on the ice. Much more than just a goon imo
no. He follow the "code" way too much. He's a good fighter/player but not enforcer...


And it's funny cause before Boston, he was with Anaheim and he was the number2 guy and was often a scratch. That just show you how much you can be better with more ice time and with a coach who trust you.

Same goes for Peluso before is injury. All the jets fan where piss off after this signing but now, they all want to trade Thorburn because they find out that Peluso is better at everythings.

Add to that Mcgrattan who played on the 3rd line at the end of the year with Calgary and pretty much all their fans want to sign him.

If you never give them a chance to show you what they can do, they will never be good and they will go somewhere else.....

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05-22-2013, 12:15 PM
  #660
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
In the 3rd Period, the Rangers Derek Dorsett went after the Nose Marchand. Dorsett got in Marchand's face, challenged him to a fight and chased him all across the ice.

The NEXT shift that Derek Dorsett took, Shawn Thornton hopped over the boards and immediately started shoving Dorsett and challenged him to a fight. Of course, Dorsett declined.
Exact same thing happens in a Habs game and you would spin it as "Dorsett went after one of our skill players, chased him all over the ice, and no-one did anything, X gave him a shove but didn't even make him fight".

This is the problem when you make anything that happens ever fit in to your existing mindset.

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05-22-2013, 01:17 PM
  #661
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Seems the cases in court (Boogard and others) are adding pressure to reduce the enforcers:
http://blogues.radio-canada.ca/blogu...s-dans-la-lnh/

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05-22-2013, 01:18 PM
  #662
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Exact same thing happens in a Habs game and you would spin it as "Dorsett went after one of our skill players, chased him all over the ice, and no-one did anything, X gave him a shove but didn't even make him fight".

This is the problem when you make anything that happens ever fit in to your existing mindset.
no, because nobody would have try to fight Dorsett with the habs (minus Prust).

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05-22-2013, 01:29 PM
  #663
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Seems the cases in court (Boogard and others) are adding pressure to reduce the enforcers:
http://blogues.radio-canada.ca/blogu...s-dans-la-lnh/
So do we still need enforcers? or even fighters?
We still need more size...

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05-22-2013, 02:23 PM
  #664
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Originally Posted by Monctonscout View Post
I still want a guy in the lineup that will help prevent guys like Subban and Emelin from getting jumped EVEn at the expense of a few extra penalities.
The notion that this can be "prevented" strikes me as unrealistic.

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05-22-2013, 02:32 PM
  #665
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The notion that this can be "prevented" strikes me as unrealistic.
"greatly reduced"?

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05-22-2013, 03:04 PM
  #666
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Originally Posted by Monctonscout View Post
"greatly reduced"?
No way of factually measuring this. It's nothing more than an opinion.
I don't think it changes anything. PK and Price will always be the main targets of opponents. That might change if Gallagher and Galchenyuk also become key top liners, but for now every team will come into a match up versus us saying put pressure on PK and crash into Price as much as possible. That's not gonna change if we have a goon on the fourth line.
Maybe if we have Tinordi with more muscle on, with Emelin back there again, with a more aggressive and bigger Beaulieu as well instead of Diaz, with a bigger physical version of Gorges, with a goon on the fourth next to White and Prust, with the addition of guys similar to Clowe and Clarkson. Ya, if we have all those guys, then ya, there will probably less face washes after the whistles, and PK will be better backed up. Still though, PK will always remain a target.

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05-22-2013, 03:10 PM
  #667
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Originally Posted by Monctonscout View Post
"greatly reduced"?
I don't recall seeing anybody jump Subban, ever. The one time somebody jumped Emelin it actually worked out to our benefit. How much reduction can we really look for in those cases?

I get that we want physicality, in a way that basically helps us score or prevent goals... make space for our skill forwards in the offensive zone, dig pucks out of the corners better, set up shop in front of the goalie, etc... that gives us goals. Don't let people stand on Price's toes, knock opponents around in front of our net, win puck battles in our corners, make opponents more leery about going into our corners or crossing our blueline... prevent some goals.

But I don't know what prevents Chara from jumping Emelin, or that we'd even really want to prevent that.


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05-22-2013, 03:42 PM
  #668
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So do we still need enforcers? or even fighters?
We still need more size...
yes.....

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05-22-2013, 05:31 PM
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Wrong, it's actually on the same shift, after the whislte they replaced Marchand by Thornton for a face off in the offensive zone...

say what you want about Thornton challenging Dorsett, but reality is, CJ replaced, for a face off in the offensive zone, one of his best forwards by a goon...

considering Marchand didnt do much in this game, I'd say Dorsett did everything right.
Next shift, same shift........does it really even matter?

Good attempt to deflect away from reality and that is Thornton went on the ice to have a chat with Dorsett and obviously Dorsett listened.

And another great attempt at deflection. Regardless of your opinion of the performance by Marchand, he no longer had to worry about Dorsett in his face.

Great post by the way. Seriously.

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05-22-2013, 05:34 PM
  #670
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Thornton is one hell of an enforcer and one that you can trust to play quality minutes when he's on the ice. Much more than just a goon imo
Do you know of a player like Thornton that is available to be signed by Bergevin?

If you do, give Marc a call and tell him to get him here for next season.

Nice fantasy approach stating the obvious that is beyond reach. Meanwhile, in the real world, we do not have a talented enforcer nor a no talent hack enforcer and teams exploit that deficiency.

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05-22-2013, 05:39 PM
  #671
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36 years... although I would say I was only a fan in the critical sense after the last dynasty ended in 1980 or so. Before that it was just fun and wins. Fun and wins are nice when you're a kid, but I didn't start appreciating the details of it all until we hit some adversity. I knew the names and stats of every player in the league in 1976, but I probably didn't have a real appreciation for how every player in the league played until after 1980.

It sounds to me like you're just bitter and lost in the past to some extent. I don't say that off-handedly purely as an insult either. I've read lots of your posts here. I just don't think you understand how the game and the league have changed, or appreciate how difficult it is for a team to be successful in this league. It's more complex than your posts often seem to make it sound. To me, any time a Habs fan starts talking about "pride", I know s/he's lost sight of the big picture. Every team and player has pride. There's nothing mystical about it. You still need to have a good team that can win hockey games. And it's just very difficult to construct and then maintain that team. Certainly not impossible. And there are multiple avenues and options to getting there. There's no unique formula. Including having fighters or not having fighters. You can go at it either way.

I'm very happy and satisfied with the season the Habs just had. 15th to 2nd is far better than I expected. But it's still a young team and a building process. It sounds to me like you need to get some thicker skin. I live and work surrounded by Sens fans. I don't find any shame whatsoever in the season the Habs just had, and I think your expectations are simply unrealistic if you do.

Most of us would get some fleeting atavistic satisfaction out of having some goon on our team beat their goon in the midst of the 6-1 loss, but at the end of the day, it's still a 6-1 loss and the team still lost its collective cool. The Habs have shown they can beat the Bruins and Leafs just fine, *if* they stick to their game. They can win with speed, skill, and intelligence. If the other team goons it up, they can kill them on the PP in retaliation. But when they lose their focus and start thinking maybe they can muck it up with those teams, it doesn't work. And it won't work any better if they simply add a goon who plays 5 minutes and can't keep up. If anything, that's just going to make matters worse.

The solution is multifaceted. They need to get *better* players, and still maintain focus and discipline at all times. Better can certainly include getting bigger and tougher. Given this year's free agent crop and the paucity of both star players and cap space available to improve via free agency, getting bigger/tougher players may even be the best option for the team at present. But they can't afford to just get bigger and tougher. Bigger and tougher at the expense of getting better doesn't help at all. Unless all you want are the cheap thrills. I want more than that... the Cup.

I believe Marc Bergevin does too, and I think he has demonstrated precisely the kind of layered understanding of the modern game, acknowledges the multifaceted approach that has to be taken to getting there. He passed on the waiver-wire goons when they were available. He did sign a good tough regular-shift UFA in Prust. He is going to draft bigger where practical, but not overlook the sheer talent and BPA smaller players if they're available with our picks instead. He may well try to sign some of the bigger/tougher players I've advocated pursuing, like Murray/Regehr/Scuderi on D, or Bordeleau or Torres up front. He may not. But I think he sees the big picture and understands that a few cheap thrill fight wins aren't the ultimate goal. He's got 50 fights on his NHL card as a player and more in the minors and junior, he knows what it takes... in all areas. And he'll build towards his ultimate goal at a pace the reflects the both the available opportunities and the internal growth of the team, and eschews looking for quick-fixes or cheap thrills along the way. I applaud that. And respect that.
I wont resort to insults either. It appears that YOU are the one lost in the past.

Think back to the days just a few years ago when the Bruins were soft as butter, the Toronto Maple Leafs were pushovers and the Senators were right there with Montreal as the softest team in the League.

Just last season, Toronto and Ottawa, along with Buffalo, saw a need to have a team with enforcers because Boston decided to make its team tough with Chiarelli taking over.

Think about that before calling be bitter and lost in the past.

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05-23-2013, 09:49 AM
  #672
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Bordeleau will be on L'anitichambre tonight!

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05-23-2013, 05:13 PM
  #673
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Bordeleau will be on L'anitichambre tonight!
If you could, please post up what he says.

With Roy taking over at Colorado, I think that it will be very doubtful that he lets Bordeleau go. Roy likes modern day hockey played by teams like Boston, Toronto etc.

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05-23-2013, 05:20 PM
  #674
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,,,
With Roy taking over at Colorado, I think that it will be very doubtful that he lets Bordeleau go. ...
I once read that Bordeleau has a secret wish of being a player in Montreal so lets hope it happens...

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05-23-2013, 05:23 PM
  #675
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If you could, please post up what he says.

With Roy taking over at Colorado, I think that it will be very doubtful that he lets Bordeleau go. Roy likes modern day hockey played by teams like Boston, Toronto etc.
Most years Quebec didn't have an enforcer so I wouldn't read anything into it. Adam Erne led the team in PIMS with 67 this year. Last year it was Mike Tam with 106.

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