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DeCock: Canes GM Rutherford should review own performance

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Old
05-04-2013, 01:48 PM
  #76
Antonymous
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Fr gods sake, dump Peters this offseason! Even Ellis might not cut it, but we know what we get with Peters. Hot garbage. Hopefully Monahan falls to #5 and we can nab him. But if Peters is on this team next year I might stop watching. I know he's under contract, but we should waive and bury him in the minors. Also, sign LaRose to a 6-year $6m/per with super duper NMC.

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05-08-2013, 07:32 AM
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amaxing Joni Jokel View Post
There should be no debate on whether Jim Rutherford is a horrible general manager. It is accepted fact. The above defense of JR seems to be "we have some good players". Of course we do, every team does. It's the fact that we ice about 10 fringe NHLers on a nightly basis that makes this team bad. How many teams would Corvo, Harrison, Sanguinetti, McBain, Bergeron, Bowman, Westgarth, LaRose, and Brent *not* be healthy scratches on? And that's just what we try to pass off as NHL talent; we get to see a lot more of this garbage called up when one of our very injury prone players who JR has tied up millions of dollars in is shockingly hurt.
Still don't like you.

P.S. The first four sentences of your argument are pedantic and fail many of these tests.

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05-20-2013, 02:29 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Blown Away View Post
DeCock makes a few decent points (Skinner's contract was one), but over all this is an unfair critique.

In hindsight letting Cole walk was not a bad decision. Whitney soured his relationship with JR when he refused used to waive his NTC in his last season as a Cane.

His panning of the Canes player development is a head scratcher. Apparently it is not OK to get players from the college ranks or direct from Juniors.

If you want to criticize JR, focus on the defense and the back up goal tending. The Canes rely too heavily on Cam Ward to play night in and night out and to bail out the defense.

DeCock has really become a negative Nancy lately. Except when he is fawning over Duke basketball.
Agreed. Don't watch a ton of Canes (though I'm trying to expand my southeast hackey watchin) but one criticism of JR has always been his teambuilding philosophy, specifically his unwillingness to draft defensemen in higher rounds since "you spend all this money on them and when they're finally ready, they leave for UFA" so he would rather sign them out of the free agent class instead which is a horrible idea. Hopefully you guys can put that 7M in cap space to use and get some key depth forwards.

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05-20-2013, 03:18 PM
  #79
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It's hard to blame JR for thinking that way when he spent high picks on guys like Tselios, Knyazev, Tanabe, Hagemo who were all huge busts and McBain who seems headed that way. Jack Johnson likely would've turned out the same way if he had opted to sign - even more a disappointment than he already is.

Couple that with getting successful years out of vet acquisitions like Hedican, Wesley, F. Kaberle, Ward, Pitkanen, etc. It's not a bad strategy at all, provided you know when to cut bait.

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Old
05-20-2013, 04:35 PM
  #80
What the Faulk
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McBain was the #60 pick in a not so deep draft. Hagemo was the #58 pick and was looking pretty good, IIRC, before a shoulder injury ended his career. And that's completely leaving Justin Faulk off your list, as well as Brian Dumoulin and Ryan Murphy, all of whom were drafted higher than McBain and Hagemo and are looking more or less like successful picks.

Not sure why you're pointing to guys who were drafted 12, 14 and 16 years ago though.

Side note: Wow, Nikos Tselios being 34 years really puts some things into perspective.

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05-20-2013, 07:27 PM
  #81
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saw a vid a guy posted on the pitts board of dumoulin playing. it was rather short but he looked quite good.

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05-21-2013, 07:42 AM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by What the Faulk View Post
Not sure why you're pointing to guys who were drafted 12, 14 and 16 years ago though.
Not sure why you don't understand how it relates, nor did your reply do anything to logically counter it.

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05-21-2013, 08:41 AM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geehaad View Post
Not sure why you don't understand how it relates, nor did your reply do anything to logically counter it.
His point was that JR is afraid to draft high defensemen, opting to go the free agency route, because he was burned 16 years ago by Nikos Tselios, despite the fact that he drafted Ryan Murphy higher than any of the defensemen mentioned in that post except Jack Johnson.

He also called Hagemo and McBain "huge busts", which they aren't, and ignored the likely successful picks that JR has made in the last couple drafts, all taken higher than those "huge busts".

Trying to make your point by relating to things that happened over a decade ago while ignoring recent history is cherry picking.

I'm sorry but I can't help you put two and two together if you're unable.

And it *is* a bad strategy if you're a budget team with so much money already tied up in forwards. Cheap defensemen (and all positions really) from within are musts to fill out a competitive roster.

He may have shied away once because of Nikos Tselios, but that's not the case anymore.

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05-21-2013, 08:57 AM
  #84
tarheelhockey
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McBain might be disappointing at this stage, but he's already beyond the point of being called a bust, let alone a huge bust.

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05-21-2013, 08:59 AM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by What the Faulk View Post
His point was that JR is afraid to draft high defensemen, opting to go the free agency route, because he was burned 16 years ago by Nikos Tselios, despite the fact that he drafted Ryan Murphy higher than any of the defensemen mentioned in that post except Jack Johnson.

He also called Hagemo and McBain "huge busts", which they aren't, and ignored the likely successful picks that JR has made in the last couple drafts, all taken higher than those "huge busts".

Trying to make your point by relating to things that happened over a decade ago while ignoring recent history is cherry picking.

I'm sorry but I can't help you put two and two together if you're unable.

And it *is* a bad strategy if you're a budget team with so much money already tied up in forwards. Cheap defensemen (and all positions really) from within are musts to fill out a competitive roster.

He may have shied away once because of Nikos Tselios, but that's not the case anymore.
Sorry for not meeting your high faluting ****ing blue ribbon standards of excellence. I swear, I wonder sometimes why I keep posting here. If I want to listen to people nitpick every single point anybody says and act like everybody else is the worst thing inhabiting their little circle of perfection I can just talk to my ***** of a wife instead.

I'm done until the season starts. Have a nice few months, everyone.


Last edited by Roboturner913: 05-21-2013 at 09:10 AM.
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Old
05-21-2013, 10:21 AM
  #86
rocky7
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if i'm following this right, obviously while learning experiences, past perceived failures, "busts" or mistakes shouldn't necassarily dictate what you do today. along that same vein, i have caught some subtle and some not so subtle references to past russian "flops". yet, some have said that jr would be shy or apprehensive in that regard if i'm catching the drift. you would think that due diligence would be carried out no matter which player was to be obtained on an individual basis and there are never any guarantees one way or the other.

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05-22-2013, 10:59 AM
  #87
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I think shying away from defensmen, and taking a guy you had ranked in your top 5 at #12 can happen at the same time.

I think the big change, is that above mediocre dmen have skyrocketed in price in free agency, and JR has reacted by loading up on dmen in the 2nd-4th rounds. But the practice of playing it safe, and taking a forward with the first seems to have stuck. You need your first rounders to pan our, and he seems to think forwards are safer. Which is probably somewhat true.

I'd say Murphy and JJ were cases of the dman available was ranked much higher than the best forward they had on their charts. Trying to turn a general policy into absolutes complicates the discussion a bit, because I doubt JR ever goes into a draft saying "No way I'm taking a dman, no matter what!" rather than "If two guys are close, we'll probably pick the forward."

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05-22-2013, 11:03 AM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wallym View Post
I think shying away from defensmen, and taking a guy you had ranked in your top 5 at #12 can happen at the same time.

I think the big change, is that above mediocre dmen have skyrocketed in price in free agency, and JR has reacted by loading up on dmen in the 2nd-4th rounds. But the practice of playing it safe, and taking a forward with the first seems to have stuck. You need your first rounders to pan our, and he seems to think forwards are safer. Which is probably somewhat true.

I'd say Murphy and JJ were cases of the dman available was ranked much higher than the best forward they had on their charts. Trying to turn a general policy into absolutes complicates the discussion a bit, because I doubt JR ever goes into a draft saying "No way I'm taking a dman, no matter what!" rather than "If two guys are close, we'll probably pick the forward."
Sad thing on JJ is that IIRC Canes scouting had Marc Staal ranked #3 on their board and JJ ranked #4. Or it was something like that. Basically it came down to scouting being torn on which of the two they wanted, having both just about equal, with the head scout preferring Staal and Rutherford/Karmanos preferring Johnson.

But yeah, that's exactly right. Saying you prefer to stay away from dmen in the first round does not preclude one from drafting dmen in the first round. If scouting has a player clearly as the best guy on the board (Murphy at #5 being there at #12) then you go with that player regardless of if it's a position of need or one you even want to draft.

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Old
05-22-2013, 11:40 AM
  #89
What the Faulk
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I thought the story in 2005 was that they had Jack Johnson at #2 and Marc at #3, so when Anaheim inexplicably passed on Johnson for Bobby Ryan, they jumped all over him?

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05-22-2013, 11:50 AM
  #90
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Originally Posted by What the Faulk View Post
I thought the story in 2005 was that they had Jack Johnson at #2 and Marc at #3, so when Anaheim inexplicably passed on Johnson for Bobby Ryan, they jumped all over him?
Might have been the case. Either way I know one of the two dmen was at #3 and scouting was basically torn on which of the two to draft.

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