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Trade Rumours and Proposals Thread Part 18:Soli Smells Like He Needs a Shower Edition

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Old
05-22-2013, 10:11 AM
  #26
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Originally Posted by Jimmi Jenkins View Post
So I've heard mention of "oh noes who plays Centerz" with the Nuge possibly not ready for the start of the season, the trading of Gagner, buying out of Horcoff and buying out/trading/getting rid of Belanger.

From the UFA group there are some guys you can use to "patch" the spot until the Nuge gets back.


2nd/3rd any 2 of Roy, Bozak, Cullen, Weiss, MacDonald, Fillpula(Hemsky83 will love this because Detroit *Drools*) Lombardi and

3rd/4th any 2 of Chipchura, Gordon, Adams, Lapierre, Steckel, Regin, Brent, Hall and Santorelli

So maybe

MacDonald 1yrs $5M, Cullen 2yr $4M, Gordon 2yr $1.75M and Chipchura 1yr $1M

Then you have some depth if other changes are made. Not saying their world beaters, just some depth along with The Nuge and Lander (and maybe a 2013 1st rounder) when the group is healthy.
As much as I'd love for the team to buy out Horcoff, none of the 2nd/3rd guys you listed really fit. Weiss is going to a Horcoffian contract to play a top 6 role, Roy and Bozak are Gagner-lite, and MacDonald is more of a top 6 player. The rest of them are downgrades. Cheaper, but still downgrades.

Aside from Steckel, who's probably going to get a massive pay raise, I'd be interested in pretty much everyone you listed in the 3rd/4th category over Belanger.

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05-22-2013, 10:13 AM
  #27
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Article in Winnipeg Freepress stating Burmistrov wants out. Asked for trade at past deadline and now says will not play with the Jets (but will not sign in KHL according to agent)

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05-22-2013, 11:12 AM
  #28
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Is anyone else as confused as to why people continue to suggest that Couturier is available out of Philly as I am?

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05-22-2013, 12:09 PM
  #29
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Trade Rumours and Proposals Thread Part 18:Soli Smells Like He Needs a Shower Edition

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05-22-2013, 12:56 PM
  #30
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I'm not buying this argument. I find that these older players coming out of college are much closer to their peak-level of performance than they are as young teenage pro rookies. I feel age is a bigger factor into their development than what "pro year" they're in.
How much better did a 23-year old Gilbert get from his rookie season? How much better did a 23-year old Petry get from his first full NHL season?

And re: the burn-out - where was Carlson's burn-out in 2010? McDonagh's a year later? Both were leaned on Schultz-style in the AHL in their first pro years and performed even better later on in the season.


Age to me is a bigger factor than "pro year".
There is always a learning curve when entering the pro's, I don't care how good you are. Carlson took a big step forward in his sophomore year likely due to being spent by the end of his rookie year as did McDonagh so maybe you should take a look at these things before pointing to them as examples that should be adding to your side of the debate when you are just helping my cause. I would venture to say that NONE of these players that you've listed played the amount of hockey in their rookie seasons that J. Schultz did this past season and I doubt that I'd be wrong.

Comparing Petry and Gilbert to J. Schultz is ridiculous, it really is. J. Schultz is not some 28 year old rookie, he has lots of room to grow and is much better than the rookies that we've broken in from the NCAA.

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Injuries to RNH/Eberle this year are like injuries to RNH/Hall the year before. The PP still performed. You arguing that I'm suggesting Gilbert is a PP wizard while Schultz is some goat is nonsensical. My point is that core top-unit group of Ebs/RNH/Horc/Gagner/Hall in some combination is an elite-level group of PP forwards. There was production before Schultz came. There was production after Schultz came. He's not why our PP was top-10 last year, nor was Gilbert/Petry the reason it was top-3 the year before. They are interchangeable parts on an otherwise elite unit.
Do you honestly believe the bolded? A dinged up RNH the whole season has a bigger effect on our PP than any other player on the team. Eberle's finger issue and early struggles took him off that top unit meaning that we had Hemsky (a far inferior player on the PP) out there.

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So you don't think Schultz's inability to get the transition started as an "offensive defenseman" was a contributing factor the Oilers poor ES production?
He moved the puck well IMO, he didn't carry it as much as I would've liked to have seen, how much of that was due to coaching or burn out is unknown.

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Obviously this team's inability to score is a confounding factor in all this - but his addition to the team has seemingly done nothing to improve the team's ES production (1.71 ES goals/game this year, 1.70 ES goals/game the year before).
That's actually pretty good considering that RNH and Eberle had sub par years TBH.

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And forget numbers, just watch Justin Schultz try to get the transition started at even strength. It's something he's not able to do with any ease. I'm sure he'll learn it with time. But I don't think it will be at an exponential rate. He simply can't rely upon the college-style "rover" plays where he leads the rush into the opposition zone because he's not an elite-level skating defenseman like Karlsson/Niedermayer/Keith/Letang are/were. You need that level of skating to come back and be the first guy back.
I didn't see any issues early on in the season, that said you don't believe that a player can get overworked/burnt out so there's no sense in debating this part of your point, you know my answer and you don't buy it just like I don't buy many of yours.

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Schultz IMO is cognisant that his elite-level college skating is merely "very good" skating at the NHL level. It's why he's shown a hesitation to lead the rush the way he did in college. It's something Brendan Smith in Detroit is slowly starting to figure out right now as well.
His skating is more than good enough to lead the rush.

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No, it wouldn't. Shattenkirk got steadily better in his rookie season. Schultz's production got steadily worse. The most objective thing to do is use what you have - the entire season - as a comparison.
Well then if that's how you want to play it then add in their AHL stats too. Shattenkirk showed nothing close to the dominance that Schultz showed in the AHL at any level in his rookie year.

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STL finished 10th last in the league that year. EDM finished 7th last. A +7 on a 10th last team is much better than a -17 on a 7th last team. And he was playing top-4 minutes throughout that season.
I think that it'd pretty fair to say that we had a worse defense and that they still had a better overall team than we did. Perhaps they went on a bit of a run as a team after the trade? I'm too lazy to look it up, but it still doesn't take away his -11 from Colorado, nor does it tell us how he would've been if he kept playing there.

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Where were Carlson and McDonagh's burn-outs in 2010 and 2011 respectively after being thrust into the same role in the AHL early in their pro careers?
They took steps forward the next season, something that you seem to think impossible because Gilbert didn't

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I'll certainly take that deal for ES production. Not the >3min of PP time Schultz gets on a #1 unit that produced just as well with him that they did without him.
ST. Louis is a superior ES team, Shattenkirk will likely get more ES points and a better +/- because of it. The bet was points, not ES or PP points. If you think that he's so interchangeable with Potter and Petry then you should be quite confident in making this bet since there's a VERY good chance that one or both of them will take his spot on the PP. Right?

Again, like I said earlier, I value ES play over PP production.

Quote:
For example, a player that puts up 35 points with a 25:10 ES: PP ratio playing secondary PP time is more valuable to me than a 40-pt scorer with a 10:30 ES: PP ratio on an elite top unit on which he has seemingly done nothing to improve their production.
That's nice and all, but lots of defensemen make hay on the PP most of the elite offensive D do.

And yeah Schultz didn't help our PP, he hurt it, that's why he was tied for the team lead in PP points, and had 8 more PP points than all of our other D COMBINED and why he would've led last year's team in PP points from a defenseman despite playing just 48 games this year.

As for how bad he was creating offense at ES:

Suter, Pietrangelo (1 less gp), Carlson and McDonagh had 5 more points
Keith, OEL, and Weber had 4 more points
Shattenkirk had a WHOPPING 2 more points
Doughty had the same amount of ES points
Del Zotto had the same amount but played 2 less games
Subban had the same amount of points in 6 less games
Edler had the same amount in 3 less games
Josi (who you would trade Schultz for) had 1 less
Dan Boyle had 6 less points

Yeah J. Schultz shoudl REALLY hang his head in shame.

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I'm more excited about the performance of a 20-year old Faulk, given his developmental potential than a 22-year old Justin Schultz. Yes, I'll maintain that. To me they're of equivalent value at this point.
You keep on keeping on then, I wouldn't trade Schultz for Faulk period.

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I honestly don't know how other fans around the league perceive it, and I'd be interested in seeing how a Main Board Poll rates it.
Wow, that's the best that you've got after all of the chirping that you did last year? At least I know that I can look forward to that next year when Schultz gives you the same sort of silence when you realize that you bet on the wrong horse again.

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05-22-2013, 12:59 PM
  #31
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Top 5 Center in the league.
Agreed. He is going to be a very special player.

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05-22-2013, 01:04 PM
  #32
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Top 5 Center in the league.
Crosby, Malkin, Stamkos, Tavares, Giroux, you see him being better then these guys in the next 5 years? Not to mention all the other young centers coming into the league in the next 4 years like Connor Mcdavid, etc... I see him as maybe a top 10 center in the league but I wouldn't put him head to head against some of the other guys outside the top 5 but are in the top 10 like Staal, Kopitar, Toews.

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05-22-2013, 01:16 PM
  #33
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Top 5 may be pushing it, but it's not like it's completely out of the realm of possibility either. Giroux didn't put up 1st line numbers until he was 22 and in his 3rd NHL season. RNH had #1C production as an 18 year old rookie.

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05-22-2013, 01:19 PM
  #34
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Crosby, Malkin, Stamkos, Tavares, Giroux, you see him being better then these guys in the next 5 years? Not to mention all the other young centers coming into the league in the next 4 years like Connor Mcdavid, etc... I see him as maybe a top 10 center in the league but I wouldn't put him head to head against some of the other guys outside the top 5 but are in the top 10 like Staal, Kopitar, Toews.
I see him challenging for the top 5 for sure in that time. Personally I'd take Toews over Giroux.

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05-22-2013, 01:22 PM
  #35
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Having drafted Justin Faulk in my fantasy pool last year, I got to watch a few Hurricanes games (more than any sane Edmontonian should be watching) and if Schultz becomes half the defender Faulk is we're gonna have a gem.

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05-22-2013, 01:25 PM
  #36
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LOL, of course it's a "what if". He was still young enough to play in the WJC this season for cripe sakes so of course, he's filled with "what ifs".
I see you proposing RNH deals a lot and i, for the life of me, can't understand why.
It seems that you dislike skilled players and just want a team full of coke machines.
I understand that the team needs toughness in the worst way but there is no way (absoutely no way) that any of "The Big 4" forwards should be dealt now especially RNH who IMO, is the biggest untouchable on the team.
The Oilers lose any realistic trade with RNH going the other way.

I will go on record now guaranteeing that he will be at the very least a top 10 center in the league within the next 3 seasons. Not only does he have elite level offensive skill but his defensive game has come a long way and he not only doesn't shy away from physicality, he initiates (when healthy) so there is no way that he should be dealt under any realistic circumstance. Dealing him is the definition of insanity.

First, there was the poster saying that Arcobello is a better option than Gagner and now this?
Man, it's gonna be a loooooooong offseason around here.
I'm not in love with coke machines, but I like the idea of having two lines that can go out and contribute at a high level and play against the bigger centers in the league. If you get a solid two way center who can put up 50-60 points to play between Hall and Eberle that would be a solid line. Then you put Yakupov with Gagner or another center who can potentially put up 50+ points and you have two lines that that are difficult to defend against. You trade one of the wingers and you lose that ability. And if we did trade RNH I'd expect a huge return. It's not like I'd trade him just to get rid of him, it would need to improve the team.

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05-22-2013, 01:28 PM
  #37
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Top 5 may be pushing it, but it's not like it's completely out of the realm of possibility either. Giroux didn't put up 1st line numbers until he was 22 and in his 3rd NHL season. RNH had #1C production as an 18 year old rookie.
He may of had the production but his game is severely lacking in other areas due to his stature.

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05-22-2013, 01:36 PM
  #38
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He may of had the production but his game is severely lacking in other areas due to his stature.
He's 6'1. He'll fill out.

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05-22-2013, 01:38 PM
  #39
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Having drafted Justin Faulk in my fantasy pool last year, I got to watch a few Hurricanes games (more than any sane Edmontonian should be watching) and if Schultz becomes half the defender Faulk is we're gonna have a gem.
Sshhh don't tell BBO. Players he hasn't seen cannot possibly be better than Schultz.

And if they're 2 years younger than him Schultz still has more potential than them!!

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1433841

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05-22-2013, 01:44 PM
  #40
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He's 6'1. He'll fill out.
In 8 years maybe, he's an ectomorph to the tee. I'll be surprised if he's ever over 200lbs even 190 is pushing it IMO.

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05-22-2013, 01:47 PM
  #41
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In 8 years maybe, he's an ectomorph to the tee. I'll be surprised if he's ever over 200lbs even 190 is pushing it IMO.
I was a classic ectomorph growing up, skinnier than RNH even and about the same height. I was 6'0 even and 150 pounds coming out of high school.

I was able to get up to 200 pounds by the time I was 25 by weight training and simply eating more. And that was a slow burn, if my job depended on it and I had personal chef or something, I'd probably have gotten there sooner.

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05-22-2013, 01:47 PM
  #42
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So... there is speculation that the Rangers may amnesty Brad Richards this offseason due to his poor play this season.

He would be an instant MacT target.

And if you signed him to a deal worth 3M/year it might not be bad at all...

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05-22-2013, 01:48 PM
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If 6'1'' 190lbs is too small to be a #1C, there'd only be about 5 in the entire league.

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05-22-2013, 01:49 PM
  #44
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So... there is speculation that the Rangers may amnesty Brad Richards this offseason due to his poor play this season.

He would be an instant MacT target.

And if you signed him to a deal worth 3M/year it might not be bad at all...
Unfortunately if that was the case many teams would be bidding on him.

Calgary would probably offer a stupid contract, the Islanders would likely have interest also (and Richards wouldn't have to move in this case) just off the top of my head.

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05-22-2013, 01:50 PM
  #45
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So... there is speculation that the Rangers may amnesty Brad Richards this offseason due to his poor play this season.

He would be an instant MacT target.

And if you signed him to a deal worth 3M/year it might not be bad at all...
Stauffer has talked about Richards on today's show....

Thinks he will be traded this offseason

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05-22-2013, 01:53 PM
  #46
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So... there is speculation that the Rangers may amnesty Brad Richards this offseason due to his poor play this season.

He would be an instant MacT target.

And if you signed him to a deal worth 3M/year it might not be bad at all...
Should do fine with 2C minutes and with scoring forwards. Can also play the left point on PP. very useful.

He's still got some game left. And he's done well in physical series' before (SJS-DAL 5-6yrs back). Should be fine playing in the Pacific next year

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05-22-2013, 01:53 PM
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Unfortunately if that was the case many teams would be bidding on him.

Calgary would probably offer a stupid contract, the Islanders would likely have interest also (and Richards wouldn't have to move in this case) just off the top of my head.
Depends on what he's looking for. If he's looking to end his career as "the guy", then Calgary would be a good bet. If he's looking to play a secondary role without the pressure of being a #1, then Edmonton (as well as other teams) would be a better fit.

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05-22-2013, 01:54 PM
  #48
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If 6'1'' 190lbs is too small to be a #1C, there'd only be about 5 in the entire league.
lol yeah dude 2" and 10lbs is the difference between #1C and #3C. the whole size debate is blown out of proportion.

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05-22-2013, 01:55 PM
  #49
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I was a classic ectomorph growing up, skinnier than RNH even and about the same height. I was 6'0 even and 150 pounds coming out of high school.

I was able to get up to 200 pounds by the time I was 25 by weight training and simply eating more. And that was a slow burn, if my job depended on it and I had personal chef or something, I'd probably have gotten there sooner.
Maybe, Maybe not, because of the amount of calories your body would be burning at the younger age. RNH's is one of the smallest NHL players I've ever seen build wise, I have a hard time seeing him getting over 190lbs before his 25th birthday. I may be wrong, but i guess we'll have to wait and see.

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05-22-2013, 01:55 PM
  #50
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If 6'1'' 190lbs is too small to be a #1C, there'd only be about 5 in the entire league.
Malkin is 6'3 and <200lb. Same body type. Very strong. Sometimes being strong on your skates (like Nuge) is all you need.

Datsyuk is 5'11 and 195lb. Ask Thornton and Kopitar how it feels to take the puck away from him. Or win a board battle. Or even take a hit (Penner can attest to that).

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