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Old
05-22-2013, 12:39 PM
  #976
Diamonddog01
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
If the Canucks wanted to just dump Booth, I would move him for Tanguay at full salary, no pick, and maybe a Labate level prospect.

But, I wouldn't do that deal. I seem to place more value in Booth than most do here.
I like Booth too, and I happen to feel that his injuries are more of a flukey nature than the fact he's injury prone.

I would like to upgrade his spot however if we could - but I think it's pretty unlikely. I think we will have Sedins, Kesler, Burrows and Kassian (this is largely due to the fact he's the only potential top 6 player on an ELC we have) as 5 of our top 6.

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05-22-2013, 12:43 PM
  #977
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Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
Toews will not shut up about the refs thus far. Would you trade him if some moron insinuated officiating bias? What of Kesler?
I'm sure you can see the difference between complaining about refereeing and openly stating that a ref used a personal bias to "punish" a player which directly resulted the result of a game. You can certainly see the difference.

In one instance a person fired, in the other, one doesn't.

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First and foremost, no consultant or veteran would ever acknowledge even slight bias due to Gillis and/or Aquilini using it as a catalyst to threaten the league. Give that to the media and unless NHL did a wholesale investigation and promptly fired a good portion of their refs, it would be a PR nightmare.
People acknowledge completely illegal things behind closed doors all the time. I'm sure referees talk about players they had and incidents they didn't like for a very long time. The whole idea that the Canucks are going to threaten the league is asinine. If the Canucks decide to "take down" the league how does that help the Canucks?

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You are advocating we trade a quality player because the refs may dislike us. It is a ridiculous notion, especially since there is no certifiable evidence.
Let's say there is no certifiable evidence but our referee consultant basically tells us that we need to do it or else we will continue to get the shaft from some referees. Is it still a bad idea? Would you rather fight the referees with Burrows or trade him and be done with the whole mess?

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Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
And with the exception of game two, what suggests we were remotely the better team that the penalty discrepancy warranted a "complete series change?" Schneider was awful, our powerplay was awful and a good majority of the roster had no impact. Even if we did muscle a game out of that series, we were going to lose playing the way we did, refs or otherwise.
The fact that were winning game 1 before a few questionable calls led to the Sharks tying the game. The fact that we were winning game 2 with a minute left despite having questionable calls against us. The fact that we were winning game 4 until we got called with questionable late penalties late in the 3rd and in overtime.

Winning and losing affects perception a lot, we lost in 4 which makes you believe there was a huge gulf between the team but the reality is, it only take a little shift for a win to become a loss and vice versa.

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Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
Except it is not universally exclusive to the Canucks. Toronto suffered terrible officiating, Montreal, Pittsburgh and Chicago even. We may see slightly more on a general average but the difference far from what you are implying.
I make money based on referee bias. It's not always against a team, a lot of time it's based on how well referees can handle pressure form home crowds.

I agree, the standard for the level of refereeing in the league is terrible. I hate the NHL but love hockey so I deal with it.

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Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
Honestly? "If you're going to be a ******, probably best not to tell the guy." And I would wash my hands of it. If some idiot co-worker decides to blatantly voice his bias and has to deal with the ensuing and inevitable drama, I could care else. It is neither my concern nor my problem. I have a job to do and am not going to potentially jeopardize it to "get back" at someone who frankly, ratted out an idiot. And especially would not hold a now three year grudge.

And therein lies my biggest claim to the contrary. Three years? I've known girlfriends with less of an ax to grind in that length of time.
People hold grudges forever. Breakups happen in different ways, I'm going to bet that any girl you had a bad breakup with will never tell another girl that you are a good guy.

At work, and in business, relationships mean a lot. I had a bad experience with one firm (kind of upset one of my clients). Now I won't refer them any clients and if I get asked about them I usually recommend alternatives...I'm not going out of my way to screw them but I am certainly not going out of my way to help them either and they would lose any 50/50 decisions that I'm involved in. Does it kill their firm that I won't send any work there way? Nope, probably only costs them about $100K a year at this point (four clients) with that number growing as other colleagues ask me what I think of them. (For those who know me on here in real life - it's not my old firm whom I have a great relationship with).

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Old
05-22-2013, 12:45 PM
  #978
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
I don't look at a 23 goal pace, with size and his skating ability, as not showing anything. But that's me.

Do you think it guaranteed that he is gone?
I think if he didn't have an injury that affected his buy-out status that he more than likely would be gone. As that is not the case I wouldn't be surprised if he is back and underachieving once again next season.

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05-22-2013, 12:47 PM
  #979
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Originally Posted by Diamonddog01 View Post
I like Booth too, and I happen to feel that his injuries are more of a flukey nature than the fact he's injury prone.

I would like to upgrade his spot however if we could - but I think it's pretty unlikely. I think we will have Sedins, Kesler, Burrows and Kassian (this is largely due to the fact he's the only potential top 6 player on an ELC we have) as 5 of our top 6.
So essentially you think that there won't be any changes from this past season and we can expect failure once again? Three straight first round embarrassments and four straight pathetic offensive showings in the playoffs? Will that finally be enough to cause change?

While Jordan Schroeder is no longer on an ELC, I expect his contract to be fairly cheap next season. If Kassian is a top 6er then why wouldn't Schroeder be?

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05-22-2013, 12:48 PM
  #980
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Originally Posted by Diamonddog01 View Post
I like Booth too, and I happen to feel that his injuries are more of a flukey nature than the fact he's injury prone.

I would like to upgrade his spot however if we could - but I think it's pretty unlikely. I think we will have Sedins, Kesler, Burrows and Kassian (this is largely due to the fact he's the only potential top 6 player on an ELC we have) as 5 of our top 6.


It's two camps. One that sees Booth's injuries as him being injury prone, and those that see them as injuries inflicted upon him. Where one fits here determines how they generally value Booth.

Size on the wing is something Gillis has been pushing for. He went after Torres and Clowe, in addition to guys like Roy. It seems he will sacrifice size at C, but will be less prone to doing so at wing. However, I do recall rumours of him targeting Jokinen and Tanguay at the deadlines... so who knows?

I wouldn't mind Tanguay being brought in, to "finish off" the top 6, but not at the expense of another top6 forward. Especially one with size.

Doubt a trade goes down between CGY and VAN anyhow.

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05-22-2013, 12:54 PM
  #981
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
I think if he didn't have an injury that affected his buy-out status that he more than likely would be gone. As that is not the case I wouldn't be surprised if he is back and underachieving once again next season.

The Canucks can't use the buyout near the start of next season? One would think that Booth would be fully healed at this time... If so, there's nothing preventing it from happening at that point.

It just seems like you're leaving the door open for you not to be proven wrong, if/when he is brought back.


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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
So essentially you think that there won't be any changes from this past season and we can expect failure once again? Three straight first round embarrassments and four straight pathetic offensive showings in the playoffs? Will that finally be enough to cause change?

While Jordan Schroeder is no longer on an ELC, I expect his contract to be fairly cheap next season. If Kassian is a top 6er then why wouldn't Schroeder be?


There are three spots open, as far as I can tell, but the money will be tight:

Sedin-Sedin-Burrows
Booth-Kesler-XXXX
Higgins-XXXX-Hansen
XXXX-Schroeder-Kassian
Sestito-Weise

So a 2nd line RW, a 3C, and a 4th line LW. With about 3-3.5m to spend. It's possible they get someone like Torres for the top6 spot, Goc/Prospect for the 3C spot, and a near league minimum 4th liner. Not big changes, but enough that it could balance the team.

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05-22-2013, 01:05 PM
  #982
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
The Canucks can't use the buyout near the start of next season? One would think that Booth would be fully healed at this time... If so, there's nothing preventing it from happening at that point.

It just seems like you're leaving the door open for you not to be proven wrong, if/when he is brought back.
Logic. Why would the Canucks buy him out towards the beginning of next season when all of the quality free agents will likely be gone by then? As you've said yourself, what use is unused cap space to the team? The only reason why I am in favour of buying him out is because there is an opportunity to improve on him with that cap space, but if the players we would be targeting are all signed elsewhere then what is the point?


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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
There are three spots open, as far as I can tell, but the money will be tight:

Sedin-Sedin-Burrows
Booth-Kesler-XXXX
Higgins-XXXX-Hansen
XXXX-Schroeder-Kassian
Sestito-Weise

So a 2nd line RW, a 3C, and a 4th line LW. With about 3-3.5m to spend. It's possible they get someone like Torres for the top6 spot, Goc/Prospect for the 3C spot, and a near league minimum 4th liner. Not big changes, but enough that it could balance the team.
Looks like a pretty crappy lineup for next year if you ask me. I don't see how this team gets out of the first round, and wouldn't at all be surprised if they miss the playoffs. I guess we need a fourth straight embarrassing offense for change to happen, eh?

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Old
05-22-2013, 01:15 PM
  #983
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
The Canucks can't use the buyout near the start of next season? One would think that Booth would be fully healed at this time... If so, there's nothing preventing it from happening at that point.
Compliance buyouts have to occur during the ordinary course buyout period. The only exception was in January.

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Old
05-22-2013, 01:16 PM
  #984
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Logic. Why would the Canucks buy him out towards the beginning of next season when all of the quality free agents will likely be gone by then? As you've said yourself, what use is unused cap space to the team? The only reason why I am in favour of buying him out is because there is an opportunity to improve on him with that cap space, but if the players we would be targeting are all signed elsewhere then what is the point?

But then, even if you buy him out, there's no guarantee that you are getting an upgrade via FA regardless. Said player could pass on coming to VAN. Could want too much. etc... We could be left with a downgrade, is that better? Logic.

Edit: That makes sense, thanks opendoor. So there's still the trade market. Booth could be traded, but that will likely be a net negative if the proper value isn't brought back. It seems its not as easy to just get rid of Booth, there must also be caveats. One wonders why that is, if all others want to do is get rid of him?


Quote:
Looks like a pretty crappy lineup for next year if you ask me. I don't see how this team gets out of the first round, and wouldn't at all be surprised if they miss the playoffs. I guess we need a fourth straight embarrassing offense for change to happen, eh?

The Oilers are always in need of fans. Maybe their roster would be more to your liking?

I have no issues with bringing the same core back. Surrounded by better depth, they should do better. And if the offense fails to click again, then better depth will have to be brought in. The core, however, seldom changes.

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05-22-2013, 01:24 PM
  #985
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
I have no issues with bringing the same core back. Surrounded by better depth, they should do better. And if the offense fails to click again, then better depth will have to be brought in. The core, however, seldom changes.
But if we have the opportunity to upgrade, why not do so? Tanguay is better and cheaper than Booth. A few spare parts is well worth it, especially as it gives us a much better chance to land an impact UFA.

I'm all for gettinge better depth players, but we shouldn't just ignore the top-6's failure to produce in the playoffs.

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05-22-2013, 01:36 PM
  #986
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Buyout Ballard.

Clutterbuck for McNally+Greiner. Agreed to by Wild fans.

Booth+2014 2nd+Labate for Tanguay. Agreed to by Calgary fans.

2013 3rd+McEneny(?another prospect?) for Chris Kelly. Pending Bostons approval, but apparently he is available...they'd rather move Peverly first is all.

Move Luongo for futures.

Resign Clutterbuck, Tanev, Weise, Schroeder, Pinner, Alberts and Sauve (I don't believe he is waiver exempt any more...).

CAPGEEK.COM USER GENERATED ROSTER
My Custom Lineup
FORWARDS
Daniel Sedin ($6.100m) / Henrik Sedin ($6.100m) / Alexandre Burrows ($4.500m)
Alex Tanguay ($3.500m) / Ryan Kesler ($5.000m) / Jannik Hansen ($1.350m)
Chris Higgins ($2.500m) / Jordan Schroeder ($0.851m) / Cal Clutterbuck ($1.700m)
Dale Weise ($0.677m) / Chris Kelly ($3.000m) / Zack Kassian ($0.870m)
Steve Pinizzotto ($0.600m)
DEFENSEMEN
Alexander Edler ($5.000m) / Jason Garrison ($4.600m)
Dan Hamhuis ($4.500m) / Kevin Bieksa ($4.600m)
Andrew Alberts ($1.225m) / Chris Tanev ($1.500m)
Yann Sauve ($0.709m) /
GOALTENDERS
Cory Schneider ($4.000m)
Eddie Lack ($0.750m)
OTHER
Buyout: Keith Ballard ($0.000m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled with the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $63,630,750; BONUSES: $0
CAP SPACE (22-man roster): $669,250

A standard top scoring line, a middle six with interchangeable parts (Tanguay, Higgins and Schroeder for an offensive component to a line, with Kesler, Hansen and Clutterbuck to play defensively responsibly), and a bottom line with Kelly, Kassian and one of the spare wingers we have. Replace Weise or Pinner with your favourite, but I like them more then Sestito tbh. Maybe see about getting Glass from Pittsburgh...

Standard defensive lines, and I'd rather give Sauve a chance in the bigs then lose him on waivers.

"Big" moves can still be made before the draft, but I'm still waiting on Vignaults firing before an overhaul is done. 3 small trades, a buyout and a long overdue trade.

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Old
05-22-2013, 01:39 PM
  #987
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Wouldnt do those trades.

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05-22-2013, 01:41 PM
  #988
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
But if we have the opportunity to upgrade, why not do so? Tanguay is better and cheaper than Booth. A few spare parts is well worth it, especially as it gives us a much better chance to land an impact UFA.

I'm all for gettinge better depth players, but we shouldn't just ignore the top-6's failure to produce in the playoffs.

A 2nd is not a spare part to me. I wouldn't mind Booth+low end prospect for Tanguay at full salary. The pick is out for me.

I like Tanguay, don't get me wrong. I just think that if they're selling, that I would want Tanguay added to what we have, rather than replacing something. If a subsequent deal could be made to get say, Dubinsky, then I'm onboard.

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05-22-2013, 01:43 PM
  #989
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
I have no issues with bringing the same core back. Surrounded by better depth, they should do better. And if the offense fails to click again, then better depth will have to be brought in. The core, however, seldom changes.
So you have no issues with this teams under performance in the past couple of seasons, and three straight years of embarrassing offensive showings in the playoffs? That's fine. Personally, I don't find it acceptable and would much rather see the team actively look to improve rather than recycle some third and fourth liners, close our eyes, and hope that somehow magically our core gets lucky and all of a sudden develops a scoring touch in the playoffs.

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05-22-2013, 01:47 PM
  #990
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
A 2nd is not a spare part to me. I wouldn't mind Booth+low end prospect for Tanguay at full salary. The pick is out for me.

I like Tanguay, don't get me wrong. I just think that if they're selling, that I would want Tanguay added to what we have, rather than replacing something. If a subsequent deal could be made to get say, Dubinsky, then I'm onboard.
2014 is supposedly a weak draft. Not too worried about the 2nd. In my roster I added Jagr as well. That either puts two playmakers with Kesler, or we could move Jagr to the Sedin line and have a dominant puck-possession line.

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05-22-2013, 01:56 PM
  #991
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
So you have no issues with this teams under performance in the past couple of seasons, and three straight years of embarrassing offensive showings in the playoffs? That's fine. Personally, I don't find it acceptable and would much rather see the team actively look to improve rather than recycle some third and fourth liners, close our eyes, and hope that somehow magically our core gets lucky and all of a sudden develops a scoring touch in the playoffs.

My issues are more related to coaching, and one or two complimentary pieces. Not core pieces. As I have shown you before, expected point totals are being met by the core players. It's the depth pieces that have failed to deliver.

This is an attribution error on your part.

I think we both know the core remain largely intact. I'm fine with it, you are not. But what would be the sense in constantly complaining about something that has little chance in changing?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
2014 is supposedly a weak draft. Not too worried about the 2nd. In my roster I added Jagr as well. That either puts two playmakers with Kesler, or we could move Jagr to the Sedin line and have a dominant puck-possession line.


Weak/Strong draft doesn't matter. This team needs to retain its picks. I think VAN has had the fewest picks of any team in the last 4-5 years. That needs to change ASAP.

Not a fan of Jagr as a solution.

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05-22-2013, 02:01 PM
  #992
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It's a matter of preference. I like Jagr because we could get him on a 1-year deal and not get locked into a bad contract, he'd be a good compliment to Kesler, and he'd be a perfect mentor for Kassian(similar to Sundin-Kesler)

There are plenty of other UFA options though, like Ryder, Iginla, Clarkson, whoever.

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05-22-2013, 02:11 PM
  #993
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Burmistrov wants out.

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05-22-2013, 02:12 PM
  #994
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
It's a matter of preference. I like Jagr because we could get him on a 1-year deal and not get locked into a bad contract, he'd be a good compliment to Kesler, and he'd be a perfect mentor for Kassian(similar to Sundin-Kesler)

There are plenty of other UFA options though, like Ryder, Iginla, Clarkson, whoever.

I'm not sure any of those guys come to VAN. Maybe Iginla, if he takes a cheap deal.

3.5m in space isn't a lot to work with. 4m if Booth is dealt straight across for Tanguay.

Hard to see big changes, which is why people keeping bringing up Torres, Stalberg, etc... The lower end guys.

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05-22-2013, 02:17 PM
  #995
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
So you have no issues with this teams under performance in the past couple of seasons, and three straight years of embarrassing offensive showings in the playoffs? That's fine. Personally, I don't find it acceptable and would much rather see the team actively look to improve rather than recycle some third and fourth liners, close our eyes, and hope that somehow magically our core gets lucky and all of a sudden develops a scoring touch in the playoffs.
You are putting words in their mouth... maybe the thought is that the personnel isn't the problem.

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05-22-2013, 02:24 PM
  #996
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Weak/Strong draft doesn't matter. This team needs to retain its picks. I think VAN has had the fewest picks of any team in the last 4-5 years. That needs to change ASAP.

Not a fan of Jagr as a solution.
We agree again? Did I hit my head?

To win a Cup the Canucks need to rebuild, and that is done (as it was done getting the Sedins) through the draft - NOT by adding aged players. This is a very deep draft, where a team (that's wise) could rebuild for sure. Many compare this to the Kelser draft year.

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05-22-2013, 02:24 PM
  #997
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
My issues are more related to coaching, and one or two complimentary pieces. Not core pieces. As I have shown you before, expected point totals are being met by the core players. It's the depth pieces that have failed to deliver.

This is an attribution error on your part.

I think we both know the core remain largely intact. I'm fine with it, you are not. But what would be the sense in constantly complaining about something that has little chance in changing?
Funny how throughout the playoffs people were complaining how poorly the Sedins were playing, and now all of a sudden the story changes. I'm not sure what your expected totals are, but I expect more than 0 goals out of Daniel Sedin in his past 11 playoff games. To me that's unacceptable from your highest paid player.

The Sedins and Kesler are our core leaders offensively, and none of them are consistent in the playoffs. We simply need better production and just aren't getting that. You can say you're happy with them all you want, but I'm saying this team will not go anywhere in the playoffs again with these guys as the focal point of our offense.

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05-22-2013, 02:28 PM
  #998
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I'm not sure any of those guys come to VAN. Maybe Iginla, if he takes a cheap deal.

3.5m in space isn't a lot to work with. 4m if Booth is dealt straight across for Tanguay.

Hard to see big changes, which is why people keeping bringing up Torres, Stalberg, etc... The lower end guys.
Well, that's one of the reasons why GMs get paid, to find ways to obtain impact players by convincing them to sign here and finding the cap space to do so. If we get Tanguay at 50% it gives us a decent chunk of cash to spend on a UFA.

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05-22-2013, 02:29 PM
  #999
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
I'm not sure any of those guys come to VAN. Maybe Iginla, if he takes a cheap deal.

3.5m in space isn't a lot to work with. 4m if Booth is dealt straight across for Tanguay.

Hard to see big changes, which is why people keeping bringing up Torres, Stalberg, etc... The lower end guys.
Which is EXACTLY why people advocate buying out Ballard and Booth

This team NEEDS big changes. I don't understand why that is hard to see.

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05-22-2013, 02:40 PM
  #1000
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Quote:
Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Funny how throughout the playoffs people were complaining how poorly the Sedins were playing, and now all of a sudden the story changes. I'm not sure what your expected totals are, but I expect more than 0 goals out of Daniel Sedin in his past 11 playoff games. To me that's unacceptable from your highest paid player.

We went over this. I showed you the expected point ratios and how the Sedins, Kesler and Burrows stacked up. They performed at a similar level this year. It's everyone else that didn't step up.

The story has been the same. It hasn't changed. Perhaps you not wanting to be believe it?


Quote:
The Sedins and Kesler are our core leaders offensively, and none of them are consistent in the playoffs. We simply need better production and just aren't getting that. You can say you're happy with them all you want, but I'm saying this team will not go anywhere in the playoffs again with these guys as the focal point of our offense.

Expected point totals. There is no basis to see them as culprits when they are matching totals, and others are falling short. Attribution error. It's pretty simple actually. Statistically, the depth players are falling short of their expected totals. Yet, you still want to point to the core? Why?

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