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Old
05-21-2013, 10:30 PM
  #26
Teufelsdreck
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Originally Posted by MXD View Post
I stopped reading at Plekanec centering the first line. Pretty much another VERY INSIGHTFUL "let's bash DD cause he actually exists" post in disguise.
How many years do you think DD has left as a Hab? If he plays out his contract (which I doubt), do you think he'll get to sign another? If he does, all the talk about how the Habs will become a strong contender would amount to hot air.

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Old
05-22-2013, 02:06 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by jmdubois585 View Post
I'd love either Gaborik or Vanek. Gaborik is kind of realistic but does he want to come back to a big market.
As long as he is no where near Torts then I think he is okay

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05-22-2013, 02:48 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by MXD View Post
Plekanec is not a first line center, that's the problem.

No problem with him on the second or even the third line, but slotting him at first center for future pretty much screams "we will suck".

Oh, as the postcount... That kind of comments usually follows Bantam-material Sophistry.
Plekanec has been the best center on two divison winners and a ECF team. In his prime years as the Habs most talented centerman the team has only missed the playoffs once.

You could say that him as the best center means the Habs won't be the very elite of the league but to imply that him as the top center means the Habs will in fact "suck" is needless hyperbole. That's the logic of "there are 5 or 6 good teams in the league and everyone else sucks." If you want to think that way its your prerogative, but I think that it needless sorts the league into "top team" and "everyone else" which isn't really productive.

What having Plekanec as the top C actually means is that the team won't have a comparative advantage at that position relative to the rest of the league. In this role he's not the reason for winning but That they will be at best somewhere in the middle 10 at that position and success will depend on having comparative advantages elsewhere in the lineup.

In summary, saying he's not a first line center uses the first line center term in a way that isn't particularly useful. He obviously can play that role in a lineup to a moderate amount of success. Equally obviously, he's not a particularly desirable player to have in that roster spot, being of the average variety rather than the elite. Obviously the team would be better if you upgraded at the position, but that also discribes many points in the lineup. Adding an elite winger or defenseman to the mix would also be effective.

As of right now, the Habs are relatively strong but not dominant at center due to superior depth, but it isn't has great as their advantage of having an elite two-way defenseman as their number one and very strong depth at wing. Beyond Subban the team doesn't really have generally elite skaters relative to their position anywhere in the lineup (They have players elite at particular things, like Markov on the PP, Plekanec on the PK, Pacioretty on ES) so upgrading at any point in the depth chart is desirable. Getting a better top C is one way, but its also something of a pipedream, as a rule of recent history, truly elite Cs don't change teams, the guys that move are no more valuable than Pleks. If he gets surpassed in the depth chart, the overwhelming likelihood its because somebody inside the organization got better than him.

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Old
05-22-2013, 02:53 PM
  #29
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Oh look, another unrelated thread becomes a Plek vs DD thread. How fresh!

More on topic, there will be a lot of those guys that will be re-signed but I agree that even when all is said and done, what's left on the market will likely be a lot more enticing than what is on the market this year.

This is why I hope and expect we only do some minor changes and additions this summer and make sure we have plenty of cap room going into next summer when Gio and Markov's contracts are done.

I'd be interested in Vanek, Hjalmarsson, Girardi and I would kill for Dustin Brown.

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Old
05-22-2013, 02:55 PM
  #30
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I just took a quick glance at the crop of UFAs in 2014-2015 and it will easily rival the 2009 Free Agency which really set the tone for several franchises.

I know everyone is pressing the panic button here but I really hope Bergevin stays pat and adds a few solid vets on one year deals.

If we play our cards right (and trade DD ) we will have well over 30 Million in cap space.

Who is slated to be a UFA?

Malkin
Gaborik
Vanek
Thornton
Marleau
Dats
Bouwmeester
Boyle
Stastny
Phaneuf (ew)
Both Sedins
Kessel
Pominville
Patrice Bergeron
Michalek
Brooks Orpik
Chris Kunitz
Hjalmarsson
Letang
Dave Bolland
Seidenberg
Dustin Brown

And the list goes on.

This is a shocking number of "franchise changers" and players that on these forums go for a kings ransom.

It isnt out of the question that we can get one, perhaps two and maybe even three.

Can you imagine a lineup of

Vanek - Pleks - Patches
Galch - Eller - Gally
Kristo/UFA - Bolland - Bourque
Prust - UFA - White

Subban - Orpik/Phaneuf/Bouwmeester/Hjalmarsson
Tinordi - Beaulieu
UFA/Diaz - Gorges

Price

That is a realistic option if we wait.

Again I know everyone wants to get bigger *hulk smash hulk smash* but I think if we play our cards right we are a cup contender in two years. With Eller, Galch, Gally, Subban, Tinordi, Beaulieu and Price we have one of the strongest cores in the league. Lets wait to overpay in a year where talent is in a surplus imo.
I'd wait until September before even considering any of those guys 2014 UFA's, the window for those guys to sign extensions only opens on July 1st, so maybe half of them have signed extensions by July 15th. I'm sure a lot of them have had informal talks about it already.

The trend the last 4-5 yaers is teams re-signing more and more of their UFA's before free agency.

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Old
05-22-2013, 03:14 PM
  #31
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Stay the Path. Draft Mantha, Morrissey and Faching.


Pacioretty - Plekanec - Gallagher

Bourque - Galchenyuk - Collberg

Hudon - Eller - Clutterbuck

Prust - Boyle - Thornton


Gorges - Subban

Beaulieu - Girardi

Tinordi - xxxxx

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Old
05-22-2013, 04:27 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Guilliam View Post
Oh look, another unrelated thread becomes a Plek vs DD thread. How fresh!

More on topic, there will be a lot of those guys that will be re-signed but I agree that even when all is said and done, what's left on the market will likely be a lot more enticing than what is on the market this year.

This is why I hope and expect we only do some minor changes and additions this summer and make sure we have plenty of cap room going into next summer when Gio and Markov's contracts are done.

I'd be interested in Vanek, Hjalmarsson, Girardi and I would kill for Dustin Brown.
I agree, there is so much quality compared to previous years that even if 1/8th of the talent slips it will still be much better than this year.

I think the Draft well and complement with UFAs is the proper strategy and it leads me to believe that Bergy will wait until next year to strike big in the UFA market.

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Old
05-22-2013, 04:47 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by odishabs View Post
Stay the Path. Draft Mantha, Morrissey and Faching.


Pacioretty - Plekanec - Gallagher

Bourque - Galchenyuk - Collberg

Hudon - Eller - Clutterbuck

Prust - Boyle - Thornton


Gorges - Subban

Beaulieu - Girardi

Tinordi - xxxxx
You really want 37 years old Shawn Thornton on your 4th line?

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Old
05-22-2013, 06:10 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by donghabs98 View Post
As long as he is no where near Torts then I think he is okay
The fact that the Habs are Rangers killers makes it even more realistic. Make it happen Bergie.

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Old
05-22-2013, 06:16 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
Plekanec has been the best center on two divison winners and a ECF team. In his prime years as the Habs most talented centerman the team has only missed the playoffs once.

You could say that him as the best center means the Habs won't be the very elite of the league but to imply that him as the top center means the Habs will in fact "suck" is needless hyperbole. That's the logic of "there are 5 or 6 good teams in the league and everyone else sucks." If you want to think that way its your prerogative, but I think that it needless sorts the league into "top team" and "everyone else" which isn't really productive.

What having Plekanec as the top C actually means is that the team won't have a comparative advantage at that position relative to the rest of the league. In this role he's not the reason for winning but That they will be at best somewhere in the middle 10 at that position and success will depend on having comparative advantages elsewhere in the lineup.

In summary, saying he's not a first line center uses the first line center term in a way that isn't particularly useful. He obviously can play that role in a lineup to a moderate amount of success. Equally obviously, he's not a particularly desirable player to have in that roster spot, being of the average variety rather than the elite. Obviously the team would be better if you upgraded at the position, but that also discribes many points in the lineup. Adding an elite winger or defenseman to the mix would also be effective.

As of right now, the Habs are relatively strong but not dominant at center due to superior depth, but it isn't has great as their advantage of having an elite two-way defenseman as their number one and very strong depth at wing. Beyond Subban the team doesn't really have generally elite skaters relative to their position anywhere in the lineup (They have players elite at particular things, like Markov on the PP, Plekanec on the PK, Pacioretty on ES) so upgrading at any point in the depth chart is desirable. Getting a better top C is one way, but its also something of a pipedream, as a rule of recent history, truly elite Cs don't change teams, the guys that move are no more valuable than Pleks. If he gets surpassed in the depth chart, the overwhelming likelihood its because somebody inside the organization got better than him.
If you think Tomas Plekanec is a bona-fide first line center, there's nothing I can do for you.

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Old
05-22-2013, 06:28 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by MXD View Post
If you think Tomas Plekanec is a bona-fide first line center, there's nothing I can do for you.
Assuming everything you say is 100% fact, of course

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05-22-2013, 06:40 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by MXD View Post
If you think Tomas Plekanec is a bona-fide first line center, there's nothing I can do for you.
He is a number one center, he doesn't have to be an elite one when you have depth. Like it or not he will remain our #1 center for a couple of more years and we will not "suck" having him there.

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Old
05-22-2013, 06:44 PM
  #38
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If you think Tomas Plekanec is a bona-fide first line center, there's nothing I can do for you.
What is your definition of a bona-fide first line center? There's 30 teams in the league, so 30 #1 centers. I think Plekanec is in that top 30 or at the very least has a good case to be, but there will be arguments for guys in that 20-45 range.

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05-22-2013, 06:48 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by NLHabsFan View Post
What is your definition of a bona-fide first line center? There's 30 teams in the league, so 30 #1 centers. I think Plekanec is in that top 30 or at the very least has a good case to be, but there will be arguments for guys in that 20-45 range.
Also take a look at the majority of those top 30 Centers, how many spend as much time as him on the PK? It is hard to score when you are the main PK person the team has. I don't see the Czech Republic complaining about him, just fans who sort by points scored and ignore the other 300 statistics hockey has to offer. Those same fans act like 90+ point Centers grow on trees.

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Old
05-22-2013, 07:02 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
Plekanec has been the best center on two divison winners and a ECF team. In his prime years as the Habs most talented centerman the team has only missed the playoffs once.

You could say that him as the best center means the Habs won't be the very elite of the league but to imply that him as the top center means the Habs will in fact "suck" is needless hyperbole. That's the logic of "there are 5 or 6 good teams in the league and everyone else sucks." If you want to think that way its your prerogative, but I think that it needless sorts the league into "top team" and "everyone else" which isn't really productive.

What having Plekanec as the top C actually means is that the team won't have a comparative advantage at that position relative to the rest of the league. In this role he's not the reason for winning but That they will be at best somewhere in the middle 10 at that position and success will depend on having comparative advantages elsewhere in the lineup.

In summary, saying he's not a first line center uses the first line center term in a way that isn't particularly useful. He obviously can play that role in a lineup to a moderate amount of success. Equally obviously, he's not a particularly desirable player to have in that roster spot, being of the average variety rather than the elite. Obviously the team would be better if you upgraded at the position, but that also discribes many points in the lineup. Adding an elite winger or defenseman to the mix would also be effective.

As of right now, the Habs are relatively strong but not dominant at center due to superior depth, but it isn't has great as their advantage of having an elite two-way defenseman as their number one and very strong depth at wing. Beyond Subban the team doesn't really have generally elite skaters relative to their position anywhere in the lineup (They have players elite at particular things, like Markov on the PP, Plekanec on the PK, Pacioretty on ES) so upgrading at any point in the depth chart is desirable. Getting a better top C is one way, but its also something of a pipedream, as a rule of recent history, truly elite Cs don't change teams, the guys that move are no more valuable than Pleks. If he gets surpassed in the depth chart, the overwhelming likelihood its because somebody inside the organization got better than him.
# 27 will the #1 center at some time next year

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Old
05-22-2013, 07:05 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by MonkeyBusiness View Post
He is a number one center, he doesn't have to be an elite one when you have depth. Like it or not he will remain our #1 center for a couple of more years and we will not "suck" having him there.
he is our #1 by default , he is a #2 on contending teams

but in reality he is not a #1 never was and never will be

its like saying Erat was a legit #1 winger in Nashville , by default he was but he cant be that on any good team

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05-22-2013, 07:13 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by onemorecup View Post
he is our #1 by default , he is a #2 on contending teams

but in reality he is not a #1 never was and never will be

its like saying Erat was a legit #1 winger in Nashville , by default he was but he cant be that on any good team
Patrice Bergeron seems to be working fine with boston. Ideally in 1-2 years I see Plekanec as our #2 behind Galchenyuk. In an ideal world you want an offensive superstar #1 with a good all round specialist #2. The issue for 15+ teams in the league is, offensive superstar #1's do not grow on trees. Hopefully Galchenyuk keeps progressing!

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Old
05-22-2013, 07:36 PM
  #43
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Plekanec doesn't play with our best wingers
effort is always there
He is great on the PK
he play all the hard minute vs. all the other team #1 line and he is is positive so case could be made that he out play does players...
He is a number one center he just not the ideal #1 center every one want a guy that is 6'4" and score over a pts per game... there just ain't many of them in the league... and look at guy like Thorton he had every thing you could want out of a #1 center is team still did win in the playoff and everyone was bashing him.
It not Plekanec fault that we don't have a Malkin, Kopitar or Getzlaf in front of him. He the best center we have, he play is gut out every time he's on the ice and he does what he has to do. So why are we bashing the guy...

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Old
05-22-2013, 09:43 PM
  #44
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One of the reason MB was hired was because of his contact and relationships.
One of these relationship being Pat Brison, they have know each other for 30 year Brisson was MB agent, during the 2004-05 NHL lockout, Bergevin served as coach of a team of NHL stars put together by agents Pat Brisson and J.P. Barry.

Of coarse Malkin will likely re-sign with Pit
but if by any chance he doesn't want to play second fiddle to Crosby.
I have to belive that MB relationship would give him a chance to get is foot in the door and if wasn't for the taxes in Qc it might give us the inside track to sign a these big time UFA players even if basically every team will be offering the maxium $$$.


Signing Malkin would automatically make Mtl a contender for years to come, and make Mtl attractive to other players... it won't happen but we can dream


Last edited by calder candidate: 05-22-2013 at 09:54 PM.
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Old
05-22-2013, 10:23 PM
  #45
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You really want 37 years old Shawn Thornton on your 4th line?
Specially when Jarred Boll is also set to be a UFA next summer

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Old
05-22-2013, 11:30 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Stripper View Post
Pominville - Bergeron - Brown (2015 line)
Galchenyuk - Eller - Gallagher
Stalberg - Plekanec - Bourque
Prust - Talbot (2013) - Bordeleau (2013)

Letang (2015) - Subban
Hjalmarsson (2015) - Beaulieu
Tinordi - Emelin

What's up?
keep dreaming brother!

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Old
05-23-2013, 09:22 AM
  #47
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Originally Posted by onemorecup View Post
he is our #1 by default , he is a #2 on contending teams

but in reality he is not a #1 never was and never will be

its like saying Erat was a legit #1 winger in Nashville , by default he was but he cant be that on any good team
If I'm not mistaken I think we are already a contending team, having an elite first line center isn't a necessity. Especially when you have the kind of depth we have at the center position.


Last edited by MonkeyBusiness: 05-23-2013 at 09:50 AM.
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05-23-2013, 09:40 AM
  #48
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Originally Posted by MXD View Post
Look at OP.

Besides, we did SOOOOOO great since '09, isn't it?

I don't have a problem with Plekanec being in the lineup per se. However...

- He's not a 1st center.
- He doesn't play like a first center.
- He has some attributes that we try to get rid of (he's moderately soft at the very least)
- He was never, ever, ever, ever able to raise his play in the playoffs (I concur that he did pretty well this season, and that he's a very consistent player, which makes the whole "raising his play for the playoffs" a bit more difficult, cause he actually brings it almost every night... at least in the regular season).
- He probably has a better value than Desharnais around the league, cause he's actually a better player.
- Related to the point above; trading Galchenyuk isn't advisable, and trading Eller... well, I'd say yes for a great offer, but that's it.
- He makes 5M$. That pretty much his value, hence a very tradable contract.
- We'll eventually need cap space for very important signings.
- We have a few holes in the lineup. Depth (and by depth, I mean "lineup depth") at center isn't an urging concern, or even a concern at all, with this team. Pass retardedness on the wing (Hudon MIGHT help in that regards) and toughess on the Top-6 and on D are WAY more pressing concerns.


Plekanec might or might not be traded. I don't have a problem with the guy himself, and he's indeed a very good player. But at some point, the idea is to make the team better. When/if Galchenyuk/Eller will have established themselves as solid 1st line C/2nd line C, Plekanec will be ....totally disposable. 5M is too much for a 3rd Center.
how to lose credibility in on 100 word post by MXD

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Old
05-23-2013, 09:51 AM
  #49
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Originally Posted by calder candidate View Post
One of the reason MB was hired was because of his contact and relationships.
One of these relationship being Pat Brison, they have know each other for 30 year Brisson was MB agent, during the 2004-05 NHL lockout, Bergevin served as coach of a team of NHL stars put together by agents Pat Brisson and J.P. Barry.

Of coarse Malkin will likely re-sign with Pit
but if by any chance he doesn't want to play second fiddle to Crosby.
I have to belive that MB relationship would give him a chance to get is foot in the door and if wasn't for the taxes in Qc it might give us the inside track to sign a these big time UFA players even if basically every team will be offering the maxium $$$.


Signing Malkin would automatically make Mtl a contender for years to come, and make Mtl attractive to other players... it won't happen but we can dream
Not so fast. I've said it before. The Habs are getting better, and we will be attractive to UFAs in summer 2014.

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Old
05-23-2013, 09:57 AM
  #50
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Specially when Jarred Boll is also set to be a UFA next summer
and we will already have Bordeleau

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