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Next Captain: Vanek or Ott?

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Old
05-23-2013, 09:58 AM
  #51
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Again, let the players vote on who gets the letters. They will have a better idea of who leads them in the dressing room, far more than we will ever know. Weber, as a hard working guy who sticks up for his teammates and plays a much more traditional role (and style, i.e. no yapping) may very well be that guy as viewed by his teammates.

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05-23-2013, 10:20 AM
  #52
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Again, let the players vote on who gets the letters. They will have a better idea of who leads them in the dressing room, far more than we will ever know. Weber, as a hard working guy who sticks up for his teammates and plays a much more traditional role (and style, i.e. no yapping) may very well be that guy as viewed by his teammates.

How were Pominville and Rivet awarded the position? I feel as though I remember Rivet being voted in but I can't remember.

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05-23-2013, 10:56 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Ruckus007 View Post
How were Pominville and Rivet awarded the position? I feel as though I remember Rivet being voted in but I can't remember.
Poms was given it by Ruff. Rivet was player vote IIRC.

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05-23-2013, 11:37 AM
  #54
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I want Kaleta to be named captain, so that the HF main board implodes.

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05-23-2013, 01:28 PM
  #55
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I want Kaleta to be named captain, so that the HF main board implodes.
Ain't enough windex in the world to clean all the brain 'splosions off of everyone's screens.

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05-23-2013, 01:56 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Crazy Tasty View Post
I want Kaleta to be named captain, so that the HF main board implodes.
C-Kaleta
A-Ott
A-trade for another super-pest (Clutterbuck?)


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Old
05-23-2013, 02:10 PM
  #57
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The funny part about all of this is that there is no "ideal" situation. There's no stand-out leader, no clear-cut choice. We're basically stuck with secondary options (at best) and left-field options (Weber).

I'm not endorsing Ott over ANYONE, I just don't see why Vanek get's the "C" because he scores the most goals.
why is Weber a left field option? He's the 3rd longest (vanek, miller, kaleta?, sekera?) tenured player on the team

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05-23-2013, 02:13 PM
  #58
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why is Weber a left field option? He's the 3rd longest (vanek, miller, kaleta?, sekera?) tenured player on the team
174 career games, one good season, and isn't and probably won't ever be an important member of a good team (i.e., better than the 4/5 that he looks to be).


Without getting into the idea specifically, you can see where people might be skeptical.

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05-23-2013, 02:24 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Ruckus007 View Post
174 career games, one good season, and isn't and probably won't ever be an important member of a good team (i.e., better than the 4/5 that he looks to be).


Without getting into the idea specifically, you can see where people might be skeptical.
1. I think he's been a good defensive defensemen in 2 of the last 3 seasons.
2. I don't think # of games is relevant....plenty of younger, lesser games played Captains have been named
3. I think a rotating Captaincy, or multiple alternates/no captain is an absolutely stupid path to take
4. I think "bottom pairing" defensemen who can play shutdown situations are very important members of a team

He basically will be taking over Regehrs role, has a similar demeanor on the ice, will stand up for his teammates, and has a take no ******** attitude off the ice (see interviews)


His biggest qualification? He's had to fight for his job every single year.

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05-23-2013, 02:42 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
1. I think he's been a good defensive defensemen in 2 of the last 3 seasons.
2. I don't think # of games is relevant....plenty of younger, lesser games played Captains have been named
3. I think a rotating Captaincy, or multiple alternates/no captain is an absolutely stupid path to take
4. I think "bottom pairing" defensemen who can play shutdown situations are very important members of a team

He basically will be taking over Regehrs role, has a similar demeanor on the ice, will stand up for his teammates, and has a take no ******** attitude off the ice (see interviews)


His biggest qualification? He's had to fight for his job every single year.
Just trying to give a dissenting opinion. How you interpret it is up to you.


Personally, I'm somewhat intrigued by the Weber idea but more because I have always felt that letter's are a somewhat massively overrated thing. Also, it coincides with what I've felt has been a misguided strategy by the organization to find/annoint/appoint "leadership" instead of letting it develop organically. But it seems like they're still in a mindset of "we need to find our core" which, I think, is based on a misunderstanding of why this team was successful after the lockout. They should be focusing just on acquiring talent that fits and let the rest shake out afterwards, IMO.

So someone who doesn't really have obvious qualifications is interesting. Frankly, I'm not particularly interested or concerned in the identity of the captain next year or even if there is one.



I won't go into a point-by-point response about your defense of Weber with the exception of the 4th point. Bottom pair defensemen who play shutdown minutes, are, theoretically, fairly easy to come by, IMO (so not particularly valuable in the sense that they can be replaced more easily). As someone who touts player value as much as you do, I'm a bit surprised you disagree.


EDIT: I guess some of this probably belongs in a different thread

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05-23-2013, 02:54 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Ruckus007 View Post
Personally, I'm somewhat intrigued by the Weber idea but more because I have always felt that letter's are a somewhat massively overrated thing. Also, it coincides with what I've felt has been a misguided strategy by the organization to find/annoint/appoint "leadership" instead of letting it develop organically. But it seems like they're still in a mindset of "we need to find our core" which, I think, is based on a misunderstanding of why this team was successful after the lockout. They should be focusing just on acquiring talent that fits and let the rest shake out afterwards, IMO.
I agree. And I think the Weber/Ott "thing" is an example of Leadership developing organically.

I think the "find the core" part goes hand in hand.

1. Weber/Ott organic leadership has developed in the rubble of a failed season/failed leadership group/failed coaching staff
2. They will need a few years to build a "new core"
3. after which time I would expect a new leadership group to have developed from within (organically)

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So someone who doesn't really have obvious qualifications is interesting. Frankly, I'm not particularly interested or concerned in the identity of the captain next year or even if there is one.
I don't know what your definition of "obvious qualifications" is... to me Weber has VERY obvious qualifications.



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I won't go into a point-by-point response about your defense of Weber with the exception of the 4th point. Bottom pair defensemen who play shutdown minutes, are, theoretically, fairly easy to come by, IMO (so not particularly valuable in the sense that they can be replaced more easily). As someone who touts player value as much as you do, I'm a bit surprised you disagree.
a defensive situations defensemen posting a positive GF/GA per 60 differential, a positive +/-, on a bottom feeding team? I disagree that they are easy to find.

We actually had a nearly identical GF per 60 ES with Weber on and off the ice 2.17 ON vs 2.15 OFF (he wasn't the offensive drag that Regehr was).

But our GA was Over a HALF goal better with him on the ice 2.08 ON vs 2.67 OFF.

I just don't think that's "plug and play" performance... I think that's a very good defensive defensemen.

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Originally Posted by Ruckus007 View Post

EDIT: I guess some of this probably belongs in a different thread
yea... my bad... as usual I have gone off on a tangent

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Old
05-23-2013, 03:02 PM
  #62
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Jay McKee had a leadership role on the Sabres for a long time. Now obviously McKee > Weber, but Weber is still young and can still grow into a poor man's McKee. I don't think on-ice role disqualifies Weber at all.

Plus, you just gotta love how he's willing to stand up for his teammates any chance he gets, despite the fact that he will get himself killed if he continues to try and fight people

The biggest question is his role inside the locker room, which of course none of us can know for sure. But I think that this year was a great confidence inducing year for him and I wouldn't be surprised if that translated in a vocal way in the room as well.

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05-23-2013, 03:14 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
I don't know what your definition of "obvious qualifications" is... to me Weber has VERY obvious qualifications.
Sure you do, stereotypical captain qualities. Top line forward or top pair defenseman, looks like he holds players accountable, media presence. Stuff that's not necessarily important, but is usually in these kinds of captaincy arguments.



I stand by my statement on value. Using the ES GF/GA per 60 stats, guys who are in the same realm as Weber (in terms of GF/GA and minutes) include players like Ryan O'Byrne, Davis Drewiske, Ian White, Mark Fraser, Grant Clitsome, Joe Corvo. Many UFAs, probably many cheap ones. Feel free to cherry pick as you like. Considering Weber is a player I had basically written off, I'm thrilled by how last year went and how I hope it will go from there. But I still think defensively sound, bottom pair defensemen are guys that you can pick up cheap in free agency, or have coming through your system every 2-3 years. IMO, I think you overrate him a bit. But just a bit and that's just my opinion.



EDIT to your EDIT: If we keep this on Weber alone, I think we'll probably be safe.

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05-23-2013, 03:48 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Ruckus007 View Post
EDIT to your EDIT: If we keep this on Weber alone, I think we'll probably be safe.
for the record...this is your fault


Quote:
I stand by my statement on value. Using the ES GF/GA per 60 stats, guys who are in the same realm as Weber (in terms of GF/GA and minutes) include players like Ryan O'Byrne, Davis Drewiske, Ian White, Mark Fraser, Grant Clitsome, Joe Corvo. Many UFAs, probably many cheap ones. Feel free to cherry pick as you like. Considering Weber is a player I had basically written off, I'm thrilled by how last year went and how I hope it will go from there. But I still think defensively sound, bottom pair defensemen are guys that you can pick up cheap in free agency, or have coming through your system every 2-3 years. IMO, I think you overrate him a bit. But just a bit and that's just my opinion.
- Weber +0.09 (46% ozone start)
- Obyrne -0.55 (48% ozone start
He's a good comparable... similar style, stay at home, physical, shot blocking defensemen. The type of guy a playoff team wants to acquire at the deadline. You think they are easy to acquire... that may be true... but teams are always looking to acquire them.

Mike Weber is better than Obyrne

- Drewiske (58% ozone start, lowest QOC, not a good comparable)
- White (55% ozone start, 2nd lowest QOC, not a good comparable)
- Fraser (Fraser is a very good player, not a good comparable)
Corvo -0.64 (55% ozone start)

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05-23-2013, 03:54 PM
  #65
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Jame, Mike Weber is not a shutdown defenseman. He will probably never be a shutdown defenseman.

http://www.leftwinglock.com/line-mat...eform=lesent#A

This is from a game against the Lightning, after we traded Regehr. He was hidden from the Stamkos/St. Louis combination as much as possible with Rolston determining the matchups.

In this game against the Islanders, also after the Regehr trade, also at home:

http://www.leftwinglock.com/line-mat...eform=lesent#A

He barely saw Tavares, and was instead matched against the Isles' second and third lines.

Defensive zone starts do not inherently result in a higher quality of competition. Sekera-Ehrhoff was the team's actual shutdown pairing after the deadline.

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05-23-2013, 04:52 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by struckbyaparkedcar View Post
Jame, Mike Weber is not a shutdown defenseman. He will probably never be a shutdown defenseman.

http://www.leftwinglock.com/line-mat...eform=lesent#A

This is from a game against the Lightning, after we traded Regehr. He was hidden from the Stamkos/St. Louis combination as much as possible with Rolston determining the matchups.

In this game against the Islanders, also after the Regehr trade, also at home:

http://www.leftwinglock.com/line-mat...eform=lesent#A

He barely saw Tavares, and was instead matched against the Isles' second and third lines.

Defensive zone starts do not inherently result in a higher quality of competition. Sekera-Ehrhoff was the team's actual shutdown pairing after the deadline.

During those games Weber was paired with Ruhwedel. I remember thinking to myself that Weber's role changed somewhat and that he was getting easier minutes at that point.

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05-23-2013, 05:00 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by struckbyaparkedcar View Post
Jame, Mike Weber is not a shutdown defenseman. He will probably never be a shutdown defenseman.

http://www.leftwinglock.com/line-mat...eform=lesent#A

This is from a game against the Lightning, after we traded Regehr. He was hidden from the Stamkos/St. Louis combination as much as possible with Rolston determining the matchups.

In this game against the Islanders, also after the Regehr trade, also at home:

http://www.leftwinglock.com/line-mat...eform=lesent#A

He barely saw Tavares, and was instead matched against the Isles' second and third lines.

Defensive zone starts do not inherently result in a higher quality of competition. Sekera-Ehrhoff was the team's actual shutdown pairing after the deadline.
Did I call him a shutdown defensemen? If I did, I should be more clear with my use of terms... I think there is a difference between a top pairing shutdown defensemen and a defensive pairing used in defensive situations (which would be to shut down the opponent, but the quality of competition would not be that of a true shutdown top pair)

I must have given the wrong impression of my opinion of Weber... I by no means meant he should be matching up against the elites and playing 20+.

But using him heavily in D zone situations against 2nd lines... is a DIFFERENT type of bottom pairing defensemen... as opposed to the offensive 3rd pairing guy who get PP minutes, and needs to be hidden from defensive situations. There is a tendancy to lump these players into the same label "3rd pairing".... i dislike the use of 2nd and 3rd pairing labels for exactly that reason.

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05-23-2013, 05:23 PM
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I'm going to agree with if Vanek isn't here for the long term don't give him the C. I'd say roll with 3 A's in Ott, Vanek, Ehrhoff/Weber. But if I had to choose either Vanek or Ott, I'd say Otter.

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05-23-2013, 05:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
for the record...this is your fault
Ha. I responded to at least your third post in this thread about giving Weber the captaincy. I'm only guilty of giving you the fight you obviously wanted.



Quote:
- Weber +0.09 (46% ozone start)
- Obyrne -0.55 (48% ozone start
He's a good comparable... similar style, stay at home, physical, shot blocking defensemen. The type of guy a playoff team wants to acquire at the deadline. You think they are easy to acquire... that may be true... but teams are always looking to acquire them.

Mike Weber is better than Obyrne

- Drewiske (58% ozone start, lowest QOC, not a good comparable)
- White (55% ozone start, 2nd lowest QOC, not a good comparable)
- Fraser (Fraser is a very good player, not a good comparable)
Corvo -0.64 (55% ozone start)
Hey, I responded to an argument on your terms (ES GF/GA per 60 minutes). Adding in other factors after I respond is, as we say, moving the goalposts. Though I certainly agree with much of your analysis and...

Quote:
Did I call him a shutdown defensemen? If I did, I should be more clear with my use of terms... I think there is a difference between a top pairing shutdown defensemen and a defensive pairing used in defensive situations (which would be to shut down the opponent, but the quality of competition would not be that of a true shutdown top pair)

I must have given the wrong impression of my opinion of Weber... I by no means meant he should be matching up against the elites and playing 20+.

But using him heavily in D zone situations against 2nd lines... is a DIFFERENT type of bottom pairing defensemen... as opposed to the offensive 3rd pairing guy who get PP minutes, and needs to be hidden from defensive situations. There is a tendancy to lump these players into the same label "3rd pairing".... i dislike the use of 2nd and 3rd pairing labels for exactly that reason.
... I completely agree with this point. In the end, Weber is a certain kind of player (bottom pair, defensive defensemen). I obviously don't think Mike Weber and Joe Corvo are interchangeable in terms of style, but in terms of role, they're at least closer. Certainly there are other types as you rightly mentioned but in the end, the bottom of the defensive depth chart on most teams have players that are generally interchangeable, so, IMO, I don't really consider them to be that important to an organization. To bring bring it back to the original topic; I'm not interested in repeating the Rivet captaincy. Lastly, I cannot let you get away with this...

Quote:
- Fraser (Fraser is a very good player, not a good comparable)
If Fraser's not a good comparable to Weber because Fraser is a very good player, what does that make Weber? You can have that one back, free of charge.




EDIT: I'm also not a huge fan of using usage stats to compare players from different teams. There are too many other variables for my liking.

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05-23-2013, 05:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Ruckus007 View Post

... I completely agree with this point. In the end, Weber is a certain kind of player (bottom pair, defensive defensemen). I obviously don't think Mike Weber and Joe Corvo are interchangeable in terms of style, but in terms of role, they're at least closer. Certainly there are other types as you rightly mentioned but in the end, the bottom of the defensive depth chart on most teams have players that are generally interchangeable, so, IMO, I don't really consider them to be that important to an organization. To bring bring it back to the original topic; I'm not interested in repeating the Rivet captaincy. Lastly, I cannot let you get away with this...
You agree with the difference, but then revert to calling them interchangeable.

Corvo and Weber are not interchangeable. One succeeds on the "bottom pairing" (hate that term too) as a defensive defensemen, d zone starts, PK, physical, bla bla bla... the other succeeds, sort of, on the bottom pair, getting ozone starts, and PP time, non physical, and scoring minutes.... NOT interchangeable



Quote:
If Fraser's not a good comparable to Weber because Fraser is a very good player, what does that make Weber? You can have that one back, free of charge.
NO... Fraser is not a good comparable because he plays a completely different role... see above.

Obyrne WAS a good comparable because he does play the same type of role as Weber.

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05-25-2013, 07:18 PM
  #71
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Ehrhoff or Ott. Only a handful of people on this team are actually proud to be wearing the Sabres uniform.

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05-25-2013, 09:22 PM
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Ehrhoff
The thing that worries me about giving 'Hoff the C is the length of his contract. It's not very often that a player is stripped of the C and stays on the same team that he's contracted with.

Yes, I know it HAS happened (Modano, Vinny, etc) but it's not all that often.

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05-28-2013, 05:39 AM
  #73
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Ehrhoff would be my choice.
And I wouldn't think twice about it either.

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05-28-2013, 03:33 PM
  #74
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Sabres’ Weber embraces leadership opportunity
http://www.buffalonews.com/apps/pbcs...130519254/1104
Quote:
“The first thing if you’re going to be a leader, you have to be capable and consistent every single night,” the Buffalo Sabres’ coach said. “Until you do that, you can’t be a leader. To me, you can’t play one game good, one game bad, one period good, one period bad.

“That’s like Level One. That’s like the basement of leadership. You’ve got to show up every day. You’ve got to be capable. You’ve got to be consistent. Then you build a base where guys are looking to you and you’re setting an example.
Vanek hasn't reached Rolston's basement of leadership.

Ehrhoff, Sekera, and Ott should be the guys wearing letters.

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05-28-2013, 04:55 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by Buffaloed View Post
Sabres’ Weber embraces leadership opportunity
http://www.buffalonews.com/apps/pbcs...130519254/1104


Vanek hasn't reached Rolston's basement of leadership.

Ehrhoff, Sekera, and Ott should be the guys wearing letters.
How does Weber not make your list after that article

Quote:
“Mike Weber is one of those players that made a real big jump this year in terms of what he meant to our hockey team, how he plays the game, just the potential that he has to continue to grow on this team,” Rolston said. “It put a player like Mike in more of a leadership role because of what he did and because of the minutes that he had. He was in the lineup every night blocking shots, sacrificing for his teammates.

“He’s put himself in a situation where he can be one of those guys that are in the room and holding guys accountable.”
Quote:
“Everyone personally and as a team, we need to go in a different direction here and change the culture here,” Weber said. “Guys need to be held accountable. I think a lot of that’s been lost over the last couple of years.
Quote:
Weber, who started the season as a healthy scratch, fought his way into the lineup. He played 42 of the 48 games and was voted “Unsung Hero” by his teammates.

“It’s a huge honor,” he said. “Obviously, something that’s voted by your peers is pretty special. I just try to show up and be consistent and battle for them every night. As an individual, I’m a terrible player. As a team, everyone on this team makes me better and makes me look a lot better than I am.”
Weber for Captain

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