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Old
05-23-2013, 11:39 AM
  #51
dmanfish90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MXD View Post
If you think Tomas Plekanec is a bona-fide first line center, there's nothing I can do for you.
What does that mean "bonafide"?

Is he of Ryan Getzlaf, Sidney Crosby, Pavel Datsyuk quality. Absolutely not. He's a 1b/2A Centre. On teams like us, FLA, COL, NSH, etc. he's a #1. On teams like Boston, Anaheim, Vancouver, etc. he's a #2. So basically for us to be a SC Contender, we would eventually need a #1 C that will outplay him (Galchenyuk in 5-6 years or earlier) and he needs to remain as good as he's been in previous years being a #2 specialist (PK and PP too).

Quote:
Originally Posted by onemorecup View Post
he is our #1 by default , he is a #2 on contending teams

but in reality he is not a #1 never was and never will be

its like saying Erat was a legit #1 winger in Nashville , by default he was but he cant be that on any good team
He had flashes (Plekanec) when he scored 70 pts (good on at least 10 teams as a #1 C) but ultimately no, not really a #1, more #1B/#2A like I said above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by onemorecup View Post
# 27 will the #1 center at some time next year
Really? I don't see it, unless he's got 41 in 41.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MonkeyBusiness View Post
If I'm not mistaken I think we are already a contending team, having an elite first line center isn't a necessity. Especially when you have the kind of depth we have at the center position.
A playoff contending team? Yes. A SC contending team? No.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bsl View Post
Not so fast. I've said it before. The Habs are getting better, and we will be attractive to UFAs in summer 2014.
We are, but again IDK how many good UFAs we attract in 2014. However, with Gionta, Markov, Bouillon, and hopefully Diaz traded for something of value by then, we should have enough cap space after re-signing Markov to a veteran deal (1-2 years at 2.5-4 million per season) to make a small dip into the UFA pool.

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05-23-2013, 11:53 AM
  #52
Markowicz
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Fake line-up 2014-15:

Pacioretty -- Galchenyuk -- Gallagher
Hudon -- P. Bergeron -- Bourque
Collberg/Kristo -- Eller -- Prust
Moen -- White -- Dumont

Subban -- Tinordi
Emelin -- Beaulieu
Gorges -- Hjalmarsson

Price
Budaj

Free agent signings: Bergeron and Hjalmarsson
Players dumped or traded: Desharnais, Plekanec, Markov, Gionta

This lineup probably gives us room for more pickups.

Bergeron is to me the best center available/actually available. He's a winner, excellent both ways, great on faceoffs and an ultimate team player. He's the perfect upgrade on a guy like Plekanec at barely more money i bet. Hjalmarsson is also attainable because of how deep their squad is.

If i can't get Bergeron i'd go after Bolland hard, very similar player.

I don't want to pick any players with baggage of being a loser or any inkling of a me-first attitude. There's a lot of talent in thisw free agency pool, but not necessarily a lot of team guys. Bergevin is building a winner here, and i want guys that will come in (like Prust) and fit in seemlessly.

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05-23-2013, 12:54 PM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MXD View Post
If you think Tomas Plekanec is a bona-fide first line center, there's nothing I can do for you.
Well, he is. Just because he's not an 'elite' first line centre doesn't make him not a first line center at all. Sheesh.

No respect for Pleks.

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05-23-2013, 03:16 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmanfish90 View Post
What does that mean "bonafide"?

Is he of Ryan Getzlaf, Sidney Crosby, Pavel Datsyuk quality. Absolutely not. He's a 1b/2A Centre. On teams like us, FLA, COL, NSH, etc. he's a #1. On teams like Boston, Anaheim, Vancouver, etc. he's a #2. So basically for us to be a SC Contender, we would eventually need a #1 C that will outplay him (Galchenyuk in 5-6 years or earlier) and he needs to remain as good as he's been in previous years being a #2 specialist (PK and PP too).



He had flashes (Plekanec) when he scored 70 pts (good on at least 10 teams as a #1 C) but ultimately no, not really a #1, more #1B/#2A like I said above.



Really? I don't see it, unless he's got 41 in 41.



A playoff contending team? Yes. A SC contending team? No.



We are, but again IDK how many good UFAs we attract in 2014. However, with Gionta, Markov, Bouillon, and hopefully Diaz traded for something of value by then, we should have enough cap space after re-signing Markov to a veteran deal (1-2 years at 2.5-4 million per season) to make a small dip into the UFA pool.
How would anyone know what a Stanley Cup contending team looks like? I'm sure no one expected the Devils to make it last year, anyone is a Stanley Cup contender as soon as you make the playoffs. Especially if Price plays like we know he's capable of.

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05-23-2013, 04:24 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmanfish90 View Post
What does that mean "bonafide"?

Is he of Ryan Getzlaf, Sidney Crosby, Pavel Datsyuk quality. Absolutely not. He's a 1b/2A Centre. On teams like us, FLA, COL, NSH, etc. he's a #1. On teams like Boston, Anaheim, Vancouver, etc. he's a #2. So basically for us to be a SC Contender, we would eventually need a #1 C that will outplay him (Galchenyuk in 5-6 years or earlier) and he needs to remain as good as he's been in previous years being a #2 specialist (PK and PP too).



He had flashes (Plekanec) when he scored 70 pts (good on at least 10 teams as a #1 C) but ultimately no, not really a #1, more #1B/#2A like I said above.



Really? I don't see it, unless he's got 41 in 41.



A playoff contending team? Yes. A SC contending team? No.


If you give Plekanec 2 legit 1st line wingers he'll put up 65-70 points and be up there with all but the top 10-12 centers in the NHL, but he hasn't had much of that type help, plus he's been asked to play a lot in defensive roles.

Boston won the cup with Bergeron and Krejci as their top 2 centers so even without Galchenyuk being at top 10-15 overall NHL center level we could still win with strong depth, however our goaltending would need to be a lot better and we'd have to stay healthier tahn this year.

New Jersey went to the finals with Zajac and Henrique as their top 2 centers.

I think it's a mistake to think there is only one blueprint to playoff success.

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05-23-2013, 04:28 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Markowicz View Post
Fake line-up 2014-15:

Pacioretty -- Galchenyuk -- Gallagher
Hudon -- P. Bergeron -- Bourque
Collberg/Kristo -- Eller -- Prust
Moen -- White -- Dumont

Subban -- Tinordi
Emelin -- Beaulieu
Gorges -- Hjalmarsson

Price
Budaj

Free agent signings: Bergeron and Hjalmarsson
Players dumped or traded: Desharnais, Plekanec, Markov, Gionta

This lineup probably gives us room for more pickups.

Bergeron is to me the best center available/actually available. He's a winner, excellent both ways, great on faceoffs and an ultimate team player. He's the perfect upgrade on a guy like Plekanec at barely more money i bet. Hjalmarsson is also attainable because of how deep their squad is.

If i can't get Bergeron i'd go after Bolland hard, very similar player.

I don't want to pick any players with baggage of being a loser or any inkling of a me-first attitude. There's a lot of talent in thisw free agency pool, but not necessarily a lot of team guys. Bergevin is building a winner here, and i want guys that will come in (like Prust) and fit in seemlessly.
You are making huge assumptions that those guys don't get re-signed which happens with a ton of UFA eligible players the year before.

Your Bergeron-Plekanec thing makes no sense. Plekanec is signed at 5 mil per year, if he moves on from Boston and is healthy, I'm sure he will cost a lot more than the 5 mil cap hit Plekanec has making it dumb to spend more and dump a guy that's already here and arguably as good.

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Old
05-23-2013, 04:42 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MonkeyBusiness View Post
How would anyone know what a Stanley Cup contending team looks like? I'm sure no one expected the Devils to make it last year, anyone is a Stanley Cup contender as soon as you make the playoffs. Especially if Price plays like we know he's capable of.
Los Angeles Kings, San Jose Sharks, Detroit Red Wings, Pittsburgh Penguins, Boston Bruins are some of the recent Cup contenders just going into this year's playoffs.

By that logic, you think that the Habs from 3 years ago were close to being Cup contenders by making it to the ECF? Sure makes sense to me...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monctonscout View Post
If you give Plekanec 2 legit 1st line wingers he'll put up 65-70 points and be up there with all but the top 10-12 centers in the NHL, but he hasn't had much of that type help, plus he's been asked to play a lot in defensive roles.

Boston won the cup with Bergeron and Krejci as their top 2 centers so even without Galchenyuk being at top 10-15 overall NHL center level we could still win with strong depth, however our goaltending would need to be a lot better and we'd have to stay healthier tahn this year.

New Jersey went to the finals with Zajac and Henrique as their top 2 centers.

I think it's a mistake to think there is only one blueprint to playoff success.
You know what, you're actually right. I had totally forgotten that he's played with some pretty okay and not great wingers (Gionta, Cammelleri was the upper echelon and look where he is now, Kovalev, etc.). Had he played with Phil Kessel, probably would put up more points than Bozak

There isn't one blueprint, but the main one is having good depth all across the board and everyone playing well come end of April/May hockey. MTL doesn't have all the pieces of the blueprint yet, but I think I'll cede and agree that with Pleks/Chucky/Eller in a few years, we'll have depth down the middle. What we need to fix is the back end and Carey needs to step up. Oh and get another good scoring winger and maybe one that can hit too (Horton anyone?).

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05-23-2013, 04:43 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stripper View Post
Pominville - Bergeron - Brown (2015 line)
Galchenyuk - Eller - Gallagher
Stalberg - Plekanec - Bourque
Prust - Talbot (2013) - Bordeleau (2013)

Letang (2015) - Subban
Hjalmarsson (2015) - Beaulieu
Tinordi - Emelin

What's up?
Can you say dream team...

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05-23-2013, 04:49 PM
  #59
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Vanek
Bouwmeester
Boyle
Stastny
Pominville
Orpik
Hjalmarsson
Bolland

From op's list, these are the only that seem realistically possible to sign, and I think Vanek/Pominville, Bouwmeester, and Boyle would be great additions.

Vanek/Pominville - Plekanec - Gionta
Pacioretty - Desharnais - Bourque
Galchenyuk - Eller - Gallagher
Moen - White - Boyle
Halpern

Subban - Bouwmeester
Markov - Gorges
Tinordi - Emelin
Bouillon

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05-23-2013, 04:54 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmanfish90 View Post

You know what, you're actually right. I had totally forgotten that he's played with some pretty okay and not great wingers (Gionta, Cammelleri was the upper echelon and look where he is now, Kovalev, etc.). Had he played with Phil Kessel, probably would put up more points than Bozak

There isn't one blueprint, but the main one is having good depth all across the board and everyone playing well come end of April/May hockey. MTL doesn't have all the pieces of the blueprint yet, but I think I'll cede and agree that with Pleks/Chucky/Eller in a few years, we'll have depth down the middle. What we need to fix is the back end and Carey needs to step up. Oh and get another good scoring winger and maybe one that can hit too (Horton anyone?).
If you're only missing 1-2 key pieces THEN you can use UFA or trade for a big piece. I think the "build" portion of this will last until Galchenyuk is at least a top 6 guy without insulated minutes and Beaulieu/Tinordi are playing top 4 roles.

That doesn't mean we can't go on a playoff run the next 2 years or even surprise and win a la Boson/Carolina/LA but the real contending 5-6 year window should be after the next 2 years.

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05-23-2013, 04:59 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by capebretoncanadien View Post
Well, he is. Just because he's not an 'elite' first line centre doesn't make him not a first line center at all. Sheesh.

No respect for Pleks.
I rarely care about the feelings of a man.

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05-23-2013, 05:02 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmanfish90 View Post
Los Angeles Kings, San Jose Sharks, Detroit Red Wings, Pittsburgh Penguins, Boston Bruins are some of the recent Cup contenders just going into this year's playoffs.

By that logic, you think that the Habs from 3 years ago were close to being Cup contenders by making it to the ECF? Sure makes sense to me...


You know what, you're actually right. I had totally forgotten that he's played with some pretty okay and not great wingers (Gionta, Cammelleri was the upper echelon and look where he is now, Kovalev, etc.). Had he played with Phil Kessel, probably would put up more points than Bozak

There isn't one blueprint, but the main one is having good depth all across the board and everyone playing well come end of April/May hockey. MTL doesn't have all the pieces of the blueprint yet, but I think I'll cede and agree that with Pleks/Chucky/Eller in a few years, we'll have depth down the middle. What we need to fix is the back end and Carey needs to step up. Oh and get another good scoring winger and maybe one that can hit too (Horton anyone?).
This is the playoffs, hockey is the most unpredictable sport in the world. As I've said before any team is a Stanley Cup contender if you make the playoffs, we also have alot of depth to make up for an average first line center. Plus Bergeron isn't much better than Plekanec, there is much more to winning a cup than Having an elite first line center. If Price plays like he's capable of we can beat any team.

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05-23-2013, 05:08 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by MonkeyBusiness View Post
Plus Bergeron isn't much better than Plekanec
He isn't much better in EVERY aspect, but he's certainly better in every aspect, thus making him a much better player...

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05-23-2013, 05:25 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by MXD View Post
He isn't much better in EVERY aspect, but he's certainly better in every aspect, thus making him a much better player...
I mostly agree with this. Defensively, Bergeron is better and in terms of faceoffs, Bergeron has it in the bag. However, Plekanec is better in certain skills as well, such a skating (Plekanec is probably our fastest player in terms of acceleration) and scoring ability (imo, but close). So yes, I would say Bergeron is the better of the two for sure, but not a big enough difference to merit trading one for the other...If I gave Bergeron an 8.5/10, I'd give Plekanec an 8.2/10.

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05-23-2013, 05:52 PM
  #65
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We have to be realistic. The 2013 draft will almost assuredly add to the team's depth but the odds are against landing someone like Galchenyuk because more than 20 teams will pick before the Habs. I leave it to Bergevin to make any brilliant moves.

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05-23-2013, 06:12 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
We have to be realistic. The 2013 draft will almost assuredly add to the team's depth but the odds are against landing someone like Galchenyuk because more than 20 teams will pick before the Habs. I leave it to Bergevin to make any brilliant moves.
With 6 picks in the top 3 rounds, that's a lot of chances of adding regular contributors(top 9 forwards, top 5 defense and #1 goalie). if you get 3 of 6 that's pretty good.

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05-23-2013, 06:25 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
We have to be realistic. The 2013 draft will almost assuredly add to the team's depth but the odds are against landing someone like Galchenyuk because more than 20 teams will pick before the Habs. I leave it to Bergevin to make any brilliant moves.
Yea it's unlikely, but we have 3 second round picks and every year you see really good players drafted in the 2nd.

In 2009 Ottawa got both Silfverberg and Lehner in the 2nd round, if we could get 2 guys like that with our 3 picks it would be huge.

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05-23-2013, 06:27 PM
  #68
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Datsyuk play like a magician.

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05-23-2013, 06:27 PM
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Monctonscout View Post
With 6 picks in the top 3 rounds, that's a lot of chances of adding regular contributors(top 9 forwards, top 5 defense and #1 goalie). if you get 3 of 6 that's pretty good.
The Habs will improve; no question. Problem is, so will the top-10 picking teams who may land themselves a star. Our 2nd-round riches give us a better shot at the best depth players, but if we want that 1st or 2nd line forward or big shutdown D, our only course is the UFA route or trade.

Gotta wonder who Bergevin is talking to and which of our players the other GMs are asking about...!

Expect two or three new roster players for next season.

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05-23-2013, 06:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Lshap View Post
The Habs will improve; no question. Problem is, so will the top-10 picking teams who may land themselves a star. Our 2nd-round riches give us a better shot at the best depth players, but if we want that 1st or 2nd line forward or big shutdown D, our only course is the UFA route or trade.

Gotta wonder who Bergevin is talking to and which of our players the other GMs are asking about...!

Expect two or three new roster players for next season.
PK. Subban, was drafted by the Canadiens in the second round, 43rd overall.

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05-23-2013, 07:06 PM
  #71
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PK. Subban, was drafted by the Canadiens in the second round, 43rd overall.
Yeah, yeah, and Gallagher was a 5th round pick, like 3,468 overall. You're right, Timmins has a talent for pulling mid-round rabbits out of his hat, but the odds of drafting someone who's SUPERIOR, relative to other teams' picks, is much lower when you're not picking top-10.

Is it possible to uncover a 2nd-round gem who'll become a top line player? Yes, but I wouldn't hold my breath. Like I said, our two high 2nd-round picks give us a solid shot at superior depth players. And that's fine. I'll be happy if one or two of these guys give us a superior 3rd or 4th line forward, or secondary D. As long as the Habs improve more than the other 29 teams improve...

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05-23-2013, 07:11 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by Lshap View Post
Yeah, yeah, and Gallagher was a 5th round pick, like 3,468 overall. You're right, Timmins has a talent for pulling mid-round rabbits out of his hat, but the odds of drafting someone who's SUPERIOR, relative to other teams' picks, is much lower when you're not picking top-10.

Is it possible to uncover a 2nd-round gem who'll become a top line player? Yes, but I wouldn't hold my breath. Like I said, our two high 2nd-round picks give us a solid shot at superior depth players. And that's fine. I'll be happy if one or two of these guys give us a superior 3rd or 4th line forward, or secondary D. As long as the Habs improve more than the other 29 teams improve...
With great scouting and an abundance of picks, you certainly have a higher chance.

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05-23-2013, 08:36 PM
  #73
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As I said in an earlier post, the Habs should definitely be able to improve their depth but I don't want to hear another tired anecdote about lower round picks who become first line forwards or first pairing Dmen (e.g., Subban or Markov). All of you have seen dozens upon dozens who shuttle between the NHL and the AHL. Sure, having 7 picks in the first 120 improves the odds of finding a gold nugget, but it guarantees nothing. Nor do all first rounders. For example, Louis Leblanc might earn his way back to the NHL, but we already suspect that he'll probably not play on the first line. In conclusion, I see a much improved team in a few years but I'm not convinced it'll be a championship team.

Does that make the case for 'surgical tanking'? That would probably end of prolonging the misery with no assurance of ultimate success. I suppose selective trading and UFA signing should at least be considered. It worked for LA and Boston.


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05-23-2013, 11:41 PM
  #74
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Hard to see most of these guys going to free agency but wow, there are some great players on that list.

Vanek would be a great addition and there's some chance he doesn't re-sign. He brings something the Habs need in their lineup - a proven goal scorer. It would also bring some size the RW.

I can't imagine Girardi going to free agency but if he does that would be a huge pick up.

Same thing with Bergeron. Any of those guys would add a ton of the Habs roster.

Of the less-popular but slightly more-likely candidates I'd say...

Steve Ott
Dave Bolland
Nik Kulemin
Dan Winnik
Brian Boyle
Matt Read

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05-24-2013, 12:40 AM
  #75
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Originally Posted by Coldplay View Post
Coincidence that you snagged 4 Quebecois or French-speaking players in that lineup from UFA?
Right, because I'm so blind about the need of Québecois in this team that I kept Desharnais . Please, by all means, make a team of the Canadiens without a Québecois for all I care. I added size, grit and physique. Let's see what you can come up with?

Edit: I honestly find it hillarious you made that comment because of 4 Québecois. Good thing I didn't add more, right?
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmanfish90 View Post
Can you say dream team...
I know right? It would be amazing..


Last edited by Stripper: 05-24-2013 at 03:40 AM.
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