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Drouin or MacKinnon?

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05-14-2013, 07:24 PM
  #26
Scarecrow Boat
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Originally Posted by SympathyForTheDevils View Post
This gets thrown around a lot, but the only player I can think of in the last 15 years that fits that description is PM Bouchard (and injuries had a lot to do with that). Historically, finesse forwards from the Q have had no problem translating their game to the NHL (at least, not any more than prospects from other leagues). It's the burlier, more physical players (Picard, Bourret, Bernier, Sheppard) that have had these problems.
You kidding? How many QMJHL players who were flashy in junior were able to step right into the NHL right away? That's the real question.

David Perron was good in the NHL but he's injured all the time because he gets roughed up so easily, similar to PM Bouchard.

More guys who couldn't translate: Angelo Esposito, Alex Bouret, Derick Brassard (he's looked good in 15 games with NYR but he's been dominated for 6 years now), Francois Bouchard.

I'm sure there's many more examples but those are the guys who were drafted high enough to have some expectations. There's a ton of other examples who were picked late because they were deemed unable to translate their game to the NHL because of their lack of physical ability. That's why Charles Hudon was drafted so late and it still remains to be seen if his game can translate

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05-15-2013, 12:55 PM
  #27
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I see Mackinnon as a better NHL player.. I have season tickets to the Mooseheads and while Drouin is flashy, it wouldn't work as much as it does in junior. Nathan will use his speed and strength to work his way around defenders, and I think Jo will put on his rear end a few times before he learns that you can't always take the defense 1-on-1.

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05-15-2013, 01:47 PM
  #28
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if i'm a team picking 2nd or 3rd....i'm doing all i can to get both
Like the Canucks did when they picked up the Sedins, only better since Drouin and Mac will show up in the playoffs at some point

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05-15-2013, 01:52 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ClemQ View Post
if i'm a team picking 2nd or 3rd....i'm doing all i can to get both
Like the Canucks did when they picked up the Sedins, only better since Drouin and Mac will show up in the playoffs at some point
Imagine Tampa...

Stamkos - Mackinnon - Drouin



If Stevie Y pulled that off he'd be incredible.


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05-15-2013, 06:15 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Adam Tilander View Post
You kidding? How many QMJHL players who were flashy in junior were able to step right into the NHL right away? That's the real question.

David Perron was good in the NHL but he's injured all the time because he gets roughed up so easily, similar to PM Bouchard.

More guys who couldn't translate: Angelo Esposito, Alex Bouret, Derick Brassard (he's looked good in 15 games with NYR but he's been dominated for 6 years now), Francois Bouchard.

I'm sure there's many more examples but those are the guys who were drafted high enough to have some expectations. There's a ton of other examples who were picked late because they were deemed unable to translate their game to the NHL because of their lack of physical ability. That's why Charles Hudon was drafted so late and it still remains to be seen if his game can translate
Maybe I didn't express my point very well. I didn't mean that every flashy Q forward does well in the NHL. I meant that translating their style of play from juniors to the NHL is rarely the problem.

David Perron doesn't get roughed up too often. He really had just one major injury. And he translated just fine to the pros. Hell he pretty much has the same strengths and weaknesses in the NHL as he had in juniors.

Esposito had 1 big NHL-level asset and it was seriously compromised when he had knee surgery.

Bourret had conditioning and attitude problems.

Brassard didn't have a problem transitioning to the pros initially (did well in the AHL and was an early Calder favorite). Frankly, I think his problems are mostly mental. His personality reminds me a bit of MA Fleury, and I think he might have the same problems with letting his mental makeup and confidence level affect his on-ice performance. Plus the two big shoulder injuries during development probably didn't help.

Bouchard wasn't particularly highly-touted (wasn't he a late 2nd round pick?).

To be fair, there is one type of player that does translate poorly from juniors to the NHL: players with both below-average NHL speed and size, regardless of their skill level (hence your point about Hudon, I imagine). But as you mentioned, those players get drafted late (if at all) because scouts know this and have come to expect it.

Ultimately, my point is that, yes, Drouin could be a disappointment, if:
1)His attitude or work ethic is poor.
2)His on-ice intelligence/decision-making doesn't keep up with his skills.
3)He suffers serious injuries during development.

But it won't be because of an imaginary skill forward barrier where Drouin's skills become immediately obsolete just because he can't deke every player he comes across anymore.

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05-15-2013, 06:39 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ClemQ View Post
if i'm a team picking 2nd or 3rd....i'm doing all i can to get both
Like the Canucks did when they picked up the Sedins, only better since Drouin and Mac will show up in the playoffs at some point
Wont happen. I think drouin will drop to 4th or 5th honestly

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05-15-2013, 07:04 PM
  #32
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I would take Nate over Drouin

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05-15-2013, 09:19 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by KingKadri View Post
Wont happen. I think drouin will drop to 4th or 5th honestly
I hate dealing in absolutes but I think there's literally no way that Tampa passes on him at 3rd.

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05-15-2013, 10:50 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Patmac40 View Post
I hate dealing in absolutes but I think there's literally no way that Tampa passes on him at 3rd.
Only way I see them passing is if they aren't afraid to take Nichushkin. He's so incredibly talented and can play both wings, so he too could be the one to fill in for St. Louis when his day comes.

Other than that, the top-3 seemed to fall perfectly:
Colorado will likely take the guy who started his hockey "career" there.
Florida gets the #1C they need, and a future duo of Huberdeau/MacKinnon
Tampa Bay gets a skilled winger to put beside Stamkos, and an eventual replacement for the aging St. Louis.

I've said it before and i'll say it again... the NHL caught on to us finding out their plan to make the Oilers the next big dynasty, so they took the top-3 players and had the cards fall ever so perfectly. It was rigged, RIGGED I tell you!!!

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05-15-2013, 11:26 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SympathyForTheDevils View Post

Ultimately, my point is that, yes, Drouin could be a disappointment, if:
1)His attitude or work ethic is poor.
2)His on-ice intelligence/decision-making doesn't keep up with his skills.

3)He suffers serious injuries during development.

But it won't be because of an imaginary skill forward barrier where Drouin's skills become immediately obsolete just because he can't deke every player he comes across anymore.
You might as well throw 1 and 2 out the window now. 3, injuries are obviously unpredictable.

In regards to your other comment, I can't agree enough and I have a huge issue with this reputation that Drouin is getting as purely a hilite real machine. I've heard it way to many times, "Oh, well he's not going to be able to deke through everyone like that in the NHL", he's being pigeon held as a player that creates a lot of his offense through these eye popping plays, could not be further from the truth.

His hockey sense, decision making and passing ability are all off the charts for a draft prospect. That is where a large portion of his production comes from. He only had a handful of "hilite" real goals/assists this year. Most of them were just smart hockey plays.

His size gets brought up a lot as well. Foolishness. How does Paval Datsuk's size effect him negatively? Because he's very comparable to Drouin in terms of size.

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05-16-2013, 05:40 AM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Tilander View Post
You kidding? How many QMJHL players who were flashy in junior were able to step right into the NHL right away? That's the real question.

David Perron was good in the NHL but he's injured all the time because he gets roughed up so easily, similar to PM Bouchard.

More guys who couldn't translate: Angelo Esposito, Alex Bouret, Derick Brassard (he's looked good in 15 games with NYR but he's been dominated for 6 years now), Francois Bouchard.

I'm sure there's many more examples but those are the guys who were drafted high enough to have some expectations. There's a ton of other examples who were picked late because they were deemed unable to translate their game to the NHL because of their lack of physical ability. That's why Charles Hudon was drafted so late and it still remains to be seen if his game can translate
is there any great junior player that translated well in columbus

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05-16-2013, 05:51 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Cut and Dry Sports View Post
You might as well throw 1 and 2 out the window now. 3, injuries are obviously unpredictable.

In regards to your other comment, I can't agree enough and I have a huge issue with this reputation that Drouin is getting as purely a hilite real machine. I've heard it way to many times, "Oh, well he's not going to be able to deke through everyone like that in the NHL", he's being pigeon held as a player that creates a lot of his offense through these eye popping plays, could not be further from the truth.

His hockey sense, decision making and passing ability are all off the charts for a draft prospect. That is where a large portion of his production comes from. He only had a handful of "hilite" real goals/assists this year. Most of them were just smart hockey plays.

His size gets brought up a lot as well. Foolishness. How does Paval Datsuk's size effect him negatively? Because he's very comparable to Drouin in terms of size.
I couldnt agree more with everything you said. People are being emotional about it...but the reality is that Drouin was on the top 6 fwd's @ the world juniors because he can adapt and his skill and hockey sense are better than Mackinnons. Mac lovers will hate me for saying that, but, before jumping all over me, let's wait a few years and then re-visit.

Drouin's hockey sense, and ability to adapt to circumstances are off the chart for even NHL players. I think Mackinnons is an unbelievable players, but, i think he will devellop in an acceptable #1 centerman, or a phenomemal #2 center. I dont think his scoring will be off the charts. He does not have the skill of a Stamkos or Nugent hopkins for example. I'm not knocking him, keep in mind were talking about the 2nd or 3rd best 18yr old hockey player in the world. A by-product of being in the spotlight for as long as Mackinnon has been, is that it gives scouts and people in general more time to pick your game apart. You lose sense of what makes the player great, and you start to look for holes in their game.

For my money, i'd be going with Drouin simply for his hockey sense and ability to adapt to all circumstances. I also believe he is much more mature and ready to maket that jump and be a professional every day.

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05-16-2013, 06:16 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Patmac40 View Post
I hate dealing in absolutes but I think there's literally no way that Tampa passes on him at 3rd.
Drouin seems more of a risk than Nichuskin or Barkov. They are both big physical bodies and Barkov has proved he is capable of excelling against grown men. If so many on this forum seem to question if Drouin's ability will transfer, I can only imagine the thought has passed through some scouts and GM's minds as well. It will come down to if Stevie Y wants to take a bit of a risk for a potentially high reward.

That being said I have seen little of Barkov and less of Nichuskin, and I have no idea what sort of team Tampa wants to build so this is all speculation, but I wouldn't be surprised to see Drouin drop a spot or two

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05-16-2013, 07:29 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by KingKadri View Post
Drouin seems more of a risk than Nichuskin
No GM thinks that, and we know why.

I'll give you Barkov. But there's a lot of scouts that think Jo is better, and pretty similar to a guy in the late stages of his career in Tampa already... I don't think it's a aure slam dunk that TB take Drouin, but the fans seem pretty set in their minds...

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05-16-2013, 07:46 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by RJQuack View Post
No GM thinks that, and we know why.

I'll give you Barkov. But there's a lot of scouts that think Jo is better, and pretty similar to a guy in the late stages of his career in Tampa already... I don't think it's a aure slam dunk that TB take Drouin, but the fans seem pretty set in their minds...
Haha the ever present Russian factor. I was more referring to the style of his game being more likely to transfer- less risk of a potential massive bust

Fans don't make the decisions, and being a leafs fan I know all to well that what a fan base wants may not always be best

Also, I am not saying either player is better than Drouin (I can't really judge solely based on the WJ) but that many scouting reports regard Nichuskin and Barkov as being close to safe bets.


Last edited by KingKadri: 05-16-2013 at 07:53 AM.
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05-16-2013, 10:36 AM
  #41
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is there any great junior player that translated well in columbus
Rick Nash, arguably Steve Mason

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05-16-2013, 11:21 AM
  #42
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Originally Posted by KingKadri View Post
Rick Nash, arguably Steve Mason
I'll give you Nash....but you would have lots of arguing to do, to convince me of Mason. He was a better goalie when he got there, then when he left.

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05-23-2013, 04:42 PM
  #43
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If I was an NHL GM and have to decide between Mackinnon and Drouin I'd go with Nathan.

I think Nathan is more ready to play the NHL style than Jonathan is just by their playing style.

In the long run, maybe 5 years from now, there's a huge possibility Drouin will rack up more points than Mackinnon but being a GM or a head scout it's safer to take Nathan. There's way more upside on what can Jonathan do at the next level but on the other end we know what we can expect from the other.

There's also lots of factors in those predictions as some of you pointed out too. Like the team that they'll get drafted to and their linemates. Drouin would be well served on an offensive line along big bodys to give him space on the ice.

Let's see what happens but in the end, these are two great prospects for whoever draft them!


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