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2013 NHL Draft Talk Part 4: Flyers own the 11th overall pick

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Old
05-23-2013, 04:01 PM
  #676
PhilaFlyers
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What would everyone think about taking Mantha? He's a winger!

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05-23-2013, 04:03 PM
  #677
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Mantha at 11th is a horrible idea. Unless you're being sarcastic?

Mantha will probably go anywhere between 17 and 24.

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05-23-2013, 04:04 PM
  #678
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Originally Posted by SolidSnakeUS View Post
Mantha at 11th is a horrible idea. Unless you're being sarcastic?

Mantha will probably go anywhere between 17 and 24.
Not being sarcastic. I've seen him pretty high in some mocks.

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05-23-2013, 04:06 PM
  #679
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Originally Posted by PhilaFlyers View Post
Not being sarcastic. I've seen him pretty high in some mocks.
Domi is a winger as well. If Lindholm falls to us, we take him regardless I would say. So many other players to pick at 11th. Including ones that may fall to us (hopefully): Nurse, Zadorov, Pulock, Morrissey, Domi, Lindholm, Shinkaruk, Rist and Nichuskin. They could all possibly fall to 11th, and they are better players than Mantha.

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05-23-2013, 05:04 PM
  #680
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Originally Posted by SolidSnakeUS View Post
Nurse, Zadorov, Pulock, Morrissey, Domi, Lindholm, Shinkaruk, Rist and Nichuskin. They could all possibly fall to 11th, and they are better players than Mantha.
I'd take Mantha over the bolded players. Also wouldn't mind trading down to get him.

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05-23-2013, 05:16 PM
  #681
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Originally Posted by PhilaFlyers View Post
I'd take Mantha over the bolded players. Also wouldn't mind trading down to get him.
No, no, no... Honestly, I'd probably take Horvat over Mantha as well.

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05-23-2013, 05:31 PM
  #682
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If the Flyers take a forward the chances of it being Mantha is pretty low. Mantha's pretty weak defensively. The Flyers put a premium on forwards who can play both ends of the ice.

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05-23-2013, 05:33 PM
  #683
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Also, why Mantha over Zadorov? Or Pulock or Morrissey?

Doesn't Mantha have problems with consistency?

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05-23-2013, 05:39 PM
  #684
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Originally Posted by SolidSnakeUS View Post
Also, why Mantha over Zadorov? Or Pulock or Morrissey?

Doesn't Mantha have problems with consistency?
Yeah, I would honestly take Horvat and Domi over him at the 11 spot as far as forwards go. Both of them can play the center and wing positions.

Yeah most snipers do though. He's not strong defensively so if the offense isn't going, he's rather useless and disappears in games. He's also the oldest player in the draft. He missed the cut off for last years draft by a day.

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05-23-2013, 06:40 PM
  #685
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Originally Posted by StoneHands View Post
Cousins tore up the OHL this year as an overager in his 4th season. That happens every year in the OHL or Q and half of those guys never even play in the NHL. I'm not saying he won't be an NHL player but nobody would pass on drating a center because they have Nick Cousins coming up. Not to mention, the guy might be trouble and it seems guys that find trouble, find their way out of the league pretty quickly.
Cousins wasn't an overager.

When you draft for need you end up with a 6th defenseman when you could have had a second line forward. You can get away with it in football, but in hockey when guys are so far away from their peak and actually making an impact, you hurt the talent pool of your organization by doing so. Unlike football, by the time these guys are physically ready for the NHL (often 2-3 years) the landscape of a team can change dramatically- just take a look at our roster 2 calender years ago. Taking BPA also gives you trade assets moving forward. Just look at last year. Everyone wanted Maatta , but Maata isn't fetching what Laughton would in a trade package.

I want a defenseman as much as anyone, but history shows you have a better chance finding a #1 defenseman than a first line forward outside of the first round.

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05-23-2013, 06:45 PM
  #686
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FLYguy3911 View Post
Cousins wasn't an overager.

When you draft for need you end up with a 6th defenseman when you could have had a second line forward. You can get away with it in football, but in hockey when guys are so far away from their peak and actually making an impact, you hurt the talent pool of your organization by doing so. Unlike football, by the time these guys are physically ready for the NHL (often 2-3 years) the landscape of a team can change dramatically- just take a look at our roster 2 calender years ago.

I want a defenseman as much as anyone, but history shows you have a better chance finding a #1 defenseman than a first line forward outside of the first round.
That is simply not true. If Risto is available and Lindholm/Monahan is gone, you are taking Risto without the thought that he is a 6th defenseman. But if Lindholm is there and you take Risto over him, he suddenly becomes a 6th defenseman? Come on. It is not a hard and fast rule that drafting for need leads to a wasted pick. REACHING to draft a need might bite you in the ass, but drafting a defenseman who is ranked high on your board over a center that is ranked maybe, one position higher, is not a wasted pick.

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05-23-2013, 07:04 PM
  #687
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
That is simply not true. If Risto is available and Lindholm/Monahan is gone, you are taking Risto without the thought that he is a 6th defenseman. But if Lindholm is there and you take Risto over him, he suddenly becomes a 6th defenseman? Come on. It is not a hard and fast rule that drafting for need leads to a wasted pick. REACHING to draft a need might bite you in the ass, but drafting a defenseman who is ranked high on your board over a center that is ranked maybe, one position higher, is not a wasted pick.
You read that in a literal sense huh? You're relating what I wrote directly to this year's draft and a few select players. I was really going to say when you draft for need you end up with Thomas Hickey, but that draft as a whole wasn't too good.

Anyway, part of setting your board up is to get the best value. Teams rank (or should rank) players in tiers. Now in those tiers is where you rank guys based on positional need. If tier I is #1 defensemen/1st line forwards and tier II is #2 defensemen/2nd line forwards, you would be foolish to take a defenseman in tier II over a forward in tier I, just because you are desperate for a position. I highly doubt teams go through that scenario in the last part of your post on draft day. That work is all done ahead of time and reflected on the final board.


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05-23-2013, 07:26 PM
  #688
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FLYguy3911 View Post
You read that in a literal sense huh? You're relating what I wrote directly to this year's draft and a few select players. I was really going to say when you draft for need you end up with Thomas Hickey, but that draft as a whole wasn't too good.
Yeah I got what you were saying, that's why I called it a "wasted pick" in the second part of my post, which seemed to be what you were indicating.

Quote:
Anyway, part of setting your board up is to get the best value. Teams rank (or should rank) players in tiers. Now in those tiers is where you rank guys based on positional need. If tier I is #1 defensemen/1st line forwards and tier II is #2 defensemen/2nd line forwards, you would be foolish to take a defenseman in tier II over a forward in tier I, just because you are desperate for a position. I highly doubt teams go through that scenario in the last part of your post on draft day. That work is all done ahead of time and reflected on the final board.
I'm not too sure teams rank players that way. I think teams rank them like we see the ISS and such rank them. I could be wrong, but I think they look at where they are picking. Look at who they have at which positions. Look at the prospects available, and make a list much like we see through ISS and such. The tiered system you are talking about would be very difficult to administer IMO. I mean in this draft you would have something like this:

Tier 1
Jones
MacKinnon
Drouin
Barkov

Tier 2
Pretty much every other forward slated to go in the first round
Nurse

There would be very few defensemen chosen who weren't considered a bad pick in your system.

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05-23-2013, 07:30 PM
  #689
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Yeah I got what you were saying, that's why I called it a "wasted pick" in the second part of my post, which seemed to be what you were indicating.



I'm not too sure teams rank players that way. I think teams rank them like we see the ISS and such rank them. I could be wrong, but I think they look at where they are picking. Look at who they have at which positions. Look at the prospects available, and make a list much like we see through ISS and such. The tiered system you are talking about would be very difficult to administer IMO. I mean in this draft you would have something like this:

Tier 1
Jones
MacKinnon
Drouin
Barkov

Tier 2
Pretty much every other forward slated to go in the first round
Nurse

There would be very few defensemen chosen who weren't considered a bad pick in your system.
Yes, because scouts and GM's who will be spending countless hours preparing for this draft are just going to go, "you know what, if we can't have one of the top 4, we'll just take any one of these other 20 guys".

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05-23-2013, 07:34 PM
  #690
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I'm going to laugh a little bit when they take someone no ones been talking about on here.

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05-23-2013, 07:36 PM
  #691
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BringBackStevens View Post
Yes, because scouts and GM's who will be spending countless hours preparing for this draft are just going to go, "you know what, if we can't have one of the top 4, we'll just take any one of these other 20 guys".
You think that the second tier (i.e. second line forwards) would not consist of a large majority of the forwards in the first round?

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05-23-2013, 07:44 PM
  #692
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
You think that the second tier (i.e. second line forwards) would not consist of a large majority of the forwards in the first round?
No, because I suppose there is more than 2 tiers of players. You have to stratify the board based on about 30 criteria.

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05-23-2013, 07:55 PM
  #693
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I'm going to laugh a little bit when they take someone no ones been talking about on here.
Watch it be Valentin Zykov (although, I have to admit, I have a soft spot for Zykov - he's a great Mark Recchi-type of player).

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05-23-2013, 08:04 PM
  #694
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
I'm not too sure teams rank players that way. I think teams rank them like we see the ISS and such rank them. I could be wrong, but I think they look at where they are picking. Look at who they have at which positions. Look at the prospects available, and make a list much like we see through ISS and such. The tiered system you are talking about would be very difficult to administer IMO. I mean in this draft you would have something like this
I know people will say "Button's a fool", but he talks about putting player's in tiers all the time and he has a lot more experience in a draft room than any of us ever will.

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05-23-2013, 08:07 PM
  #695
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Watch it be Valentin Zykov (although, I have to admit, I have a soft spot for Zykov - he's a great Mark Recchi-type of player).


I just want the draft to happen. We're starting to over-analyze things a bit now. I'm pretty confident in Homer and the scouting department to deliver a good player with the 11th pick.

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05-23-2013, 09:11 PM
  #696
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Craig Mactavish said the Oilers priority is selecting a center with their 1st pick. That's good news for the pro-defensemen crowd.

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05-23-2013, 09:14 PM
  #697
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Originally Posted by LegionOfDoom91 View Post
Craig Mactavish said the Oilers priority is selecting a center with their 1st pick. That's good news for the pro-defensemen crowd.
I really really want the big russian. I understand he might not fall to us but if he is there at 11 I would love it. Flyers wouldn't pick him though haha.

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05-23-2013, 09:41 PM
  #698
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I'm going to laugh a little bit when they take someone no ones been talking about on here.
You know it's going to happen too

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05-23-2013, 10:07 PM
  #699
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The more I read about Pulock the more I hope the Flyers go in a different direction with the 11th.

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05-23-2013, 10:22 PM
  #700
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The more I read about Pulock the more I hope the Flyers go in a different direction with the 11th.
The below average skating and defensive ability is scary.

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