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Winnipeg Jets Prospect Thread 2012-13 (Part IV)

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Old
05-23-2013, 01:52 PM
  #701
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I think they'll resign Clitsome for good money on a one year deal. Maybe like 2.5 or even 3m.

Then role with

Enstrom - Bogosian
Clitsome - Byfuglien
Stuart - Trouba.

The time to trade Buff is not now imo. See how the rookies play and reevaluate at the deadline / 2014 draft

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05-23-2013, 02:45 PM
  #702
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Originally Posted by Flying High View Post
I think they'll resign Clitsome for good money on a one year deal. Maybe like 2.5 or even 3m.

Then role with

Enstrom - Bogosian
Clitsome - Byfuglien
Stuart - Trouba.

The time to trade Buff is not now imo. See how the rookies play and reevaluate at the deadline / 2014 draft
That's how I would like to see it as well right out of the gate, but I think Noel is too in love with Enstrom and Buff together.

But if you put Enstrom and Bogo together you could play them 25 mins a game, Clitsome and Buff for 20 mins, and Stuart and Trouba for 15 mins. Not counting for zone starts and PP / PK time, I like that overall distribution of minutes.

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05-23-2013, 03:38 PM
  #703
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I've got to ask: Is it fare game to point out all of ps241's homophonic errors? He makes allot of them!

PS,ps, I was not making a comment on your sexual orientation.
If I type it is "fair" or should I say fare game so flame () away scelaton

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05-23-2013, 04:47 PM
  #704
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Originally Posted by truck View Post
The D group will without a doubt get worse without Big Buff.

I wouldn't wanna bank on Trouba, Postma or Redmond handling tough minutes as well as he can.

I think the most likely scenario is that the Jets keep em all and one of Bogo, Trouba, Redmond and Postma is worked in on his off hand.

Trades are a possibility, but they are a lot easier to make in arm chair GM fantasy land than they are in real life.
Depending on what the three RFA's sign for, improvements to the top 6 forwards would likely come via trade.

May not be Buff, for now, but i would think trades are made this off-season rather than thru FA signings. May not be blockbusters, though.

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05-23-2013, 11:29 PM
  #705
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Another thought about Trouba, he definitely seems to play and win medals when representing his country on US hockey teams. And tends to play a role in their success.

That winning mentality can only help a Jets team trying to build their winning attitude.

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05-24-2013, 06:20 AM
  #706
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Originally Posted by Flying High View Post
I think they'll resign Clitsome for good money on a one year deal. Maybe like 2.5 or even 3m.

Then role with

Enstrom - Bogosian
Clitsome - Byfuglien
Stuart - Trouba.

The time to trade Buff is not now imo. See how the rookies play and reevaluate at the deadline / 2014 draft
I agree they should re-sign Clitsome, but hopefully for less than 3 M per. I would also like to see Toby and Bogo as our top pairing. Given some time together I think you will see something special.

Your last point on the timing of a Buff trade is interesting. In a perfect world it makes sense, but all your potential trading partners have their own preferred timelines. So what do you do if you get an offer for Buff at this year's draft that includes all the elements you are looking for? Do you dither or pull the trigger? I'm hoping Chevy is willing to pull the trigger a couple times this off-season. IMO it is time to start making moves to move this team forward.

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05-24-2013, 06:46 AM
  #707
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Thank god we took a good look at Artus Kulda's abilities to be a 20 minute 2nd pairing LHD so we know what our options look like.


Wait.....

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05-24-2013, 06:58 AM
  #708
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Originally Posted by GermanJetsFan View Post
Thank god we took a good look at Artus Kulda's abilities to be a 20 minute 2nd pairing LHD so we know what our options look like.


Wait.....


At least the U.S. National team did the organization a huge favour selecting and then playing Trouba in a variety of situations. You have to think Chevy has more confidence that Trouba is ready to make the next step.

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05-25-2013, 10:31 AM
  #709
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So a little off topic, but when does the prospect list scrolling across the top of the page get updated? To say ours is outdated would be an understatement.

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05-25-2013, 11:12 AM
  #710
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So a little off topic, but when does the prospect list scrolling across the top of the page get updated? To say ours is outdated would be an understatement.
If I remember correctly it's once a year and normally sometime after draft but can't remember how close to the next season...

I closed mine and its gone forever. I wouldn't even mind having it up again but don't know how.

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05-26-2013, 06:26 PM
  #711
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If I remember correctly it's once a year and normally sometime after draft but can't remember how close to the next season...

I closed mine and its gone forever. I wouldn't even mind having it up again but don't know how.
I don't have one? I would like to have this too..

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05-26-2013, 11:16 PM
  #712
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I don't have one? I would like to have this too..
It's under dismissed notifications in your profile. Last link on the left hand side.

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05-26-2013, 11:24 PM
  #713
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the only way i see buff moved is in a deadline deal

we may get a great offer around the draft, but i kind of doubt it. teams right now are too focussed on re-signing their own players, and figuring out their salary structure with the cap coming down. i doubt many teams will be looking to add an expensive, one dimensional defenceman at this point in time

but as we saw this year, at the deadline anything is possible. a huge offensive threat/pp guy would look great on a contending team. thats where we might get lucky and have someone overpay us with a package of picks/prospects

i dont really see us getting a top tier player back in any package, unless that player also comes with a big cap hit to level it out

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05-27-2013, 06:26 AM
  #714
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the only way i see buff moved is in a deadline deal

we may get a great offer around the draft, but i kind of doubt it. teams right now are too focussed on re-signing their own players, and figuring out their salary structure with the cap coming down. i doubt many teams will be looking to add an expensive, one dimensional defenceman at this point in time

but as we saw this year, at the deadline anything is possible. a huge offensive threat/pp guy would look great on a contending team. thats where we might get lucky and have someone overpay us with a package of picks/prospects

i dont really see us getting a top tier player back in any package, unless that player also comes with a big cap hit to level it out
See I would argue the opposite, that the draft is the opportune time to trade a guy like Buff. If you are going to add long term salary (Buff and whoever we get back), rather than picking up a rental you are better off doing it in the off-season while you are making other moves to build your team for the coming season.

At the draft its not like Chevy will be springing a trade idea on someone, it would have likely be something that has been talked about off and on for months.

Besides I can't think of a more difficult player to introduce to your team at the deadline than Buff. He has a ton a talent, but I would imagine a lot of GM's would be reluctant to add his style of play to a team that plays a tight system with attention of detail on defense a month before the playoffs.

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05-27-2013, 08:55 AM
  #715
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this is my picks then and it is still up to now!
is byfuglien+burmistrov good enough to get colorados 1st and 31st picks this year.
or i am insane?.

3 years down the line:
kane mckinnon wheeler
ladd schiefele little
Telegin Gauthier Lowry
cormier sutter kosmachuk

enstrom bogosian
mirco muller trouba
redmond postma
yuen

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetsfareast
1. Avalanche: Mckinnon
2. Panthers: Drouin
3. Lightning: Jones
4. Predators: Barkov
5. Hurricanes: Lindholm
6. Flames: Monahan
7. Oilers: Ristolainen
8. Sabres: Nichuskin
9. Devils: Domi
10. Stars: Nurse

then

Shinkaruk, horvat, Polock, Gauthier, Wenberg, zadarov


just may thoughts. Mckinnon and Droiun can become an impact players on their team as an 18 years old. Jones can also play next year but won't be an impact defenseman, until 4 years down. by that time the other two can already amaze 200 points or more in the nHL. Right now Jones is man among most boys in Junior, but in the NHL half of the league hits and are as strong. Jones will be a good player, but most impact defenseman that are right now in the Nhl are not 1st overall picks. what would you have 6-7 impact years of Mckinnon or 3-4 impact years of Jones. Aves have depth at center they can trade one for a stablish top pairing two way defenseman or top 4 dman that can score points right away because that is what they lack.

i am not sure but can someone give me a thought if Seth Jones is soft? seen him A few times, not as tough as i think. As an elite defenseman you are either( for me) blow your mind offensive force, ie Karlsson or Big two way shut down nasty defenseman that can put points on the board, Chara, Weber.
this is what Seth Jones is projected to be right? an ELITE D, i think he will be a good number 1 D though as his ceiling. But droiun and specially mckinnon can be an Elite offensive player in the NHL. And it seems Mckinnon brings other things to the table also.

i choose BPA and it is Mckinnon, Droiun then Jones, just my own personal ipinion.

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05-27-2013, 09:33 AM
  #716
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Originally Posted by Jetsfareast View Post
this is my picks then and it is still up to now!
is byfuglien+burmistrov good enough to get colorados 1st and 31st picks this year.
or i am insane?.
Not likely.

As far as i know 1st overall hasn't been traded without a top 5 pick being involved in the last 20 years, so regardless if you think the values there-it hasn't happened in 20+ years, so at this points it's excessive fantasy.

It's just not really the sort of trade that happens.

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05-27-2013, 09:40 AM
  #717
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Originally Posted by Grind View Post
Not likely.

As far as i know 1st overall hasn't been traded without a top 5 pick being involved in the last 20 years, so regardless if you think the values there-it hasn't happened in 20+ years, so at this points it's excessive fantasy.

It's just not really the sort of trade that happens.
ok would the avalanche give duschene + their 2nd pick 2013 for buff and burmi?

kane duschene wheeler
ladd schiefele little

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05-27-2013, 10:16 AM
  #718
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To move up into the top 3 this year would cost something you don't want to give up.

I see 4 attractive young players on the Jets: Kane, Bogo, Trouba and potentially Scheifele. Teams would want 1 (or even more) of those players in a deal for a top pick.

Question likely is - would you trade Bogo or Kane for that pick? And would Col or Florida want said player instead of Jones or MacKinnon. Once you get past #4 or later, then something might open up with #13 and a player like Buff and/or Burmi, imo.

Canes: Buff, Burmi, #13

Might get...

Jets: Skinner, #5

That might not do it either. Jets may need to add. Moving from #13 to #5 would take significant value. Ruutu would likely get it done (maybe), though not sure that works for Jets.

Canes:
Tlusty/E Staal/Semin
Skinner or Ruutu (whoever isn't moved)/J Staal/LaRose
Wallace/Burmi/Dwyer

Pit/Buff
Gleason/Faulk

Jets:

LLW
Kane/Scheifele/Skinner or Ruutu
Tanger/Olli/?

If Scheifele isn't ready, Skinner or Ruutu move to center on 2nd line with Kane.

With #5, Jets draft Lindholm or Monahan, whovever is ranked BPA by them.

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05-27-2013, 10:41 AM
  #719
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Originally Posted by KingBogo View Post
See I would argue the opposite, that the draft is the opportune time to trade a guy like Buff. If you are going to add long term salary (Buff and whoever we get back), rather than picking up a rental you are better off doing it in the off-season while you are making other moves to build your team for the coming season.

At the draft its not like Chevy will be springing a trade idea on someone, it would have likely be something that has been talked about off and on for months.

Besides I can't think of a more difficult player to introduce to your team at the deadline than Buff. He has a ton a talent, but I would imagine a lot of GM's would be reluctant to add his style of play to a team that plays a tight system with attention of detail on defense a month before the playoffs.
I agree, KingBogo.

If the Jets look at a Buff deal as a way of getting more depth - thru young NHL players and draft pick(s) - the draft would be the opportune time to make a deal as you have a decent idea of who you might get with that pick.

Question is, is there depth on D to move Buff? Jets may feel, Trouba has shown enough that he has to play. He may be raw and make mistakes, but we can live with that for this year as he gains NHL experience.

They would have to feel the group of Bogo, Trouba, Postma and Redmond will be ok. Bogo is key in that scenario, too. To have him signed long-term, is critical, if they plan to move Buff.

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05-27-2013, 10:51 AM
  #720
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I agree, KingBogo.

If the Jets look at a Buff deal as a way of getting more depth - thru young NHL players and draft pick(s) - the draft would be the opportune time to make a deal as you have a decent idea of who you might get with that pick.

Question is, is there depth on D to move Buff? Jets may feel, Trouba has shown enough that he has to play. He may be raw and make mistakes, but we can live with that for this year as he gains NHL experience.

They would have to feel the group of Bogo, Trouba, Postma and Redmond will be ok. Bogo is key in that scenario, too. To have him signed long-term, is critical, if they plan to move Buff.
This is what i disagree with. As far as i'm concerned, if this team doesn't make the playoffs this year, you have to blow it up. Your timeline gets screwed and for the team to be competitive with the established core you'd essentially have make the playoffs the next year, and be contending the year after (which doesn't really happen with any sort of regularity).

trading Buff in the offseason (while i wouldn't mind seeing him be moved) is leaving a LOT up to chance with your D core. Your trusting the #3 and #4 D spots to Clitsome and a Rookie(postma/trouba/redmond). That doesn't sound like progress to me.

while i can see moving buff in the offseason as it's easier to manage salary nd accomodate him, and while i'm not totally against it, it does raise some major question marks for me as far as realistic expectations next year, a year that I see as the most critical for this team (we were a bubble team last year, the next step is playoffs, we have to make it to fit the timeline of the LLW core, season ticket renewls, etc)

jets management would have to be extremely confident in their young D to move buff before the season.

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05-27-2013, 11:17 AM
  #721
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This is what i disagree with. As far as i'm concerned, if this team doesn't make the playoffs this year, you have to blow it up. Your timeline gets screwed and for the team to be competitive with the established core you'd essentially have make the playoffs the next year, and be contending the year after (which doesn't really happen with any sort of regularity).

trading Buff in the offseason (while i wouldn't mind seeing him be moved) is leaving a LOT up to chance with your D core. Your trusting the #3 and #4 D spots to Clitsome and a Rookie(postma/trouba/redmond). That doesn't sound like progress to me.

while i can see moving buff in the offseason as it's easier to manage salary nd accomodate him, and while i'm not totally against it, it does raise some major question marks for me as far as realistic expectations next year, a year that I see as the most critical for this team (we were a bubble team last year, the next step is playoffs, we have to make it to fit the timeline of the LLW core, season ticket renewls, etc)

jets management would have to be extremely confident in their young D to move buff before the season.
I hear ya, Grind. And agree.

They would have to believe that they won't lose that much in trading Buff - with Bogo's continued progression and Trouba's development. With the return being so great for now and the future, it makes sense in both the short-term and future.

Lots to consider for sure. Buff is 28 and may have injury trouble moving forward carrying as much weight as he does. If TNSE has asked Buff to work on his conditioning and he simply doesn't, then they may look at these moves as a way of putting together a team with the right level of commitment - a message of sorts, that management expects dedication, hard work and focus from all its players. Hard to say what goes on behind closed doors.

As fans we want success now. For TNSE, they may see it as short-term pain for long-term gain. And the future far exceeds what they have currently.

Lots to consider.

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05-27-2013, 11:47 AM
  #722
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I hear ya, Grind. And agree.

They would have to believe that they won't lose that much in trading Buff - with Bogo's continued progression and Trouba's development. With the return being so great for now and the future, it makes sense in both the short-term and future.

Lots to consider for sure. Buff is 28 and may have injury trouble moving forward carrying as much weight as he does. If TNSE has asked Buff to work on his conditioning and he simply doesn't, then they may look at these moves as a way of putting together a team with the right level of commitment - a message of sorts, that management expects dedication, hard work and focus from all its players. Hard to say what goes on behind closed doors.

As fans we want success now. For TNSE, they may see it as short-term pain for long-term gain. And the future far exceeds what they have currently.

Lots to consider.
that's a big assumption to make as well though, that the future gain will be that big.

My point is, the short term pain may be far more damaging then we at first think.

It's not just the loss of Byfuglien. It's essentially the loss of Byfuglien and the loss of the optimum use of Ladd, Little, wheeler, and Enstrom. As in trying to be the best team possible while they are playing their best hockey, ie "the window".

We move Buff and don't improve linearly next year or excessively in two years, we have to rejig the window so that we're now not trying to compete with these 4 in their prime, were trying to compete when Kane, Bogo, Schiefele are in their prime.

That's my only concern when looking at the pieces in big picture.

IMO, unless your 100% sold on one of trouba-postma-redmond-clitsome to be an above average 2nd pairing dman and one other to be an average/slightly below average 2nd pairing d man, you can't move Buff for a return that is primarily "long term assets".

In short, i don't want to see Buf traded for pieces that move this team significantly backwards, even for just the next year. A downgrade at D + futures or a young significant upgrade at forward would be ideal.

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05-27-2013, 11:57 AM
  #723
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that's a big assumption to make as well though, that the future gain will be that big.

My point is, the short term pain may be far more damaging then we at first think.

It's not just the loss of Byfuglien. It's essentially the loss of Byfuglien and the loss of the optimum use of Ladd, Little, wheeler, and Enstrom. As in trying to be the best team possible while they are playing their best hockey, ie "the window".

We move Buff and don't improve linearly next year or excessively in two years, we have to rejig the window so that we're now not trying to compete with these 4 in their prime, were trying to compete when Kane, Bogo, Schiefele are in their prime.

That's my only concern when looking at the pieces in big picture.

IMO, unless your 100% sold on one of trouba-postma-redmond-clitsome to be an above average 2nd pairing dman and one other to be an average/slightly below average 2nd pairing d man, you can't move Buff for a return that is primarily "long term assets".

In short, i don't want to see Buf traded for pieces that move this team significantly backwards, even for just the next year. A downgrade at D + futures or a young significant upgrade at forward would be ideal.
I guess where I'm coming from is, I don't mind a Buff deal for futures and quality young NHL talent (like the skinner deal I've floated, for illustration purposes), in gaining value from a Buff move.

Now that wouldn't be the only move the Jets should make, imo. I'm just looking at maximizing a Buff return. If Burmi is a part of it, fine, otherwise he's a chip to be played as well. That move could include a veteran LH dman, for instance. Maybe you grab a 'released' or bought out player in FA.

Roster moves are always fluent. Get the most from a Buff deal, fill in pieces elsewhere.

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05-27-2013, 01:06 PM
  #724
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For what it's worth, I think the organization should definitely keep Buff. He is a bit of an enigma with his size, strength, and skill with the puck. As a rushing defenceman with his skill he forces the other team to adjust their system. I just think he is too valuable to be considered for a trade. Not untouchable, just he has a lot of value that pretty well any team would want.

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05-27-2013, 02:03 PM
  #725
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For what it's worth, I think the organization should definitely keep Buff. He is a bit of an enigma with his size, strength, and skill with the puck. As a rushing defenceman with his skill he forces the other team to adjust their system. I just think he is too valuable to be considered for a trade. Not untouchable, just he has a lot of value that pretty well any team would want.
Ya, though I'm playing Devil's advocate with a Buff trade, its likely a year away. I think, like Grind's been saying, its a pretty big risk to move him now, without really knowing what you have with the young RH dmen (Trouba, Postma and Redmond).

A Buff trade could kick start the collection of talent at forward, but that's at a significant risk at D.

My opinion is, Chevy and Noel like more traditional dmen that play well in their zone, first and then add to the offense when they can or on pp - guys like Bogo and Trouba. They also have Enstrom that adds that puck moving, offensive upside - so once Trouba begins to play like a physical, top 4 dman, they could be ok. I'm thinking that is a year away. Until then, tough to move him.

But, if he's not moved, I'm not expecting significant change to the Jets roster. By significant I mean a potential 30+ g/60+ pt forward being added. I'd even take two 20+ g/50+ forwards, but can't see 2 guys like that (costing somewhere around $4 mill each), and a #4 LH dman (around $3 mill) fitting within the cap - if we sign our big 3 RFA's, and keep Buff and Olli.
So keeping Buff is "more of the same", imo, for 1 more year.

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