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2013 NHL Draft Talk Part 4: Flyers own the 11th overall pick

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Old
05-24-2013, 11:38 AM
  #726
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Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
I wouldn't and I'll explain. The Flyers are four deep at center. If Lindholm is available when they select, I'd certainly hope that the Flyers would shop the pick to move back in the draft and pick up a few more assets along the way. Lindholm simply isn't a need. Yes, I get the BPA approach, but this is the year to not go with BPA and to start looking at the needs of the franchise. If they move back five or six spots, get some additional draft picks/prospects/players and can still draft the player they want, then I'd say do it.
There is no way Lindholm will be there at 11. But if he is we have to pick him and put him on the wing on the 1st or 2nd line. This kid is that good and he has that never say die attitude to go along with his talent. The only way I move him is if we could make a deal with the Bluejackets and if the player the Flyers want is still on the board when the Jackets pick 1st then pull the trigger on that deal. I believe the Jackets GM would love to have Lindholm. But the cost would have to be their 1st pick and one of their other 1st round picks. That is the only way I move him. We let Forsberg go once before and by all reports this young man reminds the scouts of Peter

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05-24-2013, 11:40 AM
  #727
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Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
My issue with Pulock is that he's a recent convert to defense (having switched to the defense as a 15 year old)
Actually, that's pretty concerning. Familiarity with a position is very important, maybe the most important trait. You want a player so attuned with his position that at no point is he thinking conceptually about the play. Reaction should be need instinct level in an ideal player world. The point of practice is automation.

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05-24-2013, 11:52 AM
  #728
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After reading the article it sound like they'll take a defenseman unless a forward drops.

Also intrigued by Morrissey after your write-up.
I wish that this past year's U18 was available for download somewhere on the Internet. Josh Morrissey had a hell of a tournament and was easily the best defender of the tournament. I know that this tournament is a tournament that is viewed very highly by Flyers scouts and that was the tournament that really cemented Scott Laughton in the Flyers scouts' eyes.

There was only one player who might have had a better tournament than Morrissey and that was Connor McDavid and even then, it's debatable amongst scouts. The more I watch Morrissey and the more and more I see a Drew Doughty clone, but with a better shot.

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05-24-2013, 11:59 AM
  #729
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What are you reading? When is it from? Who is it from? And have you actually seen the player play or are you basing your entire evaluation off some blogger on the internet?

Most of the scouting sites even call Pulock a two-way player and don't suggest his skating is a liability. I feel like this stuff has just gotten way out of proportion with people repeating one person's perspective without ever having seen the player play.
One I know offhand. Pronman (who ive talked to and respect due to him knowing tons of scouts).

http://www.hockeyprospectus.com/arti...articleid=1523

No i havent seen him play but talked to people who did. Obviously you disagree with the scouts who say its a problem.

Also good read here:

http://www.inlouwetrust.com/2013/5/2...ospect-profile

I can find more if you want. I think eklund did a piece also.


Last edited by sa cyred: 05-24-2013 at 12:05 PM.
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05-24-2013, 12:01 PM
  #730
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Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
Now, that's just my take on things. However, as much as this team needs a defenseman, my gut tells me that after reading Anthony San Filippo's article (http://flyers.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=671200), the team is probably going to draft yet another forward with the first choice.
It was an interesting read. It almost looks addressed to us.

One point of contention, ASF says:

"It was hard to argue the Flyers drafting James van Riemsdyk at No. 2 overall in 2007. There were decent defenseman drafted in some of the slots behind him – Karl Alzner (Washington), Ryan McDonagh (New York Rangers), Kevin Shattenkirk (Colorado), but none worthy of the No. 2 pick. Van Riemsdyk was traded last year for Schenn – who continues to grow as a top pair defenseman for the Flyers. There was a mistake in round two, as the Flyers chose defenseman Kevin Marshall two picks ahead of Montreal selecting P.K. Subban, but again, not every team is perfect, and frankly, every team had a shot at Subban in the first round and passed."

None worthy of the No. 2 pick? Shattenkirk was (looking backwards). Perhaps he means: "at the time, given the landscape and scouting reports." -- and missing on Kevin Marshall was a pretty big mistake. Every team makes mistakes, I know, but given what Marshall was supposed to be versus what he became was pretty horrible. The Sbisa pick wasn't the greatest, either. It got us Pronger, sure, and invariably if Pronger was healthy I doubt the defense would be such a major issue to begin with.

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05-24-2013, 12:02 PM
  #731
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Originally Posted by SchennSational1022 View Post
Nurse is so overrated. I dont want another Coburn, soembody with no hockey IQ and even less offensive ability.
Huh? Nurse had a massive leap in offensive production, going from just 10 pts in '11-'12, to 41 pts this season. He put up 12g and 29a for .60 pts per game (.66 in the playoffs). I see him producing 50+ pts or so next season. I don't see how that translates to less offensive ability than Coburn. To me, I think of Nurse as a more aggressive and physical Coburn with a better shot and more offensive upside.

I don't know where the low hockey IQ thing came from...can you prorivde a link or quote source for that?

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05-24-2013, 12:05 PM
  #732
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Actually, that's pretty concerning. Familiarity with a position is very important, maybe the most important trait. You want a player so attuned with his position that at no point is he thinking conceptually about the play. Reaction should be need instinct level in an ideal player world. The point of practice is automation.
Counter argument could be that he has more room to grow as a defenseman and if he does it will make him that much better

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05-24-2013, 12:08 PM
  #733
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Counter argument could be that he has more room to grow as a defenseman and if he does it will make him that much better
Counter counter argument is that even if he has that much more room, he's still going to be behind everyone else in terms of development. When he reaches his plateau, every other defender will be miles ahead of him.

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05-24-2013, 12:10 PM
  #734
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Originally Posted by fauxflex View Post
Huh? Nurse had a massive leap in offensive production, going from just 10 pts in '11-'12, to 41 pts this season. He put up 12g and 29a for .60 pts per game (.66 in the playoffs). I see him producing 50+ pts or so next season. I don't see how that translates to less offensive ability than Coburn. To me, I think of Nurse as a more aggressive and physical Coburn with a better shot and more offensive upside.

I don't know where the low hockey IQ thing came from...can you prorivde a link or quote source for that?
A scout on the prospects board wrote that a common complaint among scouts was that Nurse seemed "dumb" on the ice.

I look at Nurse, and I see Dion Phaneuf. Same benefits. Same risks.

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05-24-2013, 12:23 PM
  #735
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Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
One I know offhand. Pronman (who ive talked to and respect due to him knowing tons of scouts).

http://www.hockeyprospectus.com/arti...articleid=1523

No i havent seen him play but talked to people who did. Obviously you disagree with the scouts who say its a problem.

Also good read here:

http://www.inlouwetrust.com/2013/5/2...ospect-profile

I can find more if you want. I think eklund did a piece also.
Here is what Pronman quotes:

Quote:
Pulock always seems to make the right decisions, whether it is to rush, pass, or shoot. Defensively, he is strong on his checks, controls his gaps well, and generally stays with his assignments. Still, he is prone to a breakdown at certain times. The biggest criticism of Pulock is his skating. Some scouts describe it as average, others as above average. Despite having solid mobility, he does not seem to have a blazing top gear. His game is more based on feel than dangling or pushing the pace."
Here's what you posted:

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Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
The below average skating and defensive ability is scary.
Surely you see the discrepancy between your slant and the actual unnamed scouting report upon which you are basing the assessment. No where does it state his skating is "below average" or his defensive ability is poor.

I would agree that Pulock's skating is average, but that doesn't change the fact that he's a solid two-way defensemen with solid acumen and a booming shot.

If you like Morrissey more, as some seem to indicate, I can accept that because they have slightly different strengths. Morrissey does everything pretty well with his superior skill being his skating. Pulock does everything well with a monster shot. Pulock is a bit more physically developed (+ 20 lbs) and produced at a higher level on a significantly worse team against like competition. Morrissey takes some bad risks sometimes. Pulock has defensive lapses on occasion. I have them right next to each other around 11 and 12 respectively. Both have 2-way ability, some things that can improve, and a lot to like. If the Flyers go Morrissey at 11, I really wouldn't be disappointed. I just object to the notion that Pulock isn't worthy of consideration based on some false impressions of his play,

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05-24-2013, 12:28 PM
  #736
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Originally Posted by Jack de la Hoya View Post
A scout on the prospects board wrote that a common complaint among scouts was that Nurse seemed "dumb" on the ice.

I look at Nurse, and I see Dion Phaneuf. Same benefits. Same risks.
That's where good coaching and having a strong veteran group comes into play. I feel for Phaneuf because he was basically thrust into the role of top defenseman in Calgary, when he should have been the number 3 or 4 guy and let him earn the top spot. It was handed to him immediately and it back fired. Since then, Phaneuf has really had no structure to his game and he's suffered as a result.

I'd have to think that in Philadelphia, Nurse would benefit from having Pronger, Hatcher, Timonen and Kevin McCarthy around to guide him on the finer points. I also think that some scouts are little off their rocker with regards to him being dumb on the ice. If anything, he's a bit over aggressive at times, but that's something that can be corrected with good coaching.

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05-24-2013, 12:32 PM
  #737
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At the 11th pick, we should be able to pick a decent offensive defenseman.
If not then I would be willing to trade #11 pick+ for possible #1 PMD.
Not interested in more offense/centers on a team with this kind of shoddy defense.

I want a defenseman with offensive ability not one we hope develops an offensive game.
We need a powerplay, puck moving defenseman for our 2nd pairing and next years 1st pairing.

The best offensive defensemen not including Jones, are Pulock and Morrisey in my opinion.
Ristolainen I see as a good 2-way defenseman, and he is the only other defenseman worth drafting at 11.

Not interested in either Nurse or Zadarov with the 11th pick.
Nurse looks like a bust to me, just something in my gut maybe its the McNabb factor.
Zadarov, looks like defensive defenseman, no thanks.

Not interested in another center, or defensive defensemen at the 11th pick.


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05-24-2013, 12:33 PM
  #738
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Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
That's where good coaching and having a strong veteran group comes into play. I feel for Phaneuf because he was basically thrust into the role of top defenseman in Calgary, when he should have been the number 3 or 4 guy and let him earn the top spot. It was handed to him immediately and it back fired. Since then, Phaneuf has really had no structure to his game and he's suffered as a result.

I'd have to think that in Philadelphia, Nurse would benefit from having Pronger, Hatcher, Timonen and Kevin McCarthy around to guide him on the finer points. I also think that some scouts are little off their rocker with regards to him being dumb on the ice. If anything, he's a bit over aggressive at times, but that's something that can be corrected with good coaching.
In terms of tools, though, is Phaneuf far off?

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05-24-2013, 12:37 PM
  #739
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In terms of tools, though, is Phaneuf far off?
I'd say that Nurse is a significantly better skater and better defensive awareness and positioning.

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05-24-2013, 12:37 PM
  #740
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Counter counter argument is that even if he has that much more room, he's still going to be behind everyone else in terms of development. When he reaches his plateau, every other defender will be miles ahead of him.
Well seems like he has his offensive game down pretty good and just needs to work on his defensive game(which is much easier to learn). The fact he has only been playing the position for 3 years to me says he has more room to grow that aspect of his game. Now if one was worried can he grow his offensive game that would be a different beast

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05-24-2013, 12:55 PM
  #741
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I like the fact Pulock is an offense first defenseman.
That is a strength to me on this team of offensively challanged defensemen.
We have enough stay at home defensive defensemen, in fact we are overloaded
with too many of the same player.

We need a different kind of defenseman -- a player with offensive skill, powerplay ability and a great slapshot.
He has above average skating skill according to Button.
The fact that he only skates as good as Timmonen, should not be a problem.

I like the fact that he is bigger than Morrisey and was the captain of the team.

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05-24-2013, 12:58 PM
  #742
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Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
That's where good coaching and having a strong veteran group comes into play. I feel for Phaneuf because he was basically thrust into the role of top defenseman in Calgary, when he should have been the number 3 or 4 guy and let him earn the top spot. It was handed to him immediately and it back fired. Since then, Phaneuf has really had no structure to his game and he's suffered as a result.

I'd have to think that in Philadelphia, Nurse would benefit from having Pronger, Hatcher, Timonen and Kevin McCarthy around to guide him on the finer points. I also think that some scouts are little off their rocker with regards to him being dumb on the ice. If anything, he's a bit over aggressive at times, but that's something that can be corrected with good coaching.
I agree. If by some strange chance Nurse falls to 11 and he is their BPA then they have to pick him up. I know his uncle is a jerk but this young man should blossom in this setting here in Philly. However I see him and Lindholm gone by 11. The way I figure it unless one of the players the Flyers are in love with drops into their lap. my three should be there and I really beleive that anyone of them would fit in here like a glove. Samuel Morin,Joshua Morrissey and Kerby Rychel come on down!!

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05-24-2013, 01:02 PM
  #743
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I agree. If by some strange chance Nurse falls to 11 and he is their BPA then they have to pick him up. I know his uncle is a jerk but this young man should blossom in this setting here in Philly. However I see him and Lindholm gone by 11. The way I figure it unless one of the players the Flyers are in love with drops into their lap. my three should be there and I really beleive that anyone of them would fit in here like a glove. Samuel Morin,Joshua Morrissey and Kerby Rychel come on down!!
I'd be a bit surprised to see them take Rychel. A few other forwards who figure to be on the board? Maybe.

Morin would definitely be off the board--but, as others have said, if he comes with Nolet's blessing, I guess that's enough for me.

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05-24-2013, 01:22 PM
  #744
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Originally Posted by DownieFaceSoftener View Post
It was an interesting read. It almost looks addressed to us.

One point of contention, ASF says:

"It was hard to argue the Flyers drafting James van Riemsdyk at No. 2 overall in 2007. There were decent defenseman drafted in some of the slots behind him – Karl Alzner (Washington), Ryan McDonagh (New York Rangers), Kevin Shattenkirk (Colorado), but none worthy of the No. 2 pick. Van Riemsdyk was traded last year for Schenn – who continues to grow as a top pair defenseman for the Flyers. There was a mistake in round two, as the Flyers chose defenseman Kevin Marshall two picks ahead of Montreal selecting P.K. Subban, but again, not every team is perfect, and frankly, every team had a shot at Subban in the first round and passed."

None worthy of the No. 2 pick? Shattenkirk was (looking backwards). Perhaps he means: "at the time, given the landscape and scouting reports." -- and missing on Kevin Marshall was a pretty big mistake. Every team makes mistakes, I know, but given what Marshall was supposed to be versus what he became was pretty horrible. The Sbisa pick wasn't the greatest, either. It got us Pronger, sure, and invariably if Pronger was healthy I doubt the defense would be such a major issue to begin with.

Sorry ASF, I must disagree.
Alzner, MacDonagh, or Shattenkirk are all legitimate picks first round picks for a team needing an offensive defenseman.
If you needed to trade back you could have done so then taken one of the defensemen.
Or you could have simply traded the pick for a #1 defenseman.
The Flyers missing on a 2nd round pick is nothing new.
It is not like Marshall was going to be the next Shea Weber.

And the Pronger excuse is old now. Pronger was not gonna play like a #1 until he was 40.
The Flyers of course never drafted anyone to replace him in the future.
Assuming they could trade or offersheet a #1 and get one that way.
This lack of future planning is why we continue to trade our best prospects (centers) and future picks for defensemen.

We build our team backwards from the front line back instead of from the goal crease up.
If this insanity continues we will never see the Flyers win another cup.

A #1 defenseman is much more valuable than two #2 centers, but we continue to believe the opposite and draft centers every year.


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05-24-2013, 01:26 PM
  #745
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I'm pretty sure that he meant that those guys weren't viewed as legitimate picks at #2 at the time, which is true.

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05-24-2013, 01:51 PM
  #746
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If you look at the needs of the systems with the first seven teams in the draft and the players that are available, most likely you can take Drouin, Jones, Mackinnon, Barkov, Nichushkin, Monaha and Lindholm off of the board. Buffalo needs a lot but most likely would take a forward( Domi, Horvat or Wennberg). The Devils could go off of the reservation with their pick; they need forwards but also could use a goaltender; lets say that they take Wennberg. Dallas could use a PMD; one of Ristolainen, Nurse, Pulock, Zadorov or Morrissey could go here. That leaves the Flyers to take the best of the rest of that pack. I'd like to get Risto but if he's gone, Morrissey would get my vote.

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05-24-2013, 04:56 PM
  #747
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Originally Posted by Jack de la Hoya View Post
I'm pretty sure that he meant that those guys weren't viewed as legitimate picks at #2 at the time, which is true.
I wouldn't consider Alzner an offensive defensemen either.

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05-24-2013, 06:04 PM
  #748
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Does anyone think Tomáš Hyka should be the pick at 11? I mean he did score a preseason goal.

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05-24-2013, 08:06 PM
  #749
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Does anyone think Tomáš Hyka should be the pick at 11? I mean he did score a preseason goal.
That's an obvious no

It would be Niko Dimitrakos

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05-24-2013, 08:08 PM
  #750
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Wasn't McDonuts drafted by the habs?

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