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Old
05-24-2013, 10:03 AM
  #301
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clumping platelets View Post
Thanks for the heads up omlimpotent one
"omlimpotent"
Jame's omniscient, not omnipotent, and certainly not omlimpotent - he and Claire had a baby last year!!!!

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Originally Posted by Der Jaeger View Post
I'd be OK with Vanek for Burmistrov nearly straight up. I'm sure Regier could wriggle a draft pick out of Winnipeg too. I'm willing to deal one more year of Vanek for four years of Burmistrov... probably more.
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Originally Posted by clumping platelets View Post
But wouldn't this be underselling an asset? Darcy is notorious for "winning the deal". I doubt he would make that straight up trade. Now if the Jets throw in #16 and a solid prospect with the Jets taking full salary/cap....I could get behind that deal.

Ok....so Jame doesn't like my deal proposal. How about something around Vanek + for Burmistrov and Byfuglien?
Vanek for Burmi and big-Buff is tilted too much in Sabres favor from a player-control perspective. Hence, Der Jaeger's post above.
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Originally Posted by Der Jaeger View Post
If Regier could get Burmistrov and Winnipeg's first for one year of Vanek, I think he wins that deal.

I don't think Vanek is worth Burmistrov and Byfuglien unless Winnipeg is allowed to pre-trade negotiate with Vanek and has an extension deal in place. I think that's not likely, and may not even be possible under the new CBA (not a CBA guru).
Agreed.

Also, I'd do Stafford for Burmi, even up.
I have no qualms about Burmi, at his age, being "uncoachable" or needing "respect". It's not like Stafford has been coachable. He could be a 35 +/-5 goal mini power forward if he tried like he did in his pending FA year. I'll take the younger, "uncoachable" player with upside over the proven "underperforming" veteran, 6 days a week and 2x on Sunday.

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05-24-2013, 10:26 AM
  #302
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Originally Posted by Djp View Post
Based on my understanding, when a tean can retain half his salary in a deal, it appears as if that means they basically eat is remaining salary at the deadline...thus he is free for the team that gets hm.
can someone verify this...

That's not my understanding... but rarely am I under the correct impression about this stuff

edit: looks like you are incorrect:

Quote:
1. The acquiring team must assume at least 50 percent of the remaining salary and cap charge of the SPC.
2. Such a contract can only be traded twice using provision 1 during the lifetime of the SPC.
3. Retained salary by the trading team cannot be more than 15 percent of the upper salary cap limit.
4. A maximum of 3 such contracts with salary retained in a trade can be on a team's books at any one time.
Aplayer with a 5 mil salary/cap.... will have around 2 mil remaining at the deadline, the dealing team can retain up to 50% of the REMAINING sal/cap.... so the team would only retain up to 1 mil, of the remaining 2 mil


Last edited by Jame: 05-24-2013 at 11:18 AM.
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05-24-2013, 10:28 AM
  #303
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Originally Posted by Tyler2829 View Post
I think a deadline move with Vanek is too risky given his injury troubles that usually come mid-season.
That's a really good point... and the first time I seen someone bring it up

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05-24-2013, 11:12 AM
  #304
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All I know is if Vanek isn't traded this offseason, he better be re-signed. I fear Regier is going to pull a Feaster and wait until the deadline, prolonging the inevitable and getting next to nothing for him. Strike while the iron is hot, or lock him up for the next 5.

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05-24-2013, 11:40 AM
  #305
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
can someone verify this...

That's not my understanding... but rarely am I under the correct impression about this stuff

edit: looks like you are incorrect:



Aplayer with a 5 mil salary/cap.... will have around 2 mil remaining at the deadline, the dealing team can retain up to 50% of the REMAINING sal/cap.... so the team would only retain up to 1 mil, of the remaining 2 mil
I didn't realize the 50% included retaining the 50% cap hit as well. Moving Vanek around 3.5mil right now or at 1.5 mil at the trade deadline should be a lot easier then. We should be able to get more then just Burmi if we trade to a "our window is closing" team. I agree that Stafford should be our main piece, maybe an nhl ready prospect who has a little less talent but isn't head case would work as well. Flynn or Tropp, + a 2nd.

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05-24-2013, 12:01 PM
  #306
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With Bobrovsky possibly making a move to the KHL, I could see Columbus offering up one of those 1st for Miller.

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05-24-2013, 12:07 PM
  #307
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Originally Posted by wearegodawful View Post
All I know is if Vanek isn't traded this offseason, he better be re-signed. I fear Regier is going to pull a Feaster and wait until the deadline, prolonging the inevitable and getting next to nothing for him. Strike while the iron is hot, or lock him up for the next 5.
Feaster was at the mercy of Iginla's movement clause. Vanek doesn't have one of those, Regier can take the best deal offered, rather than the best deal offered from the small number of teams the player was willing to go to.

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05-24-2013, 12:29 PM
  #308
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Vanek for Burmistrov? That would be one of the worst trades in NHL history. If Darcy wouldn't do Stafford for Burmistrov why would he trade Vanek, the only player that Darcy has ever drafted who averages 30+ goals a season. Impending UFA Or not, Vanek is worth infinitely more then Burmistrov.

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05-24-2013, 02:01 PM
  #309
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Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
With Bobrovsky possibly making a move to the KHL, I could see Columbus offering up one of those 1st for Miller.
He'll stay with Columbus as long as they are willing to pay him.

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05-24-2013, 03:38 PM
  #310
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
can someone verify this...

That's not my understanding... but rarely am I under the correct impression about this stuff

edit: looks like you are incorrect:



Aplayer with a 5 mil salary/cap.... will have around 2 mil remaining at the deadline, the dealing team can retain up to 50% of the REMAINING sal/cap.... so the team would only retain up to 1 mil, of the remaining 2 mil


look at Pominville....

Salary=$5.5M, cap hit $5.3M

a per game pay rate=5.3/82=$64,634

If he was on the Minnesota roster for 12 games---his remaining Salray owed was $775,610

The Sabres took a cap hit of $795,000 this year.


so explain away please

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05-24-2013, 03:43 PM
  #311
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
can someone verify this...



Aplayer with a 5 mil salary/cap.... will have around 2 mil remaining at the deadline, the dealing team can retain up to 50% of the REMAINING sal/cap.... so the team would only retain up to 1 mil, of the remaining 2 mil
In a normal season the trade dealines is around the end of February. At this point most of the teams have played 60+ games.

This means the amount owed by a team is 25% of the cap amount. If the salary one $5M---that equates to $1.25M--not 2 million.

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05-24-2013, 03:52 PM
  #312
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Djp View Post
look at Pominville....

Salary=$5.5M, cap hit $5.3M

a per game pay rate=5.3/82=$64,634

If he was on the Minnesota roster for 12 games---his remaining Salray owed was $775,610

The Sabres took a cap hit of $795,000 this year.


so explain away please

In terms of salary cap, isn't it calculated per day, not per game (so for Pominville $5.3M/(however many days in the season). That might account for the discrepancy.

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05-24-2013, 03:53 PM
  #313
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1. The acquiring team must assume at least 50 percent of the remaining salary and cap charge of the SPC.
Its 50% of the reamining salary----not 50% for each individual year.

Same thing happened with Jokinen from Carolina to Pittsburgh they took a $900K cap hit this year and next year...that means Pittsburgh didnt owe him anything.

all they are on the hook for nest season at around $2M

I dont know where your source of your quote is so I have no way of verifying it.

Even if that is the case that for a rental the team where you have 25% of the games and they retain half that means the players salary would be around 12.5% of his salary. still cheap.

66 games would mean 80% of the season played---thus a deal at that time split would get the rate down to 10% for each team.

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05-24-2013, 03:56 PM
  #314
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Djp View Post
In a normal season the trade dealines is around the end of February. At this point most of the teams have played 60+ games.

This means the amount owed by a team is 25% of the cap amount. If the salary one $5M---that equates to $1.25M--not 2 million.
nice math

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05-24-2013, 03:57 PM
  #315
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Originally Posted by Ruckus007 View Post
In terms of salary cap, isn't it calculated per day, not per game (so for Pominville $5.3M/(however many days in the season). That might account for the discrepancy.
If that is the case its by days...then usually the deadline is about 6 weeks from the end of the season. the season length is 26 weeks.

that is 23% of the salary--split equally brings it down to 11.5% per team.

As for the per game vs per day checks....this makes things complicated because of travel. players pay taxes based on the location of their game. It should be based on a per game check.

There are certain clauses in contracts about days on the roster and slary paid based on a callup.


Last edited by Djp: 05-24-2013 at 04:07 PM.
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05-24-2013, 04:02 PM
  #316
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Originally Posted by wearegodawful View Post
All I know is if Vanek isn't traded this offseason, he better be re-signed. I fear Regier is going to pull a Feaster and wait until the deadline, prolonging the inevitable and getting next to nothing for him. Strike while the iron is hot, or lock him up for the next 5.
teams would easily make offers for him at the deadline. He would be the best player available and if a team views him as the missing piece for the cup they would offer a 1st + 2 quality young players.

Vanek has no control on movement--Iginla had a non movement clause which allowed him to control where he went to which limited the bidding to Pittsburgh and Chicago which allowed this two to collude and lower the price for him.

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05-24-2013, 04:04 PM
  #317
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If youre right, I just want to know that, so when I make horrendous trade proposals I can use it, without being the person just repeating what someone else incorrectly stated...

http://nbcprohockeytalk.files.wordpr...an-12-2013.pdf

Quote:
In the context of Player Trades, participating Clubs will be permitted to allocate the AA and related Salary and Bonus payment obligations between them, subject to specified parameters (“Retained
Salary Transaction”). Specifically, the Club trading a Player may agree to retain a percentage of the SPC’s AA and related Salary and Bonus obligations for each of the remaining years of the Player’s
SPC, up to 50 % of the SPC’s AA. In each Retained Salary Transaction, the percentage allocation of the retained AA and retained Salary and Bonuses must be the same (i.e., the Salary and Bonus obligations as between Clubs would be allocated on the same percentage basis as the AA being allocated) and cannot be altered from year to year. So, for instance, if an assigning Club agrees to retain 30% of an SPC’s AA over the balance of its term, it will also retain an obligation to reimburse the acquiring Club 30% of the Player’s contractual compensation (Salary and Bonuses) in each of the remaining years of the contract. A Club may have up to a maximum of three (3)
SPCs on its Cap per League Year as to which a portion of the AA and Salary have been retained in a Player NHL/NHLPA PROPOSED CBA Trade, provided, however, that the aggregate amount of AA retained by a Club does not exceed 15% of the Upper Limit (e.g., 15% of $70.2 million or $10.53 million in Year 1; 15% of $64.3 million or $9.645 million in Year 2; or $12 million if the Upper Limit equals $80.0 million)
in the aggregate for all such contracts in any one year. An SPC can be subject to a Retained Salary Transaction up to a maximum of two (2) times. The NHL shall promptly disclose the amount of Retained Salary and Bonus obligations in every Retained Salary Transaction to the NHLPA. In the case of one or more Retained Salary Transactions, and a subsequent SPC “buy-out” or termination such that the SPC is no longer in force, the resulting cash and cap consequences will be divided as between the Club parties to the prior transaction(s) on the same basis they originally agreed upon. In the case of one or more Retained Salary Transactions, and a subsequent Loan of the SPC, the prior Club(s) shall retain their portion of the SPC’s NHL cap charge that they agreed to retain for the balance of the Player’s contract (regardless of whether the Player is ever recalled), but will get the benefit of any reduced cash obligations to the Player during the time he is playing outside the League.The Player shall be paid by the Club
for which he currently plays (or most recently played for).

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05-24-2013, 04:06 PM
  #318
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Djp View Post
If that is the case its by days...then usually the deadline is about 6 weeks from the end of the season. the season length is 26 weeks.

that is 23% of the salary--split equally brings it down to 11.5% per team.
it's 183 day NHL calendar for cap purposes (i believe)

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05-24-2013, 04:07 PM
  #319
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Djp View Post
Its 50% of the reamining salary----not 50% for each individual year.

Same thing happened with Jokinen from Carolina to Pittsburgh they took a $900K cap hit this year and next year...that means Pittsburgh didnt owe him anything.

all they are on the hook for nest season at around $2M

I dont know where your source of your quote is so I have no way of verifying it.

Even if that is the case that for a rental the team where you have 25% of the games and they retain half that means the players salary would be around 12.5% of his salary. still cheap.


66 games would mean 80% of the season played---thus a deal at that time split would get the rate down to 10% for each team.
I didn't say he wouldn't be cheap...
Im just unaware of the statement you made that a team could retain the full remaining cost.

I thought it was up to 50% of remaining

If you have some references i'd like to take a peak

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05-24-2013, 10:34 PM
  #320
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I think a deadline move with Vanek is too risky given his injury troubles that usually come mid-season.
Great point.

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05-25-2013, 01:47 PM
  #321
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Originally Posted by Layne Staley View Post
Vanek for Burmistrov? That would be one of the worst trades in NHL history. If Darcy wouldn't do Stafford for Burmistrov why would he trade Vanek, the only player that Darcy has ever drafted who averages 30+ goals a season. Impending UFA Or not, Vanek is worth infinitely more then Burmistrov.
Agreed. I wouldn't do a straight up, however something along the lines of...

to

RW Thomas Vanek ($7.143M [$2M Retained])
2013 1st RND pick (16th)

to

C/W Alexander Burmistrov ($1.5M RFA)
C/W Patrice Cormier ($854K RFA)
2013 1st RND pick (13th)
conditional 2014/15 3rd RND pick (If Vanek re-signs)

... I would do in a second.

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05-25-2013, 01:58 PM
  #322
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Originally Posted by Blitz View Post
Agreed. I wouldn't do a straight up, however something along the lines of...

to

RW Thomas Vanek ($7.143M [$2M Retained])
2013 1st RND pick (16th)

to

C/W Alexander Burmistrov ($1.5M RFA)
C/W Patrice Cormier ($854K RFA)
2013 1st RND pick (13th)
conditional 2014/15 3rd RND pick (If Vanek re-signs)

... I would do in a second.
Why? The only thing Cormier has done in his career is pull one of the worst cheap shots in the last 10 years. Swapping 1sts to move up 3 spots does not even come close to making this fair. Cormier + Burmistrov aren't worth anything near Vanek, even if its a deadline deal and Vanek has publicly said he won't re-sign... Cormier is a fringe NHLer and Burmistrov is heading toward being a bust.

Winnipeg wants Vanek?

Trouba + 1st or Scheifele straight up. The Sabres are the team holding all the cards. Take a look at the FA market, it's absolute garbage. Teams are going to be paying elite money to guys like Derek Roy and Mike Ribeiro because they are the 2 best centers available. David Clarkson will get 5 mil easily and he's a 2nd liner at best. Iginla is the jewel and he will only go to 3 or 4 of the best teams. That means contenders will need to look at the trade market. Thomas Vanek will be the best player available either in FA or the trade market by far. It's not everyday a 35 goal scorer in the top 10 for goals scored since the 04 lockout who has always scored 20+ goals every season becomes available. Vanek will return an amazing trade package. To be honest I'd rather try and convince him to stay then trade him.

With Darcy in charge we will never find a Vanek replacement. In the 16 years Darcy has been in charge he has drafted exactly ONE player who averages 30+ goals/82 games. And that one player is Thomas Vanek. Trade Vanek and we might never acquire a goal scorer even nearly as good. I hope Pegula can talk to Thomas and convince him to stay.

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05-25-2013, 03:53 PM
  #323
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Originally Posted by Layne Staley View Post
Why? The only thing Cormier has done in his career is pull one of the worst cheap shots in the last 10 years. Swapping 1sts to move up 3 spots does not even come close to making this fair. Cormier + Burmistrov aren't worth anything near Vanek, even if its a deadline deal and Vanek has publicly said he won't re-sign... Cormier is a fringe NHLer and Burmistrov is heading toward being a bust.

Winnipeg wants Vanek?

Trouba + 1st or Scheifele straight up. The Sabres are the team holding all the cards. Take a look at the FA market, it's absolute garbage. Teams are going to be paying elite money to guys like Derek Roy and Mike Ribeiro because they are the 2 best centers available. David Clarkson will get 5 mil easily and he's a 2nd liner at best. Iginla is the jewel and he will only go to 3 or 4 of the best teams. That means contenders will need to look at the trade market. Thomas Vanek will be the best player available either in FA or the trade market by far. It's not everyday a 35 goal scorer in the top 10 for goals scored since the 04 lockout who has always scored 20+ goals every season becomes available. Vanek will return an amazing trade package. To be honest I'd rather try and convince him to stay then trade him.

With Darcy in charge we will never find a Vanek replacement. In the 16 years Darcy has been in charge he has drafted exactly ONE player who averages 30+ goals/82 games. And that one player is Thomas Vanek. Trade Vanek and we might never acquire a goal scorer even nearly as good. I hope Pegula can talk to Thomas and convince him to stay.
Burmi is not anywhere near a bust... get freakin' real - he has been horribly misused by Noel. That's like saying Grigo is a bust in Buffalo after this year.

As for Cormier, he has the potential to be a Downie/Ott/Ward type bottom-6 power forward, like we had with Kassian with a little lower ceiling. Perhaps I would start by asking or Telegin, before settling on Cormier though.

Although our best player, Vanek is injury prone, and streaky - although still a prolific offensive threat w/ 40 goal potential. There are no surprises or untapped potential as far as TV goes, so nobody is going to overpay (Scheifle, Trouba, etc...) for 1 year of service or the "What if..." factor.

IMO, it is very unlikely Vanek re-signs if we are in year one of a rebuild, he has already hinted at that to the media... Please try to remember what happened with Briere and Drury (zero return...) when you suggest that we wait with the hope of re-signing him. We either need him to commit right now and extend (which u=is going to cost us 8M/yr), or deal him for assets to assist in a full blown rebuild... but the value coming back is not going to be a franchise player for a 1yr. player @ 7M+ cap hit - you are severely over-rating the market value.

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05-25-2013, 05:54 PM
  #324
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Originally Posted by Layne Staley View Post
Why? The only thing Cormier has done in his career is pull one of the worst cheap shots in the last 10 years. Swapping 1sts to move up 3 spots does not even come close to making this fair. Cormier + Burmistrov aren't worth anything near Vanek, even if its a deadline deal and Vanek has publicly said he won't re-sign... Cormier is a fringe NHLer and Burmistrov is heading toward being a bust.

Winnipeg wants Vanek?

Trouba + 1st or Scheifele straight up. The Sabres are the team holding all the cards. Take a look at the FA market, it's absolute garbage. Teams are going to be paying elite money to guys like Derek Roy and Mike Ribeiro because they are the 2 best centers available. David Clarkson will get 5 mil easily and he's a 2nd liner at best. Iginla is the jewel and he will only go to 3 or 4 of the best teams. That means contenders will need to look at the trade market. Thomas Vanek will be the best player available either in FA or the trade market by far. It's not everyday a 35 goal scorer in the top 10 for goals scored since the 04 lockout who has always scored 20+ goals every season becomes available. Vanek will return an amazing trade package. To be honest I'd rather try and convince him to stay then trade him.

With Darcy in charge we will never find a Vanek replacement. In the 16 years Darcy has been in charge he has drafted exactly ONE player who averages 30+ goals/82 games. And that one player is Thomas Vanek. Trade Vanek and we might never acquire a goal scorer even nearly as good. I hope Pegula can talk to Thomas and convince him to stay.

your emotion is completely blinding... but also wildly entertaining

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05-26-2013, 12:49 PM
  #325
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your emotion is completely blinding... but also wildly entertaining
Isn't it always?

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