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05-24-2013, 05:25 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by MontrealFans View Post
TBH I don't see the point of defending or criticizing Price until the year where the Montreal Canadians as a team are considered playoff contenders. If it happens that one of these years we go into the post season being a top contender and Price doesn't deliver then we have a problem.( Example Ottawa teams of the past with Lalime. ) Right now defence and offence gets pushed around like children that to me isn't a contender so why go in on Price.
So if I understand what you're saying, a player's performances can't be judged until perfect conditions for him to succeed are in place ?

At this point, I've realized that my problem with people defending Price isn't about Price at all. It's about their views of how goaltending is held responsible for the fate of the team.

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05-24-2013, 05:26 PM
  #102
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I missed the part where we resembled that #4 offensive team in the playoffs.

Oh, that's right, we were off the bat missing Eller and Emelin AND had several key guys barely able to hold a stick.

Habs of the regular season were blessed with good health and during that time Carey was awesome (look up the damn stats).

Then we got cursed and was all downhill from there (not to mention Price himself being injured).

Management is alert to reality. Nothing to resolve here, just to hope that everyone stays healthy by time playoffs come around if we make them again. Look at Chicago last night. This is the NHL- you can be night and day depending on so many variables. And Chicago is not, to my knowledge suffering any key injuries.

Either way, if the Habs are healthy, we're good. Down the road, we're great! Carey will shine when it's time.
The time is now. Always. If you are waiting for a perfect team so that Carey can shine you will be dead before it happens. And he absolutely blew that series.

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05-24-2013, 05:29 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
So if I understand what you're saying, a player's performances can't be judged until perfect conditions for him to succeed are in place ?
If you are going to judge his performances and use your personal analysis to predict what he will do when we DO have a chance (it IS the Cup that ultimately matters), then short memories don't help and context should be applied.

I agree with the point that we're getting all "Carey'd" away by all this "Price has holes - PANIC!" stuff, when I believe a large number of us have seen what we need to, to convince us that when the team is ready to be a contender, the good version of Price will rise to the occasion. And that good version...is very very good.

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05-24-2013, 05:33 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by habtastic View Post
If you are going to judge his performances and use your personal analysis to predict what he will do when we DO have a chance (it IS the Cup that ultimately matters), then short memories don't help and context should be applied.

I agree with the point that we're getting all "Carey'd" away by all this "Price has holes - PANIC!" stuff, when I believe a large number of us have seen what we need to, to convince us that when the team is ready to be a contender, the good version of Price will rise to the occasion. And that good version...is very very good.
I can't say I've seen anything that would convince me that this is the case. This seems to be a faith thing more than anything else.

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05-24-2013, 05:38 PM
  #105
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The time is now. Always. If you are waiting for a perfect team so that Carey can shine you will be dead before it happens. And he absolutely blew that series.
He screwed up in game 1

He was dominant in game 2 (deny it if you want, not going to argue that fact)

He was solid for a good 2 periods where we absolutely sucked (that's when the team in front of you HAS to freakin score...we couldn't create a single chance) and then the inevitable happened. After the 3rd goal, he wasn't really playing much.

He was solid in game 4 and got jobbed by the refs/injured (who knows, we could have won that in OT with him in). BTW, that tying goal, aside from his stick being tied up, it was a smart move to cut back from behind the net and fully on Prust who was down for the count. So many fails outside of Price on that play resulted in the GTG. Should have been a 2-2 series, we all know it. He was very good in that game until the league stepped in.

Not present in game 5.

---

IMO he had a fine series marred only by one game and another game where the team was just pathetic in front of him. I defy Quick to have won game 3 for us. Price wasn't the problem there and for anyone who watched game 5...it was clear how badly Price was missed.

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05-24-2013, 05:40 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
I don't agree with your reasoning in the slightest. Price enabled the Habs--by no means a great team--to become the Northeast division leaders rather than enjoying the benefit of playing on a great team. Sure, Crawford and Emery were not the prime factors in the success of the heavily loaded Hawks. Why didn't Rask do it for the Bruins, who as we plainly see, have better personnel than the Habs? It seems to me that you aren't being realistic--or fair--in not acknowledging Price's major contribution to the Habs' rise from 15th to 2nd in the East.
he was average this season, average goaltending doesnt "enable" a division win.

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05-24-2013, 06:20 PM
  #107
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He screwed up in game 1

He was dominant in game 2 (deny it if you want, not going to argue that fact)

He was solid for a good 2 periods where we absolutely sucked (that's when the team in front of you HAS to freakin score...we couldn't create a single chance) and then the inevitable happened. After the 3rd goal, he wasn't really playing much.

He was solid in game 4 and got jobbed by the refs/injured (who knows, we could have won that in OT with him in). BTW, that tying goal, aside from his stick being tied up, it was a smart move to cut back from behind the net and fully on Prust who was down for the count. So many fails outside of Price on that play resulted in the GTG. Should have been a 2-2 series, we all know it. He was very good in that game until the league stepped in.

Not present in game 5.

---

IMO he had a fine series marred only by one game and another game where the team was just pathetic in front of him. I defy Quick to have won game 3 for us. Price wasn't the problem there and for anyone who watched game 5...it was clear how badly Price was missed.
From my point of view, a near perfect team game was spoiled by Price in game 1, game 2was solid.

Should have been 2-0 and down 2-1 going into the 3rd in game 3 in the other teams building, which is where you want the opposition and where a great goaltender will put on the chokehold. Instead it's a 3rd period letdown and the series has gone the other way.

Everything after that was ugly, but a great goaltender has the team up 3-0 in the series and the other team is near white flagging it. At worst at 2-1 Ottawa has to win 3 of 4 which is tough to do with 2 games in Montreal.

As it was the team was down 2-1 to a team that should arguably be dead and buried.

Sure I have made some assumptions about momentum and the coulda shouldas , but it's not hard to imagine a completely different series if Price nails down game 1 or has a great third period in game 3.

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05-24-2013, 06:23 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
So if I understand what you're saying, a player's performances can't be judged until perfect conditions for him to succeed are in place ?

At this point, I've realized that my problem with people defending Price isn't about Price at all. It's about their views of how goaltending is held responsible for the fate of the team.
In fact I would argue the opposite is more likely, Price has always shown he can snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. He's not a good 3rd period goalie regardless of the quality of team in front of him.

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05-24-2013, 07:42 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
In fact I would argue the opposite is more likely, Price has always shown he can snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. He's not a good 3rd period goalie regardless of the quality of team in front of him.
The problem I have with the reasoning I quoted is that the guy said you can't evaluate Price until we have a contender.

That's silly because a goalie can play well despite his team playing badly (Price in 2010), or bad despite his team playing well (2013).

And what's particularly stupid about that line of thinking is that once we have a real contender.. it will be the worse time to realize that our goaltender can't cut it in pressure situation.

I just don't get where the poster was coming from with that type of reasoning.

That said, I'm not for trading Price this summer. Not unless a really amazing offer presents itself and we have a good solution for his replacement... which would be a lot of work and uncertainty. No, Price will be the guy next season. We'll see what he can do. He gets another chance...

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05-24-2013, 07:55 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by habtastic View Post

Habs of the regular season were blessed with good health and during that time Carey was awesome (look up the damn stats).
Maybe you should do what you suggest he does.


Price sav% .905..... 35th in the league
....... GAA 2.59..... 29th in the league

Habs Shots against 26.9.....4th in the league

In your mind Price's numbers are an indication of awesomeness? I'd love to hear your explanation .

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05-24-2013, 08:03 PM
  #111
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You're talking about the same leader of the management team that said "I have 150% faith in Carey Price". That management?

Such keyboard warriors out here...

Thats a good looking kid right there

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05-24-2013, 08:21 PM
  #112
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From my point of view, a near perfect team game was spoiled by Price in game 1, game 2was solid.

Should have been 2-0 and down 2-1 going into the 3rd in game 3 in the other teams building, which is where you want the opposition and where a great goaltender will put on the chokehold. Instead it's a 3rd period letdown and the series has gone the other way.

Everything after that was ugly, but a great goaltender has the team up 3-0 in the series and the other team is near white flagging it. At worst at 2-1 Ottawa has to win 3 of 4 which is tough to do with 2 games in Montreal.

As it was the team was down 2-1 to a team that should arguably be dead and buried.

Sure I have made some assumptions about momentum and the coulda shouldas , but it's not hard to imagine a completely different series if Price nails down game 1 or has a great third period in game 3.

What about the team that couldn't score a goal to make it 3-3 in the first one ?

What about the third period of the third game... Care to Watch the goals again? Sure he could make all those stops, sure it would be great. Fact is, no one does that more than 4-5 times a year. Lower your expectations for goaltenders or you're in for a disapointing life.

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05-24-2013, 10:47 PM
  #113
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Anderson will be given a free pass and there will be appreciation threads about him because the excuse is that the Pens are scoring machines. Well, anybody is a scoring machine if you give them a ton of great chances. In the Ottawa series, the goals Price let it, even in game 1, Anderson was letting them in tonight, the previous game and prior to that as well. The point is that he plays a certain style that is best exemplified by his game 2 performance. If you let ottawa walk in on him alone a million times, that's the same as having James Neal light you up for a hat trick. Look what has happened to Lundqvist.

Price is held to this standard where every goal allowed is horrible. I admitted it when he sucked and was legitimately p'ssed, but IMO he was fine in the Ottawa series and the rest of our team was not. Tbf, Erik Gryba had a lot to do with that (and Lucic's knee ftm).

On the Zibanejad kick in (btw, for once Cherry pointed out something great), nobody talks about how Tinordi screened Price in terms of where the puck was and let it go right through his legs and even over his stick. Love the kid, but THAT was why that illegal goal was even allowed to occur.

How many goalies stop shots that go top corner these days? Either they miss or they go in. Pageau does have a good shot, I'll give him that, and he made those two count. Maybe it would be nice not to give him those opportunities/he converted them so credit to the shooter.

The whole series was a clusterfck, but apart from letting the lead slip in game 1, Price made lots of key and timely saves to give the bulldogs a chance. I don't know what happened to Budaj from the regular season cuz he disappeared quickly/damn you diaz!

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05-25-2013, 12:23 AM
  #114
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Anderson will be given a free pass and there will be appreciation threads about him because the excuse is that the Pens are scoring machines. Well, anybody is a scoring machine if you give them a ton of great chances. In the Ottawa series, the goals Price let it, even in game 1, Anderson was letting them in tonight, the previous game and prior to that as well. The point is that he plays a certain style that is best exemplified by his game 2 performance. If you let ottawa walk in on him alone a million times, that's the same as having James Neal light you up for a hat trick. Look what has happened to Lundqvist.

Price is held to this standard where every goal allowed is horrible. I admitted it when he sucked and was legitimately p'ssed, but IMO he was fine in the Ottawa series and the rest of our team was not. Tbf, Erik Gryba had a lot to do with that (and Lucic's knee ftm).

On the Zibanejad kick in (btw, for once Cherry pointed out something great), nobody talks about how Tinordi screened Price in terms of where the puck was and let it go right through his legs and even over his stick. Love the kid, but THAT was why that illegal goal was even allowed to occur.

How many goalies stop shots that go top corner these days? Either they miss or they go in. Pageau does have a good shot, I'll give him that, and he made those two count. Maybe it would be nice not to give him those opportunities/he converted them so credit to the shooter.

The whole series was a clusterfck, but apart from letting the lead slip in game 1, Price made lots of key and timely saves to give the bulldogs a chance. I don't know what happened to Budaj from the regular season cuz he disappeared quickly/damn you diaz!
I'm glad you brought up how Anderson crumbled in the last two games under the constant shelling. It reminds me of how Halak weakened against the Flyers after taking so many shots from the Caps and Penguins. The Sens totally outplayed the Habs, not to mention that they added injury to insult (my transposition of terms was intentional). And, as you point out, Budaj couldn't stop them either. I also delight in mentioning that Bylsma lost confidence in Fleury, who failed even though he was playing for the best team in the East.

I look forward to seeing Price supported by a healthy Hab team stocked with bigger, better Dmen and forwards who can keep the puck in the other team's ice.

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05-25-2013, 07:28 AM
  #115
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Just want to say this....everything is about expectations and money. Price was brought in as a saviour. He doesn't save as much as we thought he would....we're dissapointed. So let's lower our expectations....but then he has a salary of 6.5 M$. So how low is it acceptable to take our expectations at that salary? How come we weren't able to accept that Gomez could be a good PK'er and nice 4th line centerman for us? 'Cause he surely right now prooves that he still can play in this league.....and somehow is seen as a bargain? Why? 700 000$.

Now, what do we do with Price. As I said, and despite my question marks about him, you don't trade him. He is not my favorite type of goalie, not my favorite as far as attitude is concerned and not my favorite in style either. But your best bet as a team is to surround him better. But to REALLY do it. Not just think that the guys in place WILL be better. They won't be SIGNIFICANTLY better. Improving and becoming really better are 2 different beasts. If Bergevin is unable to do that, it won't be pretty. East won't be easier next year ON THE CONTRARY.

Personnally, I thought he'd be a bigger game changing player that he was. He still have time to prove that he is. But I guess it's not about that anymore. It's about NOT letting the crowd, the journalists or whoever wants to ship him out no matter what we have in return, not letting them have a chance to voice their opinions so that in the end, we are put in a terrible position and not get out of there with the upper hand. We CANNOT afford not getting the upper hand in that situation, no matter how it turns out. And the only way right now to avoid it is to surround himself better no matter what we think of him directly. I don't ****ing care anymore if you think he's elite top 5, top 10, top 50 or top 100, this is so subjective that it doesn't make any sense and it's totally not important. But we ALL agree that he should play better. And we ALL agree that we also have to be better everywhere else.

But as I keep mentioning for every young prospect we got, we need to give them the greatest chance to succeed and then if it doesn't work out, well let them have a try elsewhere. I thought that we had very good teams not that long ago. Yet, it didn't worked out. But he didn't have a whole lot of experience. Now he does. And now is the time to build a much better team, a team BUILD for the playoffs. If we do and he still doesn't pull it off, well we better acknowledge fast and move on and try to do the best deal possible. But we are so not there yet. Timmins might be Habs MVP....but Bergevin is so incredibly important RIGHT NOW.

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05-25-2013, 08:52 AM
  #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Just want to say this....everything is about expectations and money. Price was brought in as a saviour. He doesn't save as much as we thought he would....we're dissapointed. So let's lower our expectations....but then he has a salary of 6.5 M$. So how low is it acceptable to take our expectations at that salary? How come we weren't able to accept that Gomez could be a good PK'er and nice 4th line centerman for us? 'Cause he surely right now prooves that he still can play in this league.....and somehow is seen as a bargain? Why? 700 000$.

Now, what do we do with Price. As I said, and despite my question marks about him, you don't trade him. He is not my favorite type of goalie, not my favorite as far as attitude is concerned and not my favorite in style either. But your best bet as a team is to surround him better. But to REALLY do it. Not just think that the guys in place WILL be better. They won't be SIGNIFICANTLY better. Improving and becoming really better are 2 different beasts. If Bergevin is unable to do that, it won't be pretty. East won't be easier next year ON THE CONTRARY.

Personnally, I thought he'd be a bigger game changing player that he was. He still have time to prove that he is. But I guess it's not about that anymore. It's about NOT letting the crowd, the journalists or whoever wants to ship him out no matter what we have in return, not letting them have a chance to voice their opinions so that in the end, we are put in a terrible position and not get out of there with the upper hand. We CANNOT afford not getting the upper hand in that situation, no matter how it turns out. And the only way right now to avoid it is to surround himself better no matter what we think of him directly. I don't ****ing care anymore if you think he's elite top 5, top 10, top 50 or top 100, this is so subjective that it doesn't make any sense and it's totally not important. But we ALL agree that he should play better. And we ALL agree that we also have to be better everywhere else.

But as I keep mentioning for every young prospect we got, we need to give them the greatest chance to succeed and then if it doesn't work out, well let them have a try elsewhere. I thought that we had very good teams not that long ago. Yet, it didn't worked out. But he didn't have a whole lot of experience. Now he does. And now is the time to build a much better team, a team BUILD for the playoffs. If we do and he still doesn't pull it off, well we better acknowledge fast and move on and try to do the best deal possible. But we are so not there yet. Timmins might be Habs MVP....but Bergevin is so incredibly important RIGHT NOW.

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05-25-2013, 08:57 AM
  #117
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The problem I have with the reasoning I quoted is that the guy said you can't evaluate Price until we have a contender.

That's silly because a goalie can play well despite his team playing badly (Price in 2010), or bad despite his team playing well (2013).

And what's particularly stupid about that line of thinking is that once we have a real contender.. it will be the worse time to realize that our goaltender can't cut it in pressure situation.

I just don't get where the poster was coming from with that type of reasoning.

That said, I'm not for trading Price this summer. Not unless a really amazing offer presents itself and we have a good solution for his replacement... which would be a lot of work and uncertainty. No, Price will be the guy next season. We'll see what he can do. He gets another chance...
I dont know what to tell you I dont have any issues with your post I know Price let is softies this season but what Goalie doesnt, I also dont agree with this board that pretty much every goal that goes in on him especially the last 15 games of the season is a softie. Some of those goals were simply well placed shots I dont understand how this board expects shutouts.

Game 4 about 70% of ppl here say Price dropped the ball. I disagree completely he played amazing two goals that shouldnt have gone in. 1st kick in second a pathetic defensive display in front of the net ( Prust or MT blame one of them)

Finally after the Toronto game 3 goals on 4 shots. (All on price this game) The team stopped playing I cant even explain the difference in play it was a different team so his save percentage imploded I honestly did not expect it to stay at 914 after that terrible team took the ice for 2 weeks.

I liked his play before that he was being considered a vezina finalist by a lot of people and lost it as he should have after the last two weeks played by a completely different team I am not excluding him from this but he is not the reason the team played like crap.

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05-25-2013, 09:00 AM
  #118
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I'll be the first to agree with Whitesnake.

I think it's time we all take a good look at our team's performance, as a whole over different periods of the season and at individual games where we played really great and really shat the bed (Toronto games come to mind, as do destroying most of the Southeast Division).

Does anyone here actually believe Montreal will, with some IMPROVEMENTS to the team, repeat as a Division champions? Now I know Detroit coming may change some of that but seeing as they didnt really win their division and I would conclude that our new Division will be easier to play in given that Montreal, Toronto, Boston, Ottawa are not nearly as good as Chicago, St. Louis, Detroit and you add in Tampa Bay and Florida, Detroit could seriously take on Boston/Montreal for the division.

Keep that in mind for next year when you see the final standings. I believe we're a 6th place Conference team at best, but now with new Divisions, we're going to be fighting with the Leafs (and teams from other "Eastern" division) for the final 2 conference spots (and most likely beat out the Leafs who had sort of a cinderella type of a year if you ask me).

I like our team. I like our goalie despite his inconsistencies from year to year. When we're ready to ice a team that can win our division going forward or come in second in our division year after year (SC Contender essentially), then I'll be ready to cast Price out into the cold should he not play up to expectation. For POs especially, he needs to elevate his game to Quick/Lundqvist/Rask level of play and be damn good. But this team needs improvements, especially size in Top 6, defensive Top 4 needs to be more physically demanding, and our bottom 6 plus extra forwards need to be filled with really good depth guys (a la Stalberg/Bickell/other great role player variety).

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05-25-2013, 09:41 AM
  #119
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One thing though....enough with luck. This is a pathetic excuse. Everybody against us are lucky, we are unlucky...gods are against us....You make your own luck. Yes **** happens, but it happens to everybody in any giving year. People who are basing their team analysis on luck are just as bad as people blaming it solely on goalies or solely on everything but the goalie. It's even worst AFAIC.

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05-25-2013, 10:29 AM
  #120
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One thing though....enough with luck. This is a pathetic excuse. Everybody against us are lucky, we are unlucky...gods are against us....You make your own luck. Yes **** happens, but it happens to everybody in any giving year. People who are basing their team analysis on luck are just as bad as people blaming it solely on goalies or solely on everything but the goalie. It's even worst AFAIC.
Luck plays a huge involvement in season results, to ignore it is to be ignorant. I agree with you mostly that the really good teams can limit the amount of bad luck by playing exceptionally well. This do not mean we should ignore it or try to over analyze other details. Doing so will lead to poor decisions and knee jerk reactions like trading top prospects for declining centers.

I like our team, I think we're on the cusps of being a legit team that competes year in and year out, the building must continue, but the pieces in place at the core of this team haven't looked this good for a couple of decades.

We need to improve our winger depth, toughness on the backend and toughness in the top 6. We now have a player who at his worst should be a 10-15 dman for years to come, a goalie who many think can be one of the top in the league, an emerging center with size in eller, top prospects like gally and b gally, borderline star winger in patches, a solid 2 way center in pleks ect ect.

The problem for me is the veterans we decided to augment these guys with, our best players are those that came through our own system. For too long we were willing to take whoever will come, spare parts, if you will. Emelin looks to be developing, Diaz as well. Intriguing d prospects approaching NHL readiness. The future looks bright, the key positions looked to be almost locked down.

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05-25-2013, 10:31 AM
  #121
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Thats a good looking kid right there
Conceited.

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05-25-2013, 10:32 AM
  #122
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Luck plays a huge involvement in season results, to ignore it is to be ignorant. I agree with you mostly that the really good teams can limit the amount of bad luck by playing exceptionally well. This do not mean we should ignore it or try to over analyze other details. Doing so will lead to poor decisions and knee jerk reactions like trading top prospects for declining centers.
Problem I have with the constant luck argumentation is that it's always being brought up to explain our misfortune...but rarely brought up to explain our wins. Keep hearing how bad bounces are going against us...yet, the same bounces we end up having are either not talked about or put as "well it's about them we have those"....Makes no sense to me.

You say that not understanding luck might provoke knee jerk reactions....I'd say understanding luck too much might provoke too much staying put decisions....

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05-25-2013, 10:41 AM
  #123
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Problem I have with the constant luck argumentation is that it's always being brought up to explain our misfortune...but rarely brought up to explain our wins. Keep hearing how bad bounces are going against us...yet, the same bounces we end up having are either not talked about or put as "well it's about them we have those"....Makes no sense to me.

You say that not understanding luck might provoke knee jerk reactions....I'd say understanding luck too much might provoke too much staying put decisions....
I rather a patient approach than making decisions based on misunderstandings. We seen what poor decisions can do, it leads to giving good young players away for marginal returns, which ends up marginalizing our biggest asset, Trevor Timmins. We need a cautious but steady approach, we're approaching something big here imo. We have always been short on elite talent, we're making strides in that regard. I'd prefer a Dean Lombardi approach over a Paul Holmgren approach..

Add the pieces after the foundation is built, I think we finally have a competent management group to make the best of Trevor Timmins gifts. We've had the best amateur scouting in hockey for a decade and a management group that squandered it at every opportunity.

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05-25-2013, 12:09 PM
  #124
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Thats a good looking kid right there
lol wow

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05-25-2013, 12:28 PM
  #125
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lol wow


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Conceited.
Just a little

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