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Around the League #5: 2013 Play-offs Edition!: Nucks fire AV, AVs hire Roy

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Old
05-24-2013, 09:52 AM
  #376
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Originally Posted by Kyle McMahon View Post
There aren't any punching bags in the playoffs anymore. Two 8 seeds have reached the final in the last 7 years, one winning the Cup. There's not really any series where there isn't at least some reasonable chance that the underdog can win. Back in 1985 there wasn't the slightest chance in hell that the lowest playoff seed was going to reach the final, and it was considered shocking if they even won a round. Sure the Kings winning last year was a surprise, but could you imagine the Leafs or the Whalers winning a Cup in the 80's? You can't.

Post-cap has meant that there is almost nothing separating the 16 playoff teams. It's not uncommon to see 9 or 10 different teams mentioned as a possible finalist at the start of the playoffs. 12 different teams have taken up the 14 available finals positions since the cap. During the span of the Oilers dynasty, only five different teams made the final. The only real threat to the Oilers was Calgary, the other two series were a formality until the final. First round opponents like the 1986 Vancouver Canucks and sub-.500 semi-finalists such as the 1987 Red Wings simply don't exist anymore.
Your argument started out well but is now faltering. Presumably you missed the playoffs in 82. A sub .500 Nucks team riding King Brodeur makes it all the way to the finals only losing to the legendary Islander dynastic team. A team even the hot Oilers would lose to in similar or worse fashion a year later.
Meanwhile, back to 82, the Oilers lose to a deplorable Kings club that never discovered D but managed to be one better than us at timely scoring. kings were, wait for it, 8th and final place.

A year earlier an upstart brash Oiler team knocked off a powerhouse Habs club in straight games then gave the Islanders all they could handle.

In 91 an ordinary Minnesota North Stars team beats the defending SC champs (Oilers) and goes all the way to the final.

So what you're saying didn't ever happen did. Upstarts and upsets have always been part of hockey. You could try to argue they occurred with less regularity.

Fact of the matter is the Hawks are imploding for the 3rd year in a row because they never learned to really overcome adversity in the first place. Their cup win was too easy and disguised for them, what it usually takes.

Meanwhile, Kings are showing what a real championship club are made of. Night and Day between them and Blackhawks who have been hopeless in the playoffs ever since the cup win.

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05-24-2013, 10:47 AM
  #377
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haha Blackhawks always pissed me off so this is sweet.

But not sure what you mean. I don't like marginal calls on penalty shots called in playoffs. Whichever team benefits. Again maybe I'm out to lunch here but it was a tug to interfere with the shot. It wasn't completely hauling the guy down. Theres a threshold to this type of thing in the playoffs and the players and everybody knows it.

Presumably the ref knows it. I'm arguing status quo supporting what occurred.
It was more than a tug my god. It was just as effective as hauling the guy down.

It didn't reduce the scoring chance.. it completely removed it. That's when a penalty shot should be called.

That being said this is the NHL and reffing is a complete pandora's box. It was a bad call but on the other hand.. we should be used to that by now so who cares.

Chicago just doesn't have the will to take the game to the net to break Detroit's time and space removal game.

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05-24-2013, 10:58 AM
  #378
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It was more than a tug my god. It was just as effective as hauling the guy down.

It didn't reduce the scoring chance.. it completely removed it. That's when a penalty shot should be called.

That being said this is the NHL and reffing is a complete pandora's box. It was a bad call but on the other hand.. we should be used to that by now so who cares.

Chicago just doesn't have the will to take the game to the net to break Detroit's time and space removal game.
If he would've gotten a shot off I would've agreed with a simple penalty, but no shot on net is automatic penalty shot.

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05-24-2013, 12:06 PM
  #379
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This is Zetterberg and Datsyuk are two of my all time favorite players. They are "difference makers", if not on the scoring sheet then by shutting down the opponents top players.

I wouldn't say that the series is over though. Chicago still has a great team and it is still very possible that they manage to work themselves around Z, Dats and Howard.
Trust me, Datsyuk and Lidstrom are 2 of my all-time favorites. I know what it means to be a contributor off the score-sheet as well.

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05-24-2013, 12:13 PM
  #380
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Originally Posted by Lacaar View Post
It was more than a tug my god. It was just as effective as hauling the guy down.

It didn't reduce the scoring chance.. it completely removed it. That's when a penalty shot should be called.

That being said this is the NHL and reffing is a complete pandora's box. It was a bad call but on the other hand.. we should be used to that by now so who cares.

Chicago just doesn't have the will to take the game to the net to break Detroit's time and space removal game.
The sense I got is the Chicago forward went down willingly or lost his balance. But that he could've still made a play on net had he not done so.

Thats my take on a split second happening that the ref has to make the call on in realtime. He called it a penalty, I agree with the call. Not even the Blackhawks board mods are whining about this one and one mod in particular over there saying pretty much what I am is the Hawks didn't deserve to get redeemed by a penalty shot.

If you can't find a way to score in 60mins it detracts from the game imo to be arbitrarily awarded a penalty shot. I love soccer, but this is one of the key knocks on that game and that most people dislike.

I'm glad the game was decided on the ice by the teams which is the way imo it should be.

You can feel free to tell me I should have another opinion.

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05-24-2013, 12:15 PM
  #381
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No penalty shot but delay of game penalty no problem guys!


Question for the experts here: why would a team like SJ have an unbelievable (40%?) home PP rate in the playoffs but have a much lower PP %age on the road?

You'd think the conversion rate would be about the same; I could see the home team getting more PPs in general, but not a higher conversion rate.

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05-24-2013, 12:23 PM
  #382
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Your argument started out well but is now faltering. Presumably you missed the playoffs in 82. A sub .500 Nucks team riding King Brodeur makes it all the way to the finals only losing to the legendary Islander dynastic team. A team even the hot Oilers would lose to in similar or worse fashion a year later.
Meanwhile, back to 82, the Oilers lose to a deplorable Kings club that never discovered D but managed to be one better than us at timely scoring. kings were, wait for it, 8th and final place.

A year earlier an upstart brash Oiler team knocked off a powerhouse Habs club in straight games then gave the Islanders all they could handle.

In 91 an ordinary Minnesota North Stars team beats the defending SC champs (Oilers) and goes all the way to the final.

So what you're saying didn't ever happen did. Upstarts and upsets have always been part of hockey. You could try to argue they occurred with less regularity.

Fact of the matter is the Hawks are imploding for the 3rd year in a row because they never learned to really overcome adversity in the first place. Their cup win was too easy and disguised for them, what it usually takes.

Meanwhile, Kings are showing what a real championship club are made of. Night and Day between them and Blackhawks who have been hopeless in the playoffs ever since the cup win.
I said the upsets were "shocking", not "impossible". And shocking they were. The Kings beating the Oilers is still considered one of the biggest upsets of all time. Further to that, the Kings were eliminated the next round. No bottom seed reached a final in the 80's or even came close.

That '82 Canucks team was sub-.500, but here's a quirky little fact: They had home ice advantage in all three rounds leading up to the final. In other words, they didn't upset anybody, they were the favorite in all their matchups.

I'll give you the '91 North Stars, who are generally considered the most improbable finalist of all time. But if I may nitpick, we were discussing the 80's originally. Big upsets started to become more common by the 90's. Those North Stars were the first of many low seeds that reached the finals in the ensuing two decades as league parity began to shrink the gap between the top teams and the rest of the pack.

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05-24-2013, 12:44 PM
  #383
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Originally Posted by Kyle McMahon View Post
I said the upsets were "shocking", not "impossible". And shocking they were. The Kings beating the Oilers is still considered one of the biggest upsets of all time. Further to that, the Kings were eliminated the next round. No bottom seed reached a final in the 80's or even came close.

That '82 Canucks team was sub-.500, but here's a quirky little fact: They had home ice advantage in all three rounds leading up to the final. In other words, they didn't upset anybody, they were the favorite in all their matchups.

I'll give you the '91 North Stars, who are generally considered the most improbable finalist of all time. But if I may nitpick, we were discussing the 80's originally. Big upsets started to become more common by the 90's. Those North Stars were the first of many low seeds that reached the finals in the ensuing two decades as league parity began to shrink the gap between the top teams and the rest of the pack.
You stated this, Exactly:

Quote:
Back in 1985 there wasn't the slightest chance in hell that the lowest playoff seed was going to reach the final,
To which I responded that the 82 Nucks did. It would be specious of you to now suggest you were only talking about 1985 and only about worst possible playoff clubs.

That Nucks club was a more unlikely SC candidate than any club going to the dance these days.

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05-24-2013, 12:47 PM
  #384
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You stated this, Exactly:



To which I responded that the 82 Nucks did. It would be specious of you to now suggest you were only talking about 1985.
The 1982 Canucks were 2nd in the Smythe Division, and 4th in the Campbell Conference. No clue where you get the idea that they were the lowest seed. The lowest seed that season was the Kings, who "shockingly" upset the Oilers before getting easily beaten by the Canucks in Round 2.

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05-24-2013, 12:50 PM
  #385
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The 1982 Canucks were 2nd in the Smythe Division, and 4th in the Campbell Conference. No clue where you get the idea that they were the lowest seed. The lowest seed that season was the Kings, who "shockingly" upset the Oilers before getting easily beaten by the Canucks in Round 2.
I didn't say they were the lowest seed. I stated the Kings were the lowest seed. BOTH had substantial and significant playoffs that season.

Both were bad teams during the regular season.

In playoffs, different matter, anything could happen, just like always.

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05-24-2013, 12:55 PM
  #386
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I didn't say they were the lowest seed. I stated the Kings were the lowest seed. BOTH had substantial and significant playoffs that season.

Both were bad teams during the regular season.

In playoffs, different matter, anything could happen, just like always.
I said there was "no chance in hell" the lowest seed would reach a Cup final in 1985 ("1985" being used as a random year to represent the 80's era as a whole).

You responded "The 1982 Canucks did". Clearly implying that you thought they were the lowest seed.

They were not even close to the lowest seed, with the 4th best record in the conference as I pointed out.

The Canucks weren't that bad in the regular season. 12th overall, middle of the pack. The Wales was a lot stronger than the Campbell that season. The Oilers were the only elite team in the Campbell, and when they got upset the door to the final was open. History has painted them as some massive underdog that pulled off numerous upsets, yet in reality they had more points than all of their playoff opponents until the final.

And even though it's been demonstarted that the '82 Canucks weren't really that bad, it sort of proves my point that it was much rarer for an underdog to have success in the 80's dynasty era since a middle-of-the-pack Canucks team that was 2nd in their division was BY FAR the worst team to reach a final that decade. Middle-of-the-pack teams reach the finals constantly over the last 20 years.


Last edited by Kyle McMahon: 05-24-2013 at 01:05 PM.
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05-24-2013, 01:05 PM
  #387
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Originally Posted by Kyle McMahon View Post
I said there was "no chance in hell" the lowest seed would reach a Cup final in 1985 ("1985" being used as a random year to represent the 80's era as a whole).

You responded "The 1982 Canucks did". Clearly implying that you thought they were the lowest seed.

They were not even close to the lowest seed, with the 4th best record in the conference as I pointed out.
The kings, the lowest seed, did monumentally upset the Oilers. The Nucks, a bad club, made it all the way to the cup final.

Northstars, also a low seed made it all the way to the cup final and after beating the SC champs.

my responses were to your general notion that upsets of that magnitude were rare or inconceivable back then. That was my take from what you wrote. no biggy.

lets end this as it detracts from the thread.

My main point has been that the present day Kings look much more like a defending SC champ then the woeful Hawks ever have.


Finally, dynamic differences between 80's and now occur primarily on the basis of proportion of playoff positions allowed. In 82 this was 16/21 teams making the playoffs and with some bad ones in the mix. Now its 16/30, huge difference. The playoff proportion alone changes things. Meaning that some of the underdog achievements back then are even loftier considering.


Last edited by Replacement: 05-24-2013 at 01:13 PM.
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05-24-2013, 01:26 PM
  #388
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Finally, dynamic differences between 80's and now occur primarily on the basis of proportion of playoff positions allowed. In 82 this was 16/21 teams making the playoffs and with some bad ones in the mix. Now its 16/30, huge difference. The playoff proportion alone changes things. Meaning that some of the underdog achievements back then are even loftier considering.
Exactly, terrible teams could make the playoffs back then, and they were often punching bags for the higher seeds. Every once in a while one pulled off a massive upset like the Kings in 82. Since today's low seeds (the 7's and 8's) are probably the equivalent of 9th-11th overall teams of the 80's in terms of relative strength, those low seeds winning a round or even reaching the final is much more common and far less surprising today.

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05-24-2013, 02:32 PM
  #389
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So Prendergast was fired today by Hockey Canada.

Anybody surprised?

Wonder if MacT will hire him again...........

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05-24-2013, 02:48 PM
  #390
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So Prendergast was fired today by Hockey Canada.

Anybody surprised?

Wonder if MacT will hire him again...........
I mentioned this earlier this week. Give it time.

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05-24-2013, 05:31 PM
  #391
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So Prendergast was fired today by Hockey Canada.

Anybody surprised?

Wonder if MacT will hire him again...........
why, did mact hire him in the first place?

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05-24-2013, 06:53 PM
  #392
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How was that considered inconclusive?

(PIT/OTT game)

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05-24-2013, 06:54 PM
  #393
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I'm no Senators fan but that makes me so bloody angry. Distinct kicking motion. The NHL continues to display blatant favoritism towards specific teams.

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05-24-2013, 06:56 PM
  #394
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I'm no Senators fan but that makes me so bloody angry. Distinct kicking motion. The NHL continues to display blatant favoritism towards specific teams.
I generally laugh at the conspiracy theories and butt hurt fans over bad reffing. But the incompitence is getting mighty suspicious.

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05-24-2013, 08:08 PM
  #395
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Well, I think that I'm done with the NHL playoffs for this year. There's very little intrigue and besides the Kings/Sharks series the rest of the match-ups in the second round have been painfully one-sided. It's just not very fun to watch one team assert their will on another.

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05-24-2013, 09:22 PM
  #396
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Kevin Prendergast gets fired by HC.

Hahah i called that when he got hired. Hes horrible

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05-24-2013, 10:38 PM
  #397
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The pens are really hitting their stride at the moment they look unstoppable but Boston can give them trouble and if they do get past boston whoever they face from the west will be a lot of trouble (because in the west we play defense lol) east was predictor pens bruins final west is still up in the air

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Kevin Prendergast gets fired by HC.

Hahah i called that when he got hired. Hes horrible
I might not be thinking straight but remind me again who is he

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05-24-2013, 11:44 PM
  #398
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I might not be thinking straight but remind me again who is he
Joined the Oilers in 1990 and was the head scout from 2000-07 before getting promoted to Assistant GM when Howson left for Columbus. In April 2010, after returning from a London/Kitchener game with Tambellini and another scout, he was fired by Tambellini in their hotel lobby.

He also had a decent moustache.

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05-24-2013, 11:44 PM
  #399
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Pens in 5.

Had this one nailed.


Pesky Sens? pfffft

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05-25-2013, 12:05 AM
  #400
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Joined the Oilers in 1990 and was the head scout from 2000-07 before getting promoted to Assistant GM when Howson left for Columbus. In April 2010, after returning from a London/Kitchener game with Tambellini and another scout, he was fired by Tambellini in their hotel lobby.

He also had a decent moustache.
Ah I see, thank you for the info

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