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2013-14 Flyers Overhaul Part II

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Old
05-24-2013, 07:40 PM
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DecadesofFutility View Post
They better do something drastic or the defense is going to suck even worse this year.

Mezzaros will get injured again, and Coburn will continue his lackluster play.
Grossman will be out with his concussion for a long time.
The team will be unable to get the puck out of their defensive zone.

Coots will continue his offensive slump until he is untradeable.
They need to trade Coots or Laughton for a PMD.
Yandle if possible or another younger PMD.

If they do not fix this defense, your looking at a top 5 pick in Philly.
Welcome to the site. Glad to see you bringing some ray of light too the forum.

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05-24-2013, 07:44 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
Personally, I think Meszaros is going to rebound this year. He had two bad years with injuries, and really, it was about a season and a half when it comes down to it. Part of the problem with Meszaros is that I think he was rushed back too soon from back surgery. The Achilles and shoulder injuries were fluke injuries.

The Flyers should be more concerned about how drastically Coburn crapped the bed last year with his play. Some will blame it on the shortened season, but fact is, when Coburn was needed, he faltered and faltered badly. I honestly don't know if the coaching staff and management have faith in him anymore.
Whoa, what an overly harsh indictment. This is the first time Coburn has let the team down when they needed him. At every other point in his tenure with the Flyers he has been the very best version of himself at the most crucial times. Spring of 2011 and all of the 2011-2012 season he was a horse. 2012-2013 his game finally found some consistency and his speed and range carried his pairing, allowing Grossmann's skills to shine in spite of his average speed. The guy has half a rough season and you're ready to quit on him. He's earned a longer leash than you're giving him, I feel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LegionOfDoom91 View Post
The defense isn't as bad as you make it out to be. It needs a bit of an upgrade but there's still some pieces to work with back there. If we had a goalie that could stop a beach ball it might actually be a decent group.

Besides this team is a boarderline playoff team next year. I rather not sacrifice our youth just to get knocked out in the 2nd instead of the 1st.
This is kind of how I feel about them too. I haven't had a chance to really sit down and take in a whole lot of games with a sharp eye this year, so it's tough for me to pinpoint why they've been less than the sum of their parts so far (in terms of specific x's and o's tendencies). Perhaps getting that one big name player will move everyone else down a position on the depth chart and put them in positions to succeed again.

I doubt that is the best solution though. When I watch this team play defense it's not that they're getting handled in the one-on-one battles, or failing to make plays consistently (i.e. the personnel doesn't suck), it's a system issue. The coverages in zone just look sloppy. Laviolette needs to stray a bit from his attack first instincts and see to it that they get more help from the forwards. When your goalie is weakish there's really no other choice.

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05-24-2013, 07:46 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coffe View Post
Do not trade Couturier!



That is all.
I agree. He's going to break out eventually, and I want that to happen in Philly, not some other city.

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05-24-2013, 07:48 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
Personally, I think Meszaros is going to rebound this year. He had two bad years with injuries, and really, it was about a season and a half when it comes down to it. Part of the problem with Meszaros is that I think he was rushed back too soon from back surgery. The Achilles and shoulder injuries were fluke injuries.

The Flyers should be more concerned about how drastically Coburn crapped the bed last year with his play. Some will blame it on the shortened season, but fact is, when Coburn was needed, he faltered and faltered badly. I honestly don't know if the coaching staff and management have faith in him anymore.

As for Grossmann, the concussion is really worrisome because his balance has been affected. If he still hasn't recovered sufficiently by training camp, I think it may be the last time we see Grossmann in a Philadelphia uniform.

I also don't think that scrambling and blowing things up by trading Couturier, Laughton or the Flyers 1st round pick this year is the correct fix. Blowing things up and trading picks and players is something they've pretty much done year in and year out. They need to relax and let the younger players take their lumps and earn their stripes. Panicking and moving every young player out is not the effective long term solution. Build from the draft, be smart in signing free agents, and making smart trades that won't set the team back is the way to do things.
Great minds think alike. Coburn is a vet I would move if need be. The only issue I have with Mez is that he seems to not handle pain all that well. But I to hope he rebounds and heals up. The Flyers just need to stay the course.

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05-24-2013, 07:58 PM
  #30
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I don't think pain is what Mez can't handle. It's playing with an injury that isn't fully healed that he knows could be aggravated at any time by even fairly minor contact.

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05-24-2013, 08:04 PM
  #31
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I'd say to just give Coburn another season to see if this season was a fluke or not.

How about this without changing too much:

CAPGEEK.COM USER GENERATED ROSTER
My Custom Lineup
FORWARDS
Scott Hartnell ($4.750m) / Claude Giroux ($3.750m) / Jakub Voracek ($4.250m)
Brayden Schenn ($3.110m) / Sean Couturier ($1.375m) / Wayne Simmonds ($3.975m)
Simon Gagne ($2.000m) / Scott Laughton ($1.107m) / Matt Read ($0.900m)
Zac Rinaldo ($0.750m) / Maxime Talbot ($1.750m) / Tye McGinn ($0.775m)
Jay Rosehill ($0.675m) / Jason Akeson ($0.900m) /
DEFENSEMEN
Kimmo Timonen ($6.000m) / Luke Schenn ($3.600m)
Braydon Coburn ($4.500m) / Nicklas Grossmann ($3.500m)
Andrej Meszaros ($4.000m) / Erik Gustafsson ($1.250m)
Bruno Gervais ($0.825m) /
Chris Pronger ($4.941m) /
GOALTENDERS
Ilya Bryzgalov ($5.667m)
Steve Mason ($1.500m)
OTHER
Buyout: Oskars Bartulis ($0.100m)
Buyout: Danny Briere ($0.000m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled with the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $65,949,762; BONUSES: $2,960,000
CAP SPACE (24-man roster): $1,310,238

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Old
05-24-2013, 08:19 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SolidSnakeUS View Post
I'd say to just give Coburn another season to see if this season was a fluke or not.

How about this without changing too much:

CAPGEEK.COM USER GENERATED ROSTER
My Custom Lineup
FORWARDS
Scott Hartnell ($4.750m) / Claude Giroux ($3.750m) / Jakub Voracek ($4.250m)
Brayden Schenn ($3.110m) / Sean Couturier ($1.375m) / Wayne Simmonds ($3.975m)
Simon Gagne ($2.000m) / Scott Laughton ($1.107m) / Matt Read ($0.900m)
Zac Rinaldo ($0.750m) / Maxime Talbot ($1.750m) / Tye McGinn ($0.775m)
Jay Rosehill ($0.675m) / Jason Akeson ($0.900m) /
DEFENSEMEN
Kimmo Timonen ($6.000m) / Luke Schenn ($3.600m)
Braydon Coburn ($4.500m) / Nicklas Grossmann ($3.500m)
Andrej Meszaros ($4.000m) / Erik Gustafsson ($1.250m)
Bruno Gervais ($0.825m) /
Chris Pronger ($4.941m) /
GOALTENDERS
Ilya Bryzgalov ($5.667m)
Steve Mason ($1.500m)
OTHER
Buyout: Oskars Bartulis ($0.100m)
Buyout: Danny Briere ($0.000m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled with the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $65,949,762; BONUSES: $2,960,000
CAP SPACE (24-man roster): $1,310,238
Do you honestly think this organization is going to go into next season after a year of missing the playoffs having made no significant moves? Do you know who the owner and gm are?

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Old
05-24-2013, 08:30 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Giroux tha Damaja View Post
This is kind of how I feel about them too. I haven't had a chance to really sit down and take in a whole lot of games with a sharp eye this year, so it's tough for me to pinpoint why they've been less than the sum of their parts so far (in terms of specific x's and o's tendencies). Perhaps getting that one big name player will move everyone else down a position on the depth chart and put them in positions to succeed again.

I doubt that is the best solution though. When I watch this team play defense it's not that they're getting handled in the one-on-one battles, or failing to make plays consistently (i.e. the personnel doesn't suck), it's a system issue. The coverages in zone just look sloppy. Laviolette needs to stray a bit from his attack first instincts and see to it that they get more help from the forwards. When your goalie is weakish there's really no other choice.
Yeah people on here trash the defense as a whole and then go on to talk about how good Timonen, Schenn, Grossmann, and Gus were this year. I don't get it.

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05-24-2013, 08:44 PM
  #34
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The reality is that this team isn't a cup contender next year and there is no player available, like Weber, that will make them so. Elder and Yandle are complimentary defenseman that you add as a final piece to get you over the hump, not instantly make you ready to compete against the Kings, Blackhawks, and Bruins of the world. Not to mention the Flyers nor their prospect pool is deep enough to make such a trade and not downgrade the team anther position. The best option IMO is to see what they can get for Read or as UFAs to improve the defense and let the kids mature another year.

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05-24-2013, 09:40 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Curufinwe View Post
I don't think pain is what Mez can't handle. It's playing with an injury that isn't fully healed that he knows could be aggravated at any time by even fairly minor contact.
Tochett commented on his willingness and ability to play hurt for Tampa when he was on the Post Game Live broadcasts a couple years ago. If Tochett thinks you're tough, that's good enough for me. Like you, and likely everyone, I just wish he could stay healthy. The only time in the last few years he's gotten to play a full season healthy was his first here, and he won the award as our best defenseman that year. I honestly think he has #1 defenseman skillset, at least physically. He skates and hits on that level, he shoots and passes the puck with the skill of a #1. His hockey sense is decent. He just can't stay healthy and settle into a groove.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Psuhockey View Post
The reality is that this team isn't a cup contender next year and there is no player available, like Weber, that will make them so. Elder and Yandle are complimentary defenseman that you add as a final piece to get you over the hump, not instantly make you ready to compete against the Kings, Blackhawks, and Bruins of the world. Not to mention the Flyers nor their prospect pool is deep enough to make such a trade and not downgrade the team anther position. The best option IMO is to see what they can get for Read or as UFAs to improve the defense and let the kids mature another year.
I agree. I think next Summer is the one where you decide what you're doing. What needs to happen to get this team better can happen with this roster. We had a rough year with injuries at the position we could least tolerate it (and I thought our D call-ups were surprisingly competent). We had no back up goalie so we ran our average starter into the ground until he sucked ass. Let's give this roster another go next year with some time to heal up and some better-but-still-average depth in goal.

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Old
05-24-2013, 10:51 PM
  #36
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I guess your fine wasting 3-5 more years, because without a real
any more offensive defensemen or a good PMD, we are not winning any cup.

Why are we waiting for offensive players to develop instead of developing the defense first.
And we will not have any decent defensive prospects because we fail to draft any.

This is backwards and counter intuitive to winning anything.

We could score 4 goals a game and lose 5-4 with what we will have left after next year when Timmo retires.

We need to focus on defense and stop trying to stockpile offensive talent.

Unless we change our team building plan Giroux will retire like countless other Flyers B4 without a cup.

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05-24-2013, 10:54 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DecadesofFutility View Post
I guess your fine wasting 3-5 more years, because without a real
any more offensive defensemen or a good PMD, we are not winning any cup.
What choice is there? I don't see anybody lining up to trade 25 yr old #1D men.

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05-25-2013, 12:01 AM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DecadesofFutility View Post
I guess your fine wasting 3-5 more years, because without a realvany more offensive defensemen or a good PMD, we are not winning any cup.
We also aren't winning any cup with out better goal tending. Nor are we winning any cup if we deplete the forward corp excessively. It's not as simple as "get talented D-men, win a cup" (and I'm sure you know that). You wouldn't cut off your nose to get rid of a zit, and I'm not in favor of trading what it would likely take to get a young #1 defense man.

Great offenses need remarkable talent. Great defenses often have merely sufficient talent but remarkable discipline, experience and hockey sense. Our defense has enough talent to win. They need time together, healthy. Perhaps some more forward help, and definitely a tighter system (or at least more time together in the present system).

Who is out there that you think we are going to get on defense right now that makes this team better over the next four years (after we give up what it takes to get them)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DecadesofFutility View Post
Why are we waiting for offensive players to develop instead of developing the defense first. And we will not have any decent defensive prospects because we fail to draft any.
We don't have any blue chippers. We drafted Sbisa and traded him for Pronger, which looked genius for a year and half there. We drafted Gus, who looks like he'll be a player. We drafted Lauridsen late, who also looks like he'll be a player. We have also had several other call-ups perform well over the last two years Marshall (who's gone now), Bourdon and Manning come to mind. There is some depth there, just no sizzle, no future all-star.

And the Flyers forward heavy draft approach is entirely justifiable when you consider the aforementioned point on the nature of good defense. Look at the hit-or-miss nature of drafting super talented defense prospects versus forwards. Forwards are just less volatile gambles. The nature of the forward position is much more about physical gifts and because of this two things are true: (1) forwards peak much earlier in their career when they've got some experience and their athleticism hasn't yet started to erode (read: sooner after you draft them); (2) it's a lot easier to predict a 17 year old forwards NHL future than a 17 year old defensman's.

Defense is a more cerebral position and forecasting individuals' success is more of a crap shoot. Look at Rafalski and Timonen. Nobody would've thought they'd be amazing NHL defensemen when they were 18. So why spend a pick on a defenseman that could put it all together or could be a talented bust, when there are sure thing forwards available early in the draft? As I noted before the Flyers have been doing alright in the later rounds (and Sbisa's not bad). And since it takes defensemen much longer to round into peak form (because the position is much more about experience), you're more likely to not even have them during their peak years (after they're 27). My personal opinion is that I would rarely draft D early while there were still extremely talented forwards available (unless we're talking about a situation where you sit down to interview a Seth Jones type and just blown away by their intelligence in addition to their physical skills).


Quote:
Originally Posted by DecadesofFutility View Post
This is backwards and counter intuitive to winning anything.

We could score 4 goals a game and lose 5-4 with what we will have left after next year when Timmo retires.

We need to focus on defense and stop trying to stockpile offensive talent.

Unless we change our team building plan Giroux will retire like countless other Flyers B4 without a cup.
Meh, this team was a rat's ass hair away from winning a cup a couple years ago with no goalies. We finally hit a home run with a goalie and then traded him away. You wanna see where management needs to stop sucking, there's your fix.

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Old
05-25-2013, 12:02 AM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DecadesofFutility View Post
I guess your fine wasting 3-5 more years, because without a real
any more offensive defensemen or a good PMD, we are not winning any cup.


Why are we waiting for offensive players to develop instead of developing the defense first.
And we will not have any decent defensive prospects because we fail to draft any.

This is backwards and counter intuitive to winning anything.

We could score 4 goals a game and lose 5-4 with what we will have left after next year when Timmo retires.

We need to focus on defense and stop trying to stockpile offensive talent.

Unless we change our team building plan Giroux will retire like countless other Flyers B4 without a cup.
These two statements kind of contradict themselves. Do you want more offense or more defense?

I think the solution to your problem would be getting a good goalie.


Last edited by LegionOfDoom91: 05-25-2013 at 12:09 AM.
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05-25-2013, 02:33 AM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SolidSnakeUS View Post
I'd say to just give Coburn another season to see if this season was a fluke or not.

How about this without changing too much:

CAPGEEK.COM USER GENERATED ROSTER
My Custom Lineup
FORWARDS
Scott Hartnell ($4.750m) / Claude Giroux ($3.750m) / Jakub Voracek ($4.250m)
Brayden Schenn ($3.110m) / Sean Couturier ($1.375m) / Wayne Simmonds ($3.975m)
Simon Gagne ($2.000m) / Scott Laughton ($1.107m) / Matt Read ($0.900m)
Zac Rinaldo ($0.750m) / Maxime Talbot ($1.750m) / Tye McGinn ($0.775m)
Jay Rosehill ($0.675m) / Jason Akeson ($0.900m) /
DEFENSEMEN
Kimmo Timonen ($6.000m) / Luke Schenn ($3.600m)
Braydon Coburn ($4.500m) / Nicklas Grossmann ($3.500m)
Andrej Meszaros ($4.000m) / Erik Gustafsson ($1.250m)
Bruno Gervais ($0.825m) /
Chris Pronger ($4.941m) /
GOALTENDERS
Ilya Bryzgalov ($5.667m)
Steve Mason ($1.500m)
OTHER
Buyout: Oskars Bartulis ($0.100m)
Buyout: Danny Briere ($0.000m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled with the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $65,949,762; BONUSES: $2,960,000
CAP SPACE (24-man roster): $1,310,238
Lots of young kids on this roster but with Pronger on LTIR Homer has $6.25 mil to play with! I guess the question is who is the best person to spend it on?
Looking at the UFA's other then Horton there is not much available. (And I am not sure he is a fit).


Last edited by OzFlyer: 05-25-2013 at 04:17 AM.
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Old
05-25-2013, 05:54 AM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by achdumeingute View Post
What choice is there? I don't see anybody lining up to trade 25 yr old #1D men.
They might if your willing to overpay for one.
Which I am since we do not feel the need to draft any ever.
Even though we had opportunities to do so when we got the picks for
Richards and Carter.
Instead we draft centers like always. Stupid. Insane.
This is why we can not compete with the better team in the league.

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05-25-2013, 06:09 AM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LegionOfDoom91 View Post
These two statements kind of contradict themselves. Do you want more offense or more defense?

I think the solution to your problem would be getting a good goalie.

Sorry if my comments were a bit confusing or seemed contradictory.
I want a offensive PMD because I feel our defensive short comings are directly tied to
lack of skill moving the puck out of our zone.

I want better defense which mean keeping the puck in the offensive zone,
through better puck movement by defensemen.


Our defense seems unable or unwilling to skate the puck out on a consistant basis.
My guess is that they try to shoot the puck out do to lack confidence or skill.
We need to balance the defensive end with PMD so we can keep the puck in the offensive end.

A better goalie would also help make our defense better.
But a better defense would make our goalie better as well.
I think both are at fault for the poor goals against that we earned last year.
And I am in favor of replacing Bryz, due to poor play vs. compensation.

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05-25-2013, 06:47 AM
  #43
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[Giroux tha Damaja;66569467]We also aren't winning any cup with out better goal tending. Nor are we winning any cup if we deplete the forward corp excessively. It's not as simple as "get talented D-men, win a cup" (and I'm sure you know that). You wouldn't cut off your nose to get rid of a zit, and I'm not in favor of trading what it would likely take to get a young #1 defense man.

Then be ready to be good enough to get to playoffs and lose.
Thats really your options, you may not want to believe it but that how it is.

[Giroux tha Damaja;66569467]
Great offenses need remarkable talent. Great defenses often have merely sufficient talent but remarkable discipline, experience and hockey sense. Our defense has enough talent to win. They need time together, healthy. Perhaps some more forward help, and definitely a tighter system (or at least more time together in the present system).

We have seen the best this defense can be in our previous Cup run.
This defense overachieved that season. It is overrated.

[Giroux tha Damaja;66569467]
Who is out there that you think we are going to get on defense right now that makes this team better over the next four years (after we give up what it takes to get them)?

I would trade for Yandle, Shattenkirk, Hamilton or any good PMD.
We cannot expect to run LAVI's offense without a better PMD.


[Giroux tha Damaja;66569467] We don't have any blue chippers.

Not my fault thats Holmgren!
We would not have wasted 2 years of development time for a blue chip defenseman if we had drafted one when Richards and Carter were traded.

[Giroux tha Damaja;66569467] We drafted Sbisa and traded him for Pronger, which looked genius for a year and half there. We drafted Gus, who looks like he'll be a player.

Gustafsson is not a better player than Carle, who we did not want and campaigned to get out of town.

[Giroux tha Damaja;66569467] We drafted Lauridsen late, who also looks like he'll be a player.

Adding more Lauridsen(s) to a defensive minded defense corp will not make this defense better.

[QUOTE=Giroux tha Damaja;66569467] We have also had several other call-ups perform well over the last two years Marshall (who's gone now), Bourdon and Manning come to mind. There is some depth there, just no sizzle, no future all-star.

Just 6 or seventh defenseman at best.

[QUOTE=Giroux tha Damaja;66569467]
And the Flyers forward heavy draft approach is entirely justifiable when you consider the aforementioned point on the nature of good defense. Look at the hit-or-miss nature of drafting super talented defense prospects versus forwards. Forwards are just less volatile gambles. The nature of the forward position is much more about physical gifts and because of this two things are true: (1) forwards peak much earlier in their career when they've got some experience and their athleticism hasn't yet started to erode (read: sooner after you draft them); (2) it's a lot easier to predict a 17 year old forwards NHL future than a 17 year old defensman's.

Defense is a more cerebral position and forecasting individuals' success is more of a crap shoot. Look at Rafalski and Timonen. Nobody would've thought they'd be amazing NHL defensemen when they were 18. So why spend a pick on a defenseman that could put it all together or could be a talented bust, when there are sure thing forwards available early in the draft? As I noted before the Flyers have been doing alright in the later rounds (and Sbisa's not bad). And since it takes defensemen much longer to round into peak form (because the position is much more about experience), you're more likely to not even have them during their peak years (after they're 27). My personal opinion is that I would rarely draft D early while there were still extremely talented forwards available (unless we're talking about a situation where you sit down to interview a Seth Jones type and just blown away by their intelligence in addition to their physical skills).

Hoping to sign others already developed defensemen is an iffy proposition at best.
See last off season, see Shea Webber (as well).
To get a blue chipper defenseman you either draft and wait or trade away prime assets. Since we do not draft defensemen , I guess I will trade away top picks for one.

[Giroux tha Damaja;66569467]
Meh, this team was a rat's ass hair away from winning a cup a couple years ago with no goalies.

We got lucky getting to cup final, without a real defensive overhaul mediocrity is where we are with this defense. Sorry sugarcoating our predicament does not make it easier to swallow.


Last edited by DecadesofFutility: 05-25-2013 at 07:06 AM. Reason: More Clarity
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05-25-2013, 07:58 AM
  #44
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The Flyers drafted 4 defensemen last year and added Mark Alt before the start of the season. Gostibehere played in the world juniors, making the US team at its strongest position. Reese Willcox played well his freshman year after being one of the better puck movers at the Flyers prospect camp. Vasiliev made the KHL at the end of the year, which is very impressive for a defenseman so young. Mark Alt was very good at the end of the AHL season and received an unsolicited compliment by a long time NHL vet saying his was going to be special. Throw is Gus, who played great to end the NHL season and put on an even more impressive performance at the World Campionships as Sweden, a country for which the World Championships matter, ice time leader. He wasn't on the ice for an even strength goal.

The Flyers have started to draft and develop defensemen but it takes time. Just cause these guys haven't been blessed by the ranking services, doesn't mean squat when it comes to defensemen. Dan Girardi wasn't ranked. Mark Giordano wasn't ranked. Timonen was too small. Chara was a project and wasn't a number 1 defensemen like his partner, Redding, at the age of 29, until of course he was. Finally, if defensemen were so important to wining the cup, enough to blow up your team to get, Nashville's dynasty must have ended last year; they had two number 1 defensemen in Weber and Suter. Or wait they never got out the 2nd round? Must have been the goalies fault.

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05-25-2013, 12:28 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DecadesofFutility View Post
Then be ready to be good enough to get to playoffs and lose.
Thats really your options, you may not want to believe it but that how it is.
I am ready for that. That is what happens to most teams that make the play offs, even legit contenders.

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We have seen the best this defense can be in our previous Cup run.
This defense overachieved that season. It is overrated.
This defense has two players on it left from our cup run, Coburn and Timonen. Pronger's gone, Carles's gone. Krajicek, Parent and Bartulis are gone. This isn't the same defense. It's also not over rated. They stunk last year and we know it.

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I would trade for Yandle, Shattenkirk, Hamilton or any good PMD.
We cannot expect to run LAVI's offense without a better PMD.
Cool wishlist, bro. Now who should we target that we can actually get?

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Not my fault thats Holmgren!
We would not have wasted 2 years of development time for a blue chip defenseman if we had drafted one when Richards and Carter were traded.
So you would've preferred them to draft Hamilton over Couturier that year? Fair enough, that was what I wanted too. Looking at what Couturier has done since hes been here though, I'm glad they took him.

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Gustafsson is not a better player than Carle, who we did not want and campaigned to get out of town.
The Gustafsson/Carle comparison is a red herring. What does that have to do with anything? Also, I wouldn't be surprised if Gustafsson ends up being the better player as early as next year (but probably not until 2014-2015).

I actually defended Carle a lot and made a post earlier in the season looking at how he was doing in Tampa versus how we were doing. I like Carle, but he cashed in. I'm glad he cashed in and I'm glad it wasn't here.

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Adding more Lauridsen(s) to a defensive minded defense corp will not make this defense better.
Okay, well what about Gustafsson? Is he an offensive enough D prospect for you? Good puck moving defensemen don't exactly grow on trees. Are they supposed to just draft ****** prospects to suit team needs? No, you take the best guy available (I can get into why I think that's always the best approach if you want me to). Lauridsen is a 7th round pick who ended up getting NHL time and not sucking two years after being drafted. It doesn't realistically get better than that.

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Just 6 or seventh defenseman at best.
That remains to be seen. But they're not first pairing guys most likely, I'll concede that.

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Originally Posted by DecadesofFutility View Post
Hoping to sign others already developed defensemen is an iffy proposition at best.
See last off season, see Shea Webber (as well).
To get a blue chipper defenseman you either draft and wait or trade away prime assets. Since we do not draft defensemen , I guess I will trade away top picks for one.
I'm fine with trading away a top pick for a defenseman, just not Couturier. I actually think that's probably the route they're eventually going to go once Kimmo's departure forces their hand. Also, fwiw we do daft defensemen, just not as high as you'd like.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DecadesofFutility View Post
We got lucky getting to cup final, without a real defensive overhaul mediocrity is where we are with this defense. Sorry sugarcoating our predicament does not make it easier to swallow.
Our defense has what it takes to be much better than mediocre right now. They're all big except Kimmo an Gus who are really good skaters. None of them are uselessly slow and amng the big guys Coburn and Mesz can really move. They have decent hands as a group. There's talent there to work with. We could go out and get Yandle and it's not going to fix what ails this group.

Ilya Bryzgalov is mediocre and overworked. You fix that issue by getting a decent back-up before you go crazy and go after a big name guy.

The defense is sloppy. There is no cohesive defensive concept as far as I can tell, and if there is they need to get better and execute it more tightly as a group.

Once you fix those two problems. If you look at the talent you have and see that they're executing the system as well as they can but are just over matched, then you go get them some more talent to help. I don't feel like that's the case. At no time last year did I look at this D and say, "boy they're playing as well as they can as a unit, they're just not good enough".

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05-25-2013, 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Giroux tha Damaja View Post
I am ready for that. That is what happens to most teams that make the play offs, even legit contenders.



This defense has two players on it left from our cup run, Coburn and Timonen. Pronger's gone, Carles's gone. Krajicek, Parent and Bartulis are gone. This isn't the same defense. It's also not over rated. They stunk last year and we know it.



Cool wishlist, bro. Now who should we target that we can actually get?



So you would've preferred them to draft Hamilton over Couturier that year? Fair enough, that was what I wanted too. Looking at what Couturier has done since hes been here though, I'm glad they took him.



The Gustafsson/Carle comparison is a red herring. What does that have to do with anything? Also, I wouldn't be surprised if Gustafsson ends up being the better player as early as next year (but probably not until 2014-2015).

I actually defended Carle a lot and made a post earlier in the season looking at how he was doing in Tampa versus how we were doing. I like Carle, but he cashed in. I'm glad he cashed in and I'm glad it wasn't here.



Okay, well what about Gustafsson? Is he an offensive enough D prospect for you? Good puck moving defensemen don't exactly grow on trees. Are they supposed to just draft ****** prospects to suit team needs? No, you take the best guy available (I can get into why I think that's always the best approach if you want me to). Lauridsen is a 7th round pick who ended up getting NHL time and not sucking two years after being drafted. It doesn't realistically get better than that.



That remains to be seen. But they're not first pairing guys most likely, I'll concede that.



I'm fine with trading away a top pick for a defenseman, just not Couturier. I actually think that's probably the route they're eventually going to go once Kimmo's departure forces their hand. Also, fwiw we do daft defensemen, just not as high as you'd like.



Our defense has what it takes to be much better than mediocre right now. They're all big except Kimmo an Gus who are really good skaters. None of them are uselessly slow and amng the big guys Coburn and Mesz can really move. They have decent hands as a group. There's talent there to work with. We could go out and get Yandle and it's not going to fix what ails this group.

Ilya Bryzgalov is mediocre and overworked. You fix that issue by getting a decent back-up before you go crazy and go after a big name guy.

The defense is sloppy. There is no cohesive defensive concept as far as I can tell, and if there is they need to get better and execute it more tightly as a group.

Once you fix those two problems. If you look at the talent you have and see that they're executing the system as well as they can but are just over matched, then you go get them some more talent to help. I don't feel like that's the case. At no time last year did I look at this D and say, "boy they're playing as well as they can as a unit, they're just not good enough".
I don't think...this guy...knows what he's talking about.

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05-25-2013, 01:15 PM
  #47
DecadesofFutility
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Our defense is offensively challanged and injured.
Mezzaros is one good check from being injured again and its LTIR for the season.
Timmo is our only reliable offensive defenseman, and will retire end of next season.
Gustafsson is fine as the 5th defenseman only.
Grossman has concussion issues and is a defensive defenseman only.
This group is not skilled enough to run this fast break offense that LAVI wants to run.

So we have three options
1) get a good PMD so we can run the offense correctly
2) fire LAVI and institute a trap based defense
3) ignore the insanity and continue like nothing is wrong
and try for another top 10 pick.

I would have kept Carle and traded Coburn.
Coburn is just another defensive defenseman like all the rest we draft.

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05-25-2013, 01:19 PM
  #48
TheLegendkiller
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DecadesofFutility View Post
Our defense is offensively challanged and injured.
Mezzaros is one good check from being injured again and its LTIR for the season.
Timmo is our only reliable offensive defenseman, and will retire end of next season.
Gustafsson is fine as the 5th defenseman only.
Grossman has concussion issues and is a defensive defenseman only.
This group is not skilled enough to run this fast break offense that LAVI wants to run.

So we have three options
1) get a good PMD so we can run the offense correctly
2) fire LAVI and institute a trap based defense
3) ignore the insanity and continue like nothing is wrong
and try for another top 10 pick.

I would have kept Carle and traded Coburn.
Coburn is just another defensive defenseman like all the rest we draft.
We know already.

And no to keeping Carle. Matt Carle blows dick and Tampa fans are already mad that they're paying him 5 million. Plus we had Coburn before we traded for Schenn. So at the time we only had 2 defensive defensemen.


To everybody else; I'm pretty sure the roster up front if getting bigger. Bigger forwards and all that.

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05-25-2013, 01:25 PM
  #49
LegionOfDoom91
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We know already.

And no to keeping Carle. Matt Carle blows dick and Tampa fans are already mad that they're paying him 5 million. Plus we had Coburn before we traded for Schenn. So at the time we only had 2 defensive defensemen.


To everybody else; I'm pretty sure the roster up front if getting bigger. Bigger forwards and all that.
You have to give him or her credit though for being very persistent.

Yup, no thanks to Carle at $5.5M or whatever it is.

That is true and something that gets overlooked around here. We definitely could use some size on the wings.


Last edited by LegionOfDoom91: 05-25-2013 at 02:16 PM.
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05-25-2013, 01:28 PM
  #50
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I don't think...this guy...knows what he's talking about.
You disagree with someone. He must have no idea what he's talking about, right?

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