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ATD2013 Final: Pittsburgh AC vs. Montreal Canadiens

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05-20-2013, 06:27 PM
  #51
Rob Scuderi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
You don't understand how guys like Broadbent and Gillies are better equipped than Larmer to handle physical defensemen along the boards?! Really? When we use the term "grit" in the ATD, two things are meant: size/power and the willingness to use it. Steve Larmer was a very willing scrapper in the NHL. He was not a particularly powerful one.
Yes I understand how the two toughest of your group are tougher than Larmer. I don't understand how you you think the entire group is.

I'm not using any ATD buzzwords, I'm pointing to what scouting reports, opponents, and coaches had to say about him.

Quote:
I don't see the need for this. As far as I know, neither Schriner nor Jackson was much defensively. In case anyone still has the wrong idea about Schriner's defense:

http://nitzyshockeyden.blogspot.de/2...angers-of.html



Shades of Bill Cowley in that quote, with Schriner sarcastically referring to the fact that he rarely backchecked. I gather that Jackson wasn't much of a backchecker, either. The difference in their intangibles seems to lie in the fact that Jackson was an aggressive, physical player, while Schriner was likely something of a softie.
Indeed, now why is it you actually provided evidence for something I've said all draft?

You aren't referring to all-star votes to try to judge their defense, why are you leaping to use it for a physical game?

he limited written about his physicality called him big and strong. The idea that he was something of a softie doesn't exist outside of your theory. If you want to "prove" something to me, this would be the place I would be most interested.

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05-20-2013, 06:40 PM
  #52
Rob Scuderi
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Montreal's forechecking
With Gorman at the helm Montreal's game stresses forechecking. Successful possessions with Montreal's forwards cycling will cause my team problems. Pittsburgh's much more dangerous with the puck on our sticks rather than defending. To support this I tried to invest in puckmoving defenseman and a goalie who could move the puck. To be successful in this series Pittsburgh will rely on our transition abilities in attempts to prevent Montreal from setting up shop.

One of Leetch, Stapleton, and Patrick will be on the ice at all times and will be most important in preventing Montreal's forechecking. All are top notch puckmovers or rushers and hopefully they'll be up for the challenge. Supporting them will be Chuck Rayner in net.

I also found this quote in Gorman's bio about the Habs giving his team a harder time than other clubs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 13.4.1934 - The Telegraph
The idea of "forechecking", he explained, is to bottle up the opposing forwards in their own defensive zone. Our system consisted of the center and wings doing right down into the opponents' territory while our defense men moved over our own blue line. The Canadiens gave us more trouble than any of the other clubs because of the speed of Howie Morenz and the great stickhandling of Aurel Joliat.
If speed and skill are the keys to frustrating Gorman's clubs then Pittsburgh should match up favorably. Here's where I posted what was written about the speed of my forwards. Additionally, Neil Colville was an excellent stickhandler who could make checkers miss and go the other way. If he can help relieve pressure while my top six is resting then Pittsburgh will be in good shape.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edmonton Journal - 12/23/1937
New York scribes were pinning orchids on Neil Colville, Edmonton hockey product...Writing in the World-Telegram Jim Burchard says:

"The play that enabled the Rangers to win was one of the neatest exhibitions of solo stickhandling ever seen in Madison Square Garden. Even Normie Smith Red Wing goalie, doffed his hat to Neil Colville and called Neil's goal a masterpiece, adding Neil used his head, his hands, and his skates; when he finally let the puck go I was on my back picking butterflies.

If you'd care for the estimate of Andy Lytle of the Toronto Star on Neil's puckchasing ability, take a gander at this, bearing in mind that Andrew has seen the best of them in his day:
"Neil Colville looks like a hockey player just as much as Bill Cook ever did. I say Cook because Neil with his young face and rapidly graying hair, has the thick, resistant body that Bill Cook had. He combines with Cook's strength with a lot of Boucher's speed and weaving skill with a puck at his flying feet. Like Apps, when Neil appears to be stopped in his tracks, somehow in the next breathless instant he is sailing on again."


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Old
05-21-2013, 08:16 AM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bring Back Scuderi View Post
With Gorman at the helm Montreal's game stresses forechecking. Successful possessions with Montreal's forwards cycling will cause my team problems. Pittsburgh's much more dangerous with the puck on our sticks rather than defending. To support this I tried to invest in puckmoving defenseman and a goalie who could move the puck. To be successful in this series Pittsburgh will rely on our transition abilities in attempts to prevent Montreal from setting up shop.
Puck movement has always been good medicine against the forecheck, now and in Gorman's time, and having defensemen with strong puck skills is always useful. In Pittsburgh's case, however, it is a double-edged sword, as the defensemen who were drafted to move the puck are, with the exception of Frank Patrick on the 3rd pairing, soft, and Montreal's forecheck is hard.

With the exception of Lionel Conacher, who was brought to both Chicago and the Maroons, Tommy Gorman made omelettes with the eggs that he had. That old Maroons team was relatively full of fast, tough forwards who one would expect to be strong on the forecheck, but the Blackhawks really weren't. The Chicago team that Gorman "piloted" to the Cup in 1934 didn't have a single hall of famer at forward, nor anybody who was really known for being especially fast or physical. There were some fine forwards on that team, but the attack was led by guys like Paul Thompson and Johnny Gottselig...not exactly a murderer's row.

But this is the ATD, and Jafar apparently built this Montreal team with Gorman's system in mind. I think he did a nice job of it. The forechecking personnel on this team are strong and fast, especially on the top two lines, where it matters most. On the 1st line, you've got Jackson and Mikhailov who are presumably the deep forecheckers - a very dangerous combination. Jackson was an extremely fast skater and a strong, physical player, and Mikhailov is no slouch, either. On the 2nd line, you've got Kapustin and Roenick, another unpleasant duo, with Kapustin being a great skater who was physically aggressive and Roenick being among the greatest forecheckers of his generation, and also a good skater. Unlike the Chicago team about which Gorman made those comments, this Habs squad appears to have been built specifically with a heavy forechecking scheme in mind.

It is the speed of the Montreal forecheck on the scoringlines that really sets it apart here. When the AC's defensemen can get to the puck unchallenged, they should be able to move it, but how often is that likely to happen? Smart forechecking teams don't just dump the puck in randomly, but rather time the play to give the forechecking forwards a "running" start as they cross the blueline. Considering the quality of the coaching, and how well Montreal's forecheckers skate, this is going to leave Pittsburgh's defensemen with very little time and space to make plays, when they win the race, at all. I like the Habs' chances in a physical battle between guys like Jackson and Roenick and guys like Leetch and Stapleton.

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05-21-2013, 06:16 PM
  #54
TheDevilMadeMe
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Deadline to vote - Thursday at 3pm est/ 12pm pst. Send to me.

I'll send out PMs tomorrow


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05-21-2013, 10:51 PM
  #55
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Great series, guys.

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05-24-2013, 02:12 AM
  #56
TheDevilMadeMe
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In another remarkably close series:

Montreal Canadiens win in the 2nd OT of Game 7

3 Stars
1. Georges Vezina
2. Raymond Bourque
3. Jean Beliveau

The 3 stars were all extremely close to each other; no other player was close. Most of the Montreal voters had Vezina as the 1st or 2nd star; very few Pittsburgh voters listed either goalie. Ray Bourque and Jean Beliveau were rarely voted 1st star, but they racked up the 2nd and 3rd star votes, appearing on significantly more ballots than anyone else.

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05-24-2013, 02:31 AM
  #57
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Wow...I am stunned. I guess this makes Georges Vézina the playoff MVP this season, which is a pretty remarkable result. Congratulations to both Jafar and BBS for engineering one of the most interesting and competitive finals that I can recall. Jafar, it was an honor to have worked for your franchise. You deserve all the credit in the world for building a really great team, and for pulling off a few trades there in the mid rounds that I thought were very clever.

BBS, I was terribly impressed by your franchise this year and happy to see you in the finals as Montreal's opponent. I'm sure you'll be back here soon. You came within inches of winning it all with an offensive juggernaut, which is a marvelous achievement in a league where such teams have often struggled. Pittsburgh would have certainly been a worthy champion.

Thanks to all involved in the draft this year for making this a good one.

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05-24-2013, 09:17 AM
  #58
Jafar
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Congratulation to both BBS and Sturminator for a great debate.You guys worked very hard all playoff long so you deserve all the credit in the world.

Thank you to Sturminator to save my ass in the end of the draft and in the playoffs , you are a big part of why my team made it all the way , I don't think I would have been able to pull it off alone.

I am still damn glad to have won an ATD (if only as a team builder) with the amount of hours I spend on the drafts these last three years.



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05-24-2013, 09:24 AM
  #59
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Congrats to Montreal on their win and to all GM's for an enjoyable and hard fought ATD, can't wait for the MLD to start.

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05-24-2013, 01:22 PM
  #60
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Congrats to both teams on a great Final!

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05-24-2013, 01:24 PM
  #61
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Congrats to both teams.

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05-24-2013, 01:36 PM
  #62
TheDevilMadeMe
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I think the right team won the draft in the end. As the drafts get more competitive, it gets increasingly hard to create a team without any holes in the lineup - last year, I think that every team, even the best ones, had some significant holes in the lineup. So at this stage, to create a team with the best top 4 group of defensemen in the draft, one of the best first lines, and above average goaltending, and to still manage to have average 2nd and 3rd lines was pretty remarkable.

(Though I guess the #2 PP defensemen was something of a weak spot, but that's small potatoes compared to the rest of the lineup).

It's hard to judge my own team since I put so much work into it, but that aside, in my own opinion, this Montreal team really stood out over the other teams in a way that I haven't seen in a few drafts. That's just my own personal opinion though - the final 4 in this draft were remarkable - literally a single vote could have swung either of the semifinals or the finals.

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05-24-2013, 02:26 PM
  #63
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First off, congrats to both teams.



Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
So at this stage, to create a team with the best top 4 group of defensemen in the draft, one of the best first lines, and above average goaltending, and to still manage to have average 2nd and 3rd lines was pretty remarkable.

I really can't understand the bolded though. Which one of:

#8 Sergei Kapustin - #27 Jeremy Roenick - #19 Helmut Balderis

Are above average in their roles? Surely Kapustin is one of the worst 2nd LW around (was drafted in the 18th round)

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05-24-2013, 03:12 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
First off, congrats to both teams.






I really can't understand the bolded though. Which one of:

#8 Sergei Kapustin - #27 Jeremy Roenick - #19 Helmut Balderis

Are above average in their roles? Surely Kapustin is one of the worst 2nd LW around (was drafted in the 18th round)
Kapustin got drafted so low because nobody seemed to know that he could be something of a "glue guy." His offense is very good for a 2nd line glue guy. With that in mind, I think he's better for that role than Shane Doan. I know Jafar drafted Kapustin, but Sturm's biggest contribution to this team may have been swapping the left wings into their current configuration.

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05-24-2013, 03:59 PM
  #65
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Congrats to the Canadiens!

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05-24-2013, 04:45 PM
  #66
Rob Scuderi
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So close, great series guys. Thanks for the discussion Sturm, you made excellent picks Reen.

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05-24-2013, 05:07 PM
  #67
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I came REALLY close to trade a lot of assets to acquire Vezina before I did.I even had to cancel a practically done deal.I finally waited and Vezina fell to me.I guess this was one of the key moment in this draft seeing that Vezina is the 1st star.

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05-24-2013, 05:30 PM
  #68
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Congrats Reen, very strong lineup you managed to put together.

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05-24-2013, 05:35 PM
  #69
TheDevilMadeMe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jafar View Post
I came REALLY close to trade a lot of assets to acquire Vezina before I did.I even had to cancel a practically done deal.I finally waited and Vezina fell to me.I guess this was one of the key moment in this draft seeing that Vezina is the 1st star.
Yes, that was me, and I PMed you something like "I might be handing you the draft by trading you Vezina, but I need to do it." Then you called off the trade last minute and Vezina fell to you anyway.

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05-25-2013, 01:39 AM
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
I really can't understand the bolded though. Which one of:

#8 Sergei Kapustin - #27 Jeremy Roenick - #19 Helmut Balderis

Are above average in their roles? Surely Kapustin is one of the worst 2nd LW around (was drafted in the 18th round)
Good that you should ask, mark. I think a little deconstruction after the fact is probably not a bad thing.

I'd say Balderis is definitely a strong offensive 2nd liner. I know you don't like him for whatever reason going back to last draft, but his accomplishments really are quite impressive. I think TDMM's estimate that Balderis is offensively about on the level of a guy like Kovalchuk is probably close to the mark. It's hard to know exactly, but I think he's at least above average in his role here. Pure offensive players always come at something of a discount relative to their talent.

Quote:
Kapustin got drafted so low because nobody seemed to know that he could be something of a "glue guy." His offense is very good for a 2nd line glue guy. With that in mind, I think he's better for that role than Shane Doan. I know Jafar drafted Kapustin, but Sturm's biggest contribution to this team may have been swapping the left wings into their current configuration.
Although I'm generally not that interested in reproducing real life lines/pairings, I think the chemistry of reuniting Kapustin - Balderis on the 2nd line with a similar (but superior) center helped a lot to ease any concerns people may have had about how the unit would function. Real world chemistry is advantageous in the ATD, so long as you don't have to overpay for it, and on the 2nd unit, Montreal achieved as much chemistry I've ever seen without overpaying, and I think that paid off. I hesitated to promote Kapustin because of my skepticism about "chemistry" and because it wasn't my team and I didn't want to screw around with the lines too much, but after researching deeper into Kapustin's offensive production, I became convinced that he was the best option for the 2nd line. Promoting him also had a cascade effect, making the 3rd line better offensively with Doan in the role when it was not acting as a checking unit.

Generally, I would say Jafar won the draft in the 4th - 6th rounds and the 18th and 19th rounds. His maneuvers to trade up for Jackson and Vezina and down for Coulter seem to me to have been a very good use of resources (I don't know what he was about to trade to New Jersey, but the deal he eventually got to move up for Vezina was relatively inexpensive), and back to back steals in Kapustin and Rowe set him up with the depth that was key to his championship run. Though really, as tight as the margins have become in the ATD, any single blunder (other than in the 25th round...) could have cost him. Joe Klukay was probably his weakest meaningful pick from a value perspective, but Klukay was useful in checking a couple of high-end RWs in tight matchups against Trail and Pittsburgh, and he completed the 3rd line in style with Amonte, who was probably the best RW he could have chosen for the job. Nobody has really praised the Amonte pick too much, but I thought it was a very shrewd move given the LWs that Montreal looked likely to face.

I think Pittsburgh set itself up well by stealing explosive forwards early, both Bathgate and Schriner being standout picks, and snagging Leetch, who always seems to be the last "true #1" off the board, was also an auspicious pick. In the later rounds, Pittsburgh continued to draft quality, getting nice value in Neil Colville, Jimmy Ward and Thomas Steen, all of whom I think BBS could have sold a little more, particularly Ward. Olmstead was probably the weakest value pick that Pittsburgh made, and the comparison between how the finalists drafted their top line wings ended up being fairly revealing about the conflicting philosophies of the two GMs.

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05-25-2013, 12:48 PM
  #71
markrander87
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Kapustin got drafted so low because nobody seemed to know that he could be something of a "glue guy." His offense is very good for a 2nd line glue guy. With that in mind, I think he's better for that role than Shane Doan. I know Jafar drafted Kapustin, but Sturm's biggest contribution to this team may have been swapping the left wings into their current configuration.
In now my 4th ATD that each winner has had 1 top 6 forward that they push as excellent "value" where they get them and other GM's end up getting sold on the guy and it's what pushes them over the top to win:

ATD 2010: Vladimir Martinec
ATD 2011: Pierre Turgeon
ATD 2012: Lafontaine - Mogilny duo
ATD 2013: Sergei Kapustin


Personally for me the book is still out on Turgeon and the Lafontaine - Mogilny duo...it will be interesting to see how Kapustin gets treated in future years.

My personal opinion is that voters get wrapped up in the hoopla of the "value" of these players when they were drafted, and then overvalue what they actually bring to the table.

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05-25-2013, 01:25 PM
  #72
Sturminator
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
In now my 4th ATD that each winner has had 1 top 6 forward that they push as excellent "value" where they get them and other GM's end up getting sold on the guy and it's what pushes them over the top to win:

ATD 2010: Vladimir Martinec
ATD 2011: Pierre Turgeon
ATD 2012: Lafontaine - Mogilny duo
ATD 2013: Sergei Kapustin


Personally for me the book is still out on Turgeon and the Lafontaine - Mogilny duo...it will be interesting to see how Kapustin gets treated in future years.

My personal opinion is that voters get wrapped up in the hoopla of the "value" of these players when they were drafted, and then overvalue what they actually bring to the table.
arrbez didn't really sell Lafontaine - Mogilny all that much, certainly not as excellent value. He's too smart for that. In fact, Lafontaine was pretty obviously crappy value where Inglewood drafted him, though Mogilny may well have been a bit underrated. The main issue with that line is that nobody really called him on it, which is everyone's fault but arrbez.

Pierre Turgeon was without a doubt a strong value where seventies drafted him, and in a 40 team draft, probably about an average 2nd line center.

Vladimir Martinec had already skated on the 2nd line of an ATD champ by the time TDMM drafted him - he did it for my ATD#11 champion, and I got him at an obscene value in that draft. Is the jury really still out on Vladimir Martinec? I got Frank Foyston in the 10th round in ATD#10, put him on my 2nd line and sold him as an excellent value, as well. Is the jury still out on him? In fact, most of the "steals" who have skated on championship teams have turned out to be very much legitimate, and seen their stock rise in subsequent drafts as a result. This also applies to players like Sylvio Mantha, Chuck Rayner, Hod Stuart, Jan Suchý, Teemu Selanne, Rob Blake, etc.

I think you spend too much time navel-gazing, mark. You have a remarkably banal attitude towards new information presented in the ATD and base a disturbingly large number of your arguments on draft position. Yes, ATD champions quite frequently end up with one or more great players who fell through the cracks. What of it? Non-elite scoring forwards are the historically the biggest source of value in the draft, and Sergei Kapustin's career had been grossly underrated until this year, like that of many second-tier Soviet stars. He played on the Red Army team for ten years, and had excellent scoring results, particularly in terms of goalscoring, which he did as well as any Soviet player against whom he competed. Add to that terrific skating, grit and physicality, and yes, Kapustin is a good 2nd liner. Don't hate the player, hate the game.


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