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Would the Habs benefit from a Heavyweight enforcer? Part 3

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Old
05-25-2013, 07:20 PM
  #726
SouthernHab
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Originally Posted by MasterDecoy View Post
I'm sorry but thi. 'put him on the powerplay to cause havok' is absolute ********. People were ready to slash their wrists open because darche was on it. I'm calling bias on this one.

Da ****? Looch would never fight him! Why would he? Remember laraque?

Who gives a flying donkey **** where that guy is from. He's a dime a dozen lump of muscles on skates and signinh him would not change a damn thing in the context of the habs lineup. He might make a few of us feel better though. In that case I suggest a good psychologist.

**** it, more edit: i don't care either way if the habs sign him or not, I do however takes issue with the massive collective ***** some of you have about a guy like bordeleau. Ridiculous. He won't fix the greater issues relating to size and toughness this team has. He's nothing more than a lolipop, the kind your doctor gives you after amputating your leg.

Brb, going to hug a beer-flavored tree
You need to drink more.

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05-25-2013, 09:02 PM
  #727
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Originally Posted by CloudReader View Post
I think this is a great post and bears repeating.

Whether we like it or not, it's going to take more than an offseason to sprinkle more grit throughout the lineup. It's going to be an ongoing process, especially when every other team is looking for the same in their top-6 and top-4.

So why not have a heavyweight in the meantime, while actively seeking some quality sandpaper? It's a very low risk fix given the cost of an enforcer. At worst you have, at max, $1 Million sitting in the pressbox, at best you start changing the makeup of the team and encourage its players to play with more grit.

At this point, I don't think Bergevin can afford to not add toughness to the lineup somehow. Opposing teams will have taken notice on how Ottawa handled the Habs (pound them to get them off their game, survive the first period). Whether it would have worked with a healthy Habs lineup is beside the point. Those with the size and toughness will try in future playoffs.
I'm pretty close to 100% certain Bergevin will address the issue. I agree it will be a slow and long process. We currently have too many small guys in the top 6, we need to balance that out over time, to try and do it all in one motion won't work.

If I could flag your post, I would. Our thoughts are pretty close on this issue. Arguing that a tough guy will hurt the bottom six when we have been icing players like Armstrong, Dumont, blunden, white already is foolish. Much of our 4th line currently has no role at all, they can't score, they don't crash and bang ect. They kill penalties from time to time and their not particularly good at that either.

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05-25-2013, 09:13 PM
  #728
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An enforcer may not be able to guarantee that your players never get cheap-shotted, nor can a seatbelt guarantee you won't die in a car.

But it's less likely to happen when you have guys who make you pay when you start getting physical with our guys. It doesn't even have to be cheap shots. You wanna throw a big legal hit on Gally, well there are consequences. First it becomes less fun for the other team to do it, then it becomes instinctive to avoid it. Just like how a guy like Emelin makes you think twice about the path you take to enter our zone.

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05-25-2013, 09:13 PM
  #729
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We have a lot of small players, and Hudon, Collberg, and Kristo are on the way. They are arguably the most talented forwards in our prospect pool. If we merely stay the course, or if we invest a small amount of effort, we will get smaller, not bigger.

Basically, even if we replace Gionta and DD by two of those three players over the next 2 or 3 years, we are still too small. It will take a more exhaustive overhal than losing DD and Gionta.

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05-26-2013, 04:35 AM
  #730
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
We have a lot of small players, and Hudon, Collberg, and Kristo are on the way. They are arguably the most talented forwards in our prospect pool. If we merely stay the course, or if we invest a small amount of effort, we will get smaller, not bigger.

Basically, even if we replace Gionta and DD by two of those three players over the next 2 or 3 years, we are still too small. It will take a more exhaustive overhal than losing DD and Gionta.
we wont actually, Gionta is probably done in Mtl after next season (last year on his contract) and will be replaced by a bigger player, maybe not that much bigger but still...

same goes for Bouillon who will be replaced by someone bigger/taller...

I'd really like to know how we'd get smaller by replacing two of our smallest players by bigger ones, seriously

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05-26-2013, 09:43 AM
  #731
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
we wont actually, Gionta is probably done in Mtl after next season (last year on his contract) and will be replaced by a bigger player, maybe not that much bigger but still...

same goes for Bouillon who will be replaced by someone bigger/taller...

I'd really like to know how we'd get smaller by replacing two of our smallest players by bigger ones, seriously
If you would have read his post he kind of touches on this issue. We have kristo/Colberg ect coming down the pipe as our most offensively dominate prospects and the two most likely to translate to the bigs in the foreseeable future.

I'm not against moving one of these guys to acquire something of value though, but I wouldn't gift wrap them to another team for nothing. If it addresses a need fine, but I think Bergevin should continue the small tweaks, 1/2 moves at a time and then make the moves to put us over the top in 2014/2015

I wouldn't move gio for a player like bourque though. I would simply let his contract expire or deal him for futures, then you can target the guy you actually want, rather than picking up some other teams spare parts.

I think we'll be fine, the D looks good going forward, PK/Emelin/Gorges are tough enough, then we have Tinordi/Beaulieu knocking on the door. Boullion is a stop gap, which is fine. Diaz is the only true softie remaining. I would look to replace Gorges with a player in the mold of Brooks Orpik, who imo brings much more value than Gorges.

I think markov's time is up after this contract, unless he'll take a low ball offer at around 2.5-3million.

We need to replace either of Ryan White or Colby Armstrong for a guy who can chuck em. White can't and he's too stupid to be an everyday player, his upside is meh as well.

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05-26-2013, 10:33 AM
  #732
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Originally Posted by CloudReader View Post
When was the last time the team completely lost their composure and totally got thrown off their game? This might have been the opponent's game plan for a long time now, but it has never worked so well or at all until now.
Yes it's been a long time since we completly lost our cool like that. But what makes you think it'll suddenly be a common occurance? You can build a plan based on the opponent losing their composure because you don't control that.

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05-26-2013, 10:39 AM
  #733
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Where is this "decent hockey player who can fight" player at?

Thornton leaving Boston? Neil leaving Ottawa? There arent too many of them around and I know that you realize that because it gives you some sense of credibility wishing for something that you cannot have.

Enforcers dont strike fear in their opponents. They only fight guys like Neil and Thornton who do take liberties with the Habs skill players. A simple concept that you continue to ignore.
Prust is one, if Moen rebounds he can be another. White has potential to be one but isn't there yet. But since none of these guys are "heavyweights" you think it means nothing.

It's a simple concept that doesn't exist. Guys like Neil and Thornton aren't afraid of any enforcers, so it won't deter them from taking liberties.

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05-26-2013, 10:45 AM
  #734
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Originally Posted by andy28 View Post
An enforcer may not be able to guarantee that your players never get cheap-shotted, nor can a seatbelt guarantee you won't die in a car.

But it's less likely to happen when you have guys who make you pay when you start getting physical with our guys. It doesn't even have to be cheap shots. You wanna throw a big legal hit on Gally, well there are consequences. First it becomes less fun for the other team to do it, then it becomes instinctive to avoid it. Just like how a guy like Emelin makes you think twice about the path you take to enter our zone.
There's no evidence to support your claim. If enforcers deterred opponents then you'd be able to look back through the last 10 years of the NHL and show a trend linking injuries/being hit to having enforcers. People have looked and found nothing.

If a physical player played soft because of an opponents enforcers he'd either never make it to the NHL or have a very short career.

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05-26-2013, 10:49 AM
  #735
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Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
There's no evidence to support your claim. If enforcers deterred opponents then you'd be able to look back through the last 10 years of the NHL and show a trend linking injuries/being hit to having enforcers. People have looked and found nothing.

If a physical player played soft because of an opponents enforcers he'd either never make it to the NHL or have a very short career.
There is a trend actually. Ask Brian Gionta about the stick work when he played for Boston College. Stick work almost always goes up when fighting is removed. Two willing combatants is a heck of a lot better than getting two-handed with a stick. One you're prepared for, the other you have no idea it's coming.

Fighting doesn't prevent the game from being played, this argument is a red herring, of course fighting won't prevent hits, it's not suppose to.

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05-26-2013, 11:28 AM
  #736
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Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
Prust is one, if Moen rebounds he can be another. White has potential to be one but isn't there yet. But since none of these guys are "heavyweights" you think it means nothing.

It's a simple concept that doesn't exist. Guys like Neil and Thornton aren't afraid of any enforcers, so it won't deter them from taking liberties.
we clearly saw that when Laraque was there....... Keep trying

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05-26-2013, 11:30 AM
  #737
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Originally Posted by habsfanatics View Post
There is a trend actually. Ask Brian Gionta about the stick work when he played for Boston College. Stick work almost always goes up when fighting is removed. Two willing combatants is a heck of a lot better than getting two-handed with a stick. One you're prepared for, the other you have no idea it's coming.

Fighting doesn't prevent the game from being played, this argument is a red herring, of course fighting won't prevent hits, it's not suppose to.
How is that example a trend? It's just more conjecture unless you can back it up. And since it's not even the NHL it's not really relevant.

If you don't like using hits then fine check for non-fighting majors, do teams with enforcers deter other teams from plays that result in majors? There's a wealth of data out there why can't someone provide something to back up their claims?

It's like Cherry going off on Hockey Canada for removing hitting until 13 years old. He was saying there would be more injuries, Ron MacLean told him about how in fact injuries are the same when comparing Quebec/Alberta and Cherry ignores it and makes a pitch to the heart since he doesn't have data to back him up.

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05-26-2013, 11:32 AM
  #738
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Originally Posted by bud12 View Post
we clearly saw that when Laraque was there....... Keep trying
I think you are one of the few people who think Laraque was effective as an enforcer in Montreal.

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05-26-2013, 11:38 AM
  #739
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Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
I think you are one of the few people who think Laraque was effective as an enforcer in Montreal.
no, he was ****. But atleast, no teams tryed to gooning the habs when he was there. Both, Neil and Thornton where invisible.....

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05-26-2013, 11:56 AM
  #740
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No they wouldn't benefit from an enforcer, they need to sign 2-3 of them.

Get rid of Travis Moen (proved to be inneficient)

Ryan White (I like his grit and his intensity, but he is not an heavyweight, unfortunately).

Only one enforcer is not enough, one guy can't handle the 2-3 ****faces of the other teams.

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05-26-2013, 11:56 AM
  #741
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Originally Posted by bud12 View Post
no, he was ****. But atleast, no teams tryed to gooning the habs when he was there. Both, Neil and Thornton where invisible.....
Lucic ran back to his bench with his tail between his legs too.

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05-26-2013, 11:58 AM
  #742
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Originally Posted by bud12 View Post
no, he was ****. But atleast, no teams tryed to gooning the habs when he was there. Both, Neil and Thornton where invisible.....
If he prevented teams from gooning it up (Which I don't agree with) then how was he bad? Haven't you been claiming it doesn't matter how good of a hockey player the enforcer is?

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05-26-2013, 12:01 PM
  #743
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Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
If he prevented teams from gooning it up (Which I don't agree with) then how was he bad? Haven't you been claiming it doesn't matter how good of a hockey player the enforcer is?
He was bad because he had a broken back and could only play 20 games out of 82 in a full season. Otherwise I wouldn't of had any issues with him.

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05-26-2013, 12:06 PM
  #744
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Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
Prust is one, if Moen rebounds he can be another. White has potential to be one but isn't there yet. But since none of these guys are "heavyweights" you think it means nothing.

It's a simple concept that doesn't exist. Guys like Neil and Thornton aren't afraid of any enforcers, so it won't deter them from taking liberties.

You are deflecting again because reality is not on your side. Sure we have Prust, Moen and White. But where can we get that hockey player like Thornton or Neil since neither is leaving their team?

Did you not see the Ottawa series?

Prust was worn down by the time the playoffs arrived from fighting bigger players like Lucic, McClaren and Fraser.

Moen is past his prime and his best fighting days are behind him.

White has the heart but not the size to stand up to Kassian, Thornton or Neil.


No one on this thread ever said Thornton or Neil would be afraid of an enforcer. All we keep saying and you keep ignoring is that Thornton and Neil have to pay a price with a few fists to the face if they go after skill players.

Its called building respect. Not fear, respect. A concept long forgotten in Montreal by management and fans as yourself. And the main reason Toronto and Boston played a hockey series instead of a fight fest.

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05-26-2013, 12:06 PM
  #745
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If he prevented teams from gooning it up (Which I don't agree with) then how was he bad? Haven't you been claiming it doesn't matter how good of a hockey player the enforcer is?
I don't talk about is hockey skill bro. I said he sucked because he was never the aggressor. Rob Ray sucked as a player but was a good enforcer.Laraque was to good and friendly. And show me one game where the habs got gooned up when he was in. I doubt you will find one.

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05-26-2013, 12:09 PM
  #746
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Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
There's no evidence to support your claim. If enforcers deterred opponents then you'd be able to look back through the last 10 years of the NHL and show a trend linking injuries/being hit to having enforcers. People have looked and found nothing.

If a physical player played soft because of an opponents enforcers he'd either never make it to the NHL or have a very short career.
Toward the end of the Ottawa series, Gallagher was not crashing the net as hard and as often as he was at the beginning of the series.

Are you saying Gallagher will have a very short career?

People keep ignoring reality. The Habs quickly became a perimeter hockey team against Ottawa. We never had anyone around the net on PPs. Physical intimidation worked against the Habs.

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05-26-2013, 12:10 PM
  #747
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
You are deflecting again because reality is not on your side. Sure we have Prust, Moen and White. But where can we get that hockey player like Thornton or Neil since neither is leaving their team?

Did you not see the Ottawa series?

Prust was worn down by the time the playoffs arrived from fighting bigger players like Lucic, McClaren and Fraser.

Moen is past his prime and his best fighting days are behind him.

White has the heart but not the size to stand up to Kassian, Thornton or Neil.


No one on this thread ever said Thornton or Neil would be afraid of an enforcer. All we keep saying and you keep ignoring is that Thornton and Neil have to pay a price with a few fists to the face if they go after skill players.

Its called building respect. Not fear, respect. A concept long forgotten in Montreal by management and fans as yourself. And the main reason Toronto and Boston played a hockey series instead of a fight fest.
Patrick Bordeleau might be an UFA on the market.

We had Zach Stortini in the AHL and I'm still wondering why he wasn't called up.

I have no clue where is Ian Schultz in his development, but I would give him a try out at the camp, if he is willing to drop the gloves agaisnt NHL'ers, he earns a spot imo.

If you want to find some dudes willing to drop the gloves, you'll find them, but if you search with blinders, sure it'll be hard to find any of them.

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05-26-2013, 12:16 PM
  #748
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Physical intimidation worked against the Habs.
I'd call it physical fatigue based on being hit and intimidated. Gallagher was never afraid. There's just a freakin limit to what a body can endure. And usually, I say USUALLY, smaller bodies, smaller resistance. I know, Martin St.Louis has more resistance than Pierre Dagenais....I know that. Just talking in general....

The problem also is the lack of players that could play hockey and do their role perfectly. I mean, it's great to talk about Thornton and Neil. But really how many other players exist like that. It comes with time and development. Our past administration didn't believe in it. Let's hope our present do. And maybe start drafting them. But we not really into "heavyweight enforcing" here....Bordeleau wouldn't change a freakin thing. He'd be doing the same sideshow that Laraque did. We might win some more moral victories though. Not sure that should be our main target.

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05-26-2013, 12:18 PM
  #749
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Originally Posted by Issacar View Post
Patrick Bordeleau might be an UFA on the market.

We had Zach Stortini in the AHL and I'm still wondering why he wasn't called up.

I have no clue where is Ian Schultz in his development, but I would give him a try out at the camp, if he is willing to drop the gloves agaisnt NHL'ers, he earns a spot imo.

If you want to find some dudes willing to drop the gloves, you'll find them, but if you search with blinders, sure it'll be hard to find any of them.
Not what I was saying.

People like Sorinth (who are anti-fighting) come on this thread and say that they would be happy to have a skilled player who is a great fighter (like Neil or Thornton) on the Habs roster.

It is a deflection since he knows players of their caliber are extremely rare and the chances of Montreal getting one is even more rare.

Stortini did not have a Habs contract. Ian Schulz disappeared and hasnt been heard from since.

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05-26-2013, 12:23 PM
  #750
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
I'd call it physical fatigue based on being hit and intimidated. Gallagher was never afraid. There's just a freakin limit to what a body can endure. And usually, I say USUALLY, smaller bodies, smaller resistance. I know, Martin St.Louis has more resistance than Pierre Dagenais....I know that. Just talking in general....
I never said Gallagher was afraid. The kid has heart and is brave.

You are correct with your assessment. Gallagher was pounded (and with many cheap shots and head shots) so often that he lost his effectiveness.

The first time a Sens player laid a dirty hit on Gallagher, that player should have had to fight for it. No way should your best skill player be allowed to take that abuse.

People are forgetting that Gallagher suffered a concussion earlier in the season. But hell no, the Habs should not have an enforcer on the team to fight people cheap shotting Gallagher.

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