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Maple Leafs GM Dave Nonis has his work cut out for him

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05-25-2013, 09:53 PM
  #276
The_Chosen_One
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The previous GM forced the Leafs to pay Connolly $4.75 mil and Komisarek $4.5 mil to play for the Marlies.

In context to that $4mil for Clarkson as a 3rd line NHLer on the Leafs isn't so bad after all.

However I personally would expect Clarkson to be among Leafs top 6, top 2 lines myself, and bring that much need element of grit to the top 6 that is missing presently.
That "third line" was modeled on a line with players that produced 20-30 goals against top scoring lines in the NHL. Point being, the shut down line wasn't working that well in the previous season.

Kulemin - Colborne - Clarkson

It's successful if it produces like the MacArthur - Grabovski - Kulemin prior to last season. Otherwise we're better off with a blue collar checking line with Clutterbuck, McClement, etc. To do that, we'd have to fire Carlyle first.

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05-25-2013, 10:11 PM
  #277
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That "third line" was modeled on a line with players that produced 20-30 goals against top scoring lines in the NHL. Point being, the shut down line wasn't working that well in the previous season.

Kulemin - Colborne - Clarkson

It's successful if it produces like the MacArthur - Grabovski - Kulemin prior to last season. Otherwise we're better off with a blue collar checking line with Clutterbuck, McClement, etc. To do that, we'd have to fire Carlyle first.
Thats a solid 3rd line. Wouldn't mind either if Clarkson was replaced with Frattin.

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05-25-2013, 10:49 PM
  #278
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TheFourthPeriod.com: Tyler Bozak, Leafs far from deal

http://www.thefourthperiod.com/news/tor130525.html

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May 25, 2013 | 9:50am ET

The Toronto Maple Leafs do not appear to be close to signing impending unrestricted free agent center Tyler Bozak to a new long-term contract.

Bozak, 27, is scheduled to become a UFA July 5, and is believed to be seeking an annual salary worth in the neighborhood of $5 million to $5.5 million.

According to multiple sources, the Leafs, who would like to have Bozak back next season, are not interested in signing him to such a price tag.


Bozak, who picked up 12 goals and 16 assists for 28 points in 46 games with the Leafs this season, has expressed his desire to re-sign with Toronto. He's been slotted in as the club's No. 1 center, playing with Phil Kessel and either Joffrey Lupul or James van Riemsdyk.

However, most NHL teams do not view Bozak as a top line center, one club executive recently told TFP, and anything north of $3 million per year might be a stretch.

"If there is a contract that makes sense for us and makes sense for Tyler, we'll sign him," Leafs GM Dave Nonis told the local media last week. "But it's not a situation where we have to sign Tyler Bozak because there are numbers that make sense for the team and there are numbers that make sense for Bozie."

With a limited number of top-tier free agents available this summer, Bozak could find a better deal elsewhere. He joins Mike Ribeiro, Derek Roy and Stephen Weiss are the top centermen poised to become free agents this summer.

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05-25-2013, 11:11 PM
  #279
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Originally Posted by hockeywiz542 View Post
did we make a mistake not trading bozak and macarthur at the deadline.

losing them for nothing

in the playoffs neither one did much to help the team.

macarthur was a healthy scratch for a few games and Bozak got hurt
and kadri filled in on his line OK and it also got colborne into the game.

Again did we lose these assets for nothing

This is the only criticism that I have heard about Nonis is he is very hesitant to pull the trigger on any deals.

.

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05-25-2013, 11:25 PM
  #280
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did we make a mistake not trading bozak and macarthur at the deadline.

losing them for nothing

in the playoffs neither one did much to help the team.

macarthur was a healthy scratch for a few games and Bozak got hurt
and kadri filled in on his line OK and it also got colborne into the game.

Again did we lose these assets for nothing

This is the only criticism that I have heard about Nonis is he is very hesitant to pull the trigger on any deals.

.
It was too risky for a team that hadn't seen the playoffs since 04. He had to hold Bozak, maybe could have let Mac go. What was the injury situation like at the deadline? I don't recall.

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05-25-2013, 11:29 PM
  #281
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Weiss come on home.

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05-26-2013, 01:12 AM
  #282
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About the D, I see Rielly as being a bit less one dimensional gambler than Gardiner. In a dream scenario, Bourque vs Coffey. I think Riellly would be able to play with more different types of partners where Gards would need someone to be backing up his attack constantly. So Rielly could be effective with a Schenn type, a Gunnar type, or even a Franson type. They would be the attacking D in the top 2 pairings though, so the shutdown guy would a more conservative and much cheaper option than Dion. You just don't need that much attack in your top four, and the point generators, except for Suter, tend to be the most expensive defensemen in the league. It is a ridiculous luxury to carry four 40+ pt D in a cap environment, and with the emergence of Gardiner and Rielly coming shortly, that's where they will be.

I don't see Phaneuf as that great defensively, or at least I think they could get similar defense in a much cheaper package, and the other PMD they have and are developing make that doable. I am not suggesting he is dealt right away, but that he will be if Gards and Rielly become offensive producers.

I agree Gunnar is not the ideal fit for Dion. Not sure why because he has skills and doesn't do things that would put pressure on his partner, but he doesn't seem to fit with Dion. Perhaps Dion needs a pairing mate that hits a lot more, so he doesn't feel he has to. He seems to take himself out of the play too much backing up less physical partners.
I would move Phaneuf, but just not yet. I think signing him for 4-5 years, and then trading him once Gardiner and Rielly break out.

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05-26-2013, 05:45 AM
  #283
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The Toronto Maple Leafs do not appear to be close to signing impending unrestricted free agent center Tyler Bozak to a new long-term contract.

Bozak, 27, is scheduled to become a UFA July 5, and is believed to be seeking an annual salary worth in the neighborhood of $5 million to $5.5 million.

According to multiple sources, the Leafs, who would like to have Bozak back next season, are not interested in signing him to such a price tag.

Bozak, who picked up 12 goals and 16 assists for 28 points in 46 games with the Leafs this season, has expressed his desire to re-sign with Toronto.

However, most NHL teams do not view Bozak as a top line center, one club executive recently told TFP, and anything north of $3 million per year might be a stretch.
He's totally going to demand himself out of a job, unless he & his agent finds a dumb GM, who, we all know are out there. 5.5 million?

No way Nonis pays that.

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05-26-2013, 05:59 AM
  #284
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I would move Phaneuf, but just not yet. I think signing him for 4-5 years, and then trading him once Gardiner and Rielly break out.
Im pretty sure you meant to say IF they break out.

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05-26-2013, 08:31 AM
  #285
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Those figures were potential output. I doubt we'll see every player produce at those levels. However, contracts are largely based on potential.

Also, the shut down line is more like a second line. Interestingly, Grabovski in 2010-2011, and 2011-2012 largely played against the top lines. Regardless, he produced over 20 goals and had a high of 29 goals.

For most parts, that applied to Kulemin and MacArthur as well. I'm not sure if Kulemin production fell because of his role, but MacArthur produced 20 goals despite being utilized in the same manner. He was on the shut down like with Grabovski and Kulemin.

I would rather just keep Grabovski to be honest. Someone like Clarkson who is very physical would be nice to have as well.

, Gardiner and Rielly as well. Exactly. Stasts at 6.6 million, Kessel at $7.5m, Phaneuf at $6.5-7.0 million, a future PPG Kadri at $6.5 may end up limiting as greatly.

Kadri would be more than sufficient on the top line with Kessel. He was used quite effectively against Boston when we took the game to seven. I don't think Bozak is necessary and if things go back, use Grabovski or even Colborne as well.

Speaking of Colborne, he showed that readiness in the playoffs. I don't see anything wrong with putting a defensively sound guy on any lines. He could be groomed in a similar manner as Bozak and just given good minutes. His size, physical play, and heavy shot would compliment JVR and Kessel well.
Wait, what?

Kadri won't be getting 6.5 any time soon.

Stast has only 1 year left at 6.6m.

Kessel would not be 7.5 till the start of the 14/15 season along with Dions new cap hit, which i believe won't be as high as you listed.

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05-26-2013, 08:42 AM
  #286
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Exactly. It doesn't make any sense. Our offensive production is more than sufficient.

We do NOT require a star centre. Instead a big two-way centre like Berglund, Colb, Couts, would be more than sufficient.
IDK, i can't think of many SC winners that did not have 2 Cs that played at, well above average to star quality hockey.

The ones that come to mind had other things that we have no hope of having on the roster, like top 5 all time tenders in Roy and Brod or top 10 all time D men like Lids,Nieds,Prong.

How many of these SC winners , that had lets say ,questionble depth at C past their 1 star ,had a Selke caliber 2nd, 3rd line c?

Madden, Muller,Draper,Brind'Amour,Lehtinen,Carbonneau, to name a few.

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05-26-2013, 10:49 AM
  #287
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The "we don't need to score more" "we don't need a star centre" argument is ridiculous.

First of all, if we're going to play a centre on our roster 19 minutes, he had better produce more than 50 points.

Secondly, that argument begs the question "did you watch the games". Because if one did, the absolute black hole we have at the middle of the ice when another team's legit #1 skates out there is pretty obvious. It's not just about points, it's about keeping and controlling the puck which are major issues for the Leafs. Not to mention having a player with skills more appropriate for a linemate like Phil Kessel.

The Leafs need a major upgrade at centre, and it's not one a player like Joe Colborne is going to be able to provide from what I've seen.

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05-26-2013, 11:07 AM
  #288
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Originally Posted by hockeywiz542 View Post
http://www.thefourthperiod.com/news/tor130525.html

May 25, 2013 | 9:50am ET

The Toronto Maple Leafs do not appear to be close to signing impending unrestricted free agent center Tyler Bozak to a new long-term contract.

Bozak, 27, is scheduled to become a UFA July 5, and is believed to be seeking an annual salary worth in the neighborhood of $5 million to $5.5 million.

According to multiple sources, the Leafs, who would like to have Bozak back next season, are not interested in signing him to such a price tag.

Its quite logical for Bozak and his agent to demand that kind of money because precedent has been set.

Grabovski was awarded a $5.5 mil contract last summer and Leafs were willing to pay that amount for his contributions, when he was in a similar contract negotiation.

Bozak produces more offense, takes and wins more key faceoffs, centers a higher line and plays above him on the depth chart. When players are negotiating contracts their agent always look for comparables to set value and their camp doesn't have to look any further than on the Leafs team and its internal salary structure to make their case here.

However "two wrongs don't make a right", so overpaying Bozak for his services because you overpaid previous others for theirs is not the way Nonis should go. So he has his work cut out in this one, and where "fish or cut bait" is concerned a better option is likely to let Bozak walk, and address the center ice black hole in Toronto a different way. IMO

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05-26-2013, 11:28 AM
  #289
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Its quite logical for Bozak and his agent to demand that kind of money because precedent has been set.

Grabovski was awarded a $5.5 mil contract last summer and Leafs were willing to pay that amount for his contributions, when he was in a similar contract negotiation.

Bozak produces more offense, takes and wins more key faceoffs, centers a higher line and plays above him on the depth chart. When players are negotiating contracts their agent always look for comparables to set value and their camp doesn't have to look any further than on the Leafs team and its internal salary structure to make their case here.

However "two wrongs don't make a right", so overpaying Bozak for his services because you overpaid previous others for theirs is not the way Nonis should go. So he has his work cut out in this one, and where "fish or cut bait" is concerned a better option is likely to let Bozak walk, and address the center ice black hole in Toronto a different way. IMO
An interesting theory given one was signed coming off a 29 goal 58 point season while the other's career best is 18 G and 47 points (47 points being better than only Grabovski's worst season).

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05-26-2013, 11:43 AM
  #290
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An interesting theory given one was signed coming off a 29 goal 58 point season while the other's career best is 18 G and 47 points (47 points being better than only Grabovski's worst season).
If you asked Leaf management whom their #1 center was this year, responsible for centering the top line and taking the most key faceoffs the answer would be Bozak.

Therefore a #1 center logically is worth >= to a #2 or #3 center on the same team.

Role and responsibility as well as position on a teams depth chart determine remuneration in contract talks.

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05-26-2013, 11:50 AM
  #291
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The "we don't need to score more" "we don't need a star centre" argument is ridiculous.

First of all, if we're going to play a centre on our roster 19 minutes, he had better produce more than 50 points.

Secondly, that argument begs the question "did you watch the games". Because if one did, the absolute black hole we have at the middle of the ice when another team's legit #1 skates out there is pretty obvious. It's not just about points, it's about keeping and controlling the puck which are major issues for the Leafs. Not to mention having a player with skills more appropriate for a linemate like Phil Kessel.

The Leafs need a major upgrade at centre, and it's not one a player like Joe Colborne is going to be able to provide from what I've seen.
The Bruins centers Krecji and Bergeron ate up and spit out Leafs centers for lunch in the playoff series, demonstrating clearly the deficiency at center ice that exists in Toronto.

How Nonis plans on solving this will make for an interesting summer ahead. It certainly doesn't appear internally the answer exists.

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05-26-2013, 12:02 PM
  #292
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Its quite logical for Bozak and his agent to demand that kind of money because precedent has been set.

Grabovski was awarded a $5.5 mil contract last summer and Leafs were willing to pay that amount for his contributions, when he was in a similar contract negotiation.

Bozak produces more offense, takes and wins more key faceoffs, centers a higher line and plays above him on the depth chart. When players are negotiating contracts their agent always look for comparables to set value and their camp doesn't have to look any further than on the Leafs team and its internal salary structure to make their case here.

However "two wrongs don't make a right", so overpaying Bozak for his services because you overpaid previous others for theirs is not the way Nonis should go. So he has his work cut out in this one, and where "fish or cut bait" is concerned a better option is likely to let Bozak walk, and address the center ice black hole in Toronto a different way. IMO
Like Nonis said there are numbers that make sense for the Leafs and there are numbers that make sense for Bozak. Bozak looks at Grabovski's contract and naturally thinks he's worth that, the Leafs obviously don't. In my opinion a player who can't put up 50 to 60 points in the league no matter how good they are in the dot are not worth 5.5 million dollars. ADIOS Tyler.

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05-26-2013, 12:19 PM
  #293
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Like Nonis said there are numbers that make sense for the Leafs and there are numbers that make sense for Bozak. Bozak looks at Grabovski's contract and naturally thinks he's worth that, the Leafs obviously don't. In my opinion a player who can't put up 50 to 60 points in the league no matter how good they are in the dot are not worth 5.5 million dollars. ADIOS Tyler.
The interesting part is that I highly doubt Bozak will get that money he desires from any team even as a UFA this summer, including his own.

Once he tests the market and gets a reality check he may come crawling back to the Leafs with a new number in mind..

If Nonis is smart he allows Bozak the opportunity to to get this lesson as the market will decide his fate. Bozak will learn that he may only be a #1 center in Toronto based on the situation, but other teams are not going to be recruiting him as a #1 center willing to pay the $$$ that is afforded such players.

Nonis should call his bluff as it will likely result in a contract savings end result for Toronto, or somebody else's mistake to deal with for overpaying.

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05-26-2013, 12:34 PM
  #294
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The "we don't need to score more" "we don't need a star centre" argument is ridiculous.

First of all, if we're going to play a centre on our roster 19 minutes, he had better produce more than 50 points.

Secondly, that argument begs the question "did you watch the games". Because if one did, the absolute black hole we have at the middle of the ice when another team's legit #1 skates out there is pretty obvious. It's not just about points, it's about keeping and controlling the puck which are major issues for the Leafs. Not to mention having a player with skills more appropriate for a linemate like Phil Kessel.

The Leafs need a major upgrade at centre, and it's not one a player like Joe Colborne is going to be able to provide from what I've seen.
I like Joe as a prospect and he is perhaps on the cusp of starting his NHL career. I agree that whether or not we think he "might" be able to do something in a couple of years, he is not on the top 6 depth chart going into next season, and cannot realistically figure in their plans - unless they were to throw Grabo onto the Kessel line and then attempt to work Joe C in over the next near with a best case scenario being Joe is a starter in 14-15. The buyout rules extend to next summer but I don't see that as relevant to Grabovski. Worst case is they retain some salary to move him for an asset, and this is not a temporary component of the CBA, so they could do it next season or any season after. So in two years the buyout costs of Tucker and Colby are gone and they apply the $2 million internal debt against Grabo's salary. He looks a lot more marketable locked in at $3.5 till 2017 and if he has 50+ points next season they should have a lineup of interested, cap stressed trading partners.

The above requires a lot of belief in Colborne the offense player though, and I can't see that he has shown enough for them to place any reliance on him. When he does suck, he sucks long and hard. And Joe is the jewel of their center ice prospects. If they don't want another small center, who is less physical and less of a playmaker than the one they just developed, then Grabo can't be in their long term plans either, so the salary retaining may work as well this year to deal him, as it would in the future. Of course if he has 60 points beside Kessel you would have more interested parties, or alternatively have to subsidize the trade less. But if he should not thrive beside Kessel (I don't expect this but one has to accept the possibility) then there is at least some chance his value is worse at the end of 13-14. For this reason, it isn't automatic that they would keep him another year.

I don't think most GMs have written MG off for one bad season, as even hall of famers occasionally have an off year, so he is certainly tradeable for positive value now, esp if salary is retained, but they either have to be willing to commit to Bozak for a few years, or they have to have a reliable replacement in hand to do this. If they are committing to Boz, they can just shop Grabo for the best return possible, because there is little potential lineup benefit in keeping him rotting in the bottom 6 with the offensively challenged, and he won't recover any trade value playing beside McClement.

If they know Boz isn't it, and they let him go, Grabs is the insurance while they attempt to land a Ribeiro or whoever (sorry but Weiss still looks like a 50 point guy to me). If they can't upgrade over the summer, Grabo remains the stopgap until they can. The UFA centers for 2014 look impressive, but Sedin, Datsyuk,and Malkin aren't coming to Toronto, so they choose between Pavelski, Datsyuk, and Bergeron for guys with any talent, and I don't see Bergeron coming. Pavelski looks better than Weiss, and younger than Ribeiro, but because he and Stastny are both effectively surplus on their current teams, they may be traded and resigned elsewhere without ever reaching the market. If the Sharks don't intend to extend Joe, then Pavelski is resigned there (100% chance if no Jumbo) and Joe, who turns 35 after next season, is the FA option. A bleak outlook if they can't make a trade.


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05-26-2013, 12:36 PM
  #295
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The Bruins centers Krecji and Bergeron ate up and spit out Leafs centers for lunch in the playoff series, demonstrating clearly the deficiency at center ice that exists in Toronto.

How Nonis plans on solving this will make for an interesting summer ahead. It certainly doesn't appear internally the answer exists.
krecji yes, bergeron on the otherhand was invisible for the series except for 2 minutes where he got a fluke goal.

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05-26-2013, 12:45 PM
  #296
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krecji yes, bergeron on the otherhand was invisible for the series except for 2 minutes where he got a fluke goal.
Who was matched against Bergeron for the most part?

Bozak and 5mil in the same sentence is criminal. The GM that said 3m is about right was on target and I would give Bozak 3.5m to stay but probably trade him off by TDL.

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05-26-2013, 01:00 PM
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Like Nonis said there are numbers that make sense for the Leafs and there are numbers that make sense for Bozak. Bozak looks at Grabovski's contract and naturally thinks he's worth that, the Leafs obviously don't. In my opinion a player who can't put up 50 to 60 points in the league no matter how good they are in the dot are not worth 5.5 million dollars. ADIOS Tyler.
Interesting Nonis didn't use words like "there is a number that will make sense for both." I see this as showing disinterest in the basic numbers they have received from the Bozak camp, and not necessarily in the player himself though. It is possible that the Leafs management, like the Bozaphiles on this site, actually do think of him as an adequate #1 center, based on cost and other areas where they see a greater need for improvement. They thought so this season right? This may mean ADIO Tyler, the $5 million dollar man, but he is back, and back on the top line, if the Lefs get their magic number.

IMHO any figure he would agree to would make him grossly overpaid outside of top 6 duty, as I am fairly certain he wouldn't outproduce $1.5 million McClement if used the same way, and he will cost minimum twice that. At least around $3 million might make him movable if/when he is ever replaced on the top line. once again, salary retention might be required.

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05-26-2013, 01:00 PM
  #298
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krecji yes, bergeron on the otherhand was invisible for the series except for 2 minutes where he got a fluke goal.
Bergeron was very visible, he just didnt have puck luck. Reimer's two biggest robs of the series were on bergeron

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05-26-2013, 01:25 PM
  #299
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If you asked Leaf management whom their #1 center was this year, responsible for centering the top line and taking the most key faceoffs the answer would be Bozak.

Therefore a #1 center logically is worth >= to a #2 or #3 center on the same team.

Role and responsibility as well as position on a teams depth chart determine remuneration in contract talks.
So to summarize, you are just going to completely dodge your comments about offensive production.

Understood.

If I were Leaf management I would pray for you to be negotiating on Tyler's behalf.

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05-26-2013, 01:29 PM
  #300
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Originally Posted by Mess View Post
Its quite logical for Bozak and his agent to demand that kind of money because precedent has been set.

Grabovski was awarded a $5.5 mil contract last summer and Leafs were willing to pay that amount for his contributions, when he was in a similar contract negotiation.

Bozak produces more offense, takes and wins more key faceoffs, centers a higher line and plays above him on the depth chart. When players are negotiating contracts their agent always look for comparables to set value and their camp doesn't have to look any further than on the Leafs team and its internal salary structure to make their case here.

However "two wrongs don't make a right", so overpaying Bozak for his services because you overpaid previous others for theirs is not the way Nonis should go. So he has his work cut out in this one, and where "fish or cut bait" is concerned a better option is likely to let Bozak walk, and address the center ice black hole in Toronto a different way. IMO
Bozak's numbers aren't as good as Grabo's were.

their 2 years prior to free agency:

M.Grabo: 155gms, 52gls, 109pts, 18:30 (82gms, 28gls, 58pts)
T.Boak: 119gms, 30gls, 75pts, 19:15 (82gms, 21gls, 52pts)

and their 3 years prior to free agency:

M.Grabo: 214gms, 62gls, 144pts, 18:15 (82gms, 24gls, 55pts)
T.Bozak: 201gms, 45gls, 107pts, 19:15 (82gms, 18gls, 44pts)

and grabo didn't put up those numbers playing with Kessel and Lupul, either.

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