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Memorial Cup Thread Part II

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05-25-2013, 03:04 AM
  #276
JoemAvs
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Originally Posted by Freudian View Post
Of course both of these guys are impressive right now. They are world class talents.

But who is the best right now isn't the main criteria for who Avs will pick. It's who projects to be the best when they are 25. It's quite possible MacKinnon will be the better of them when they are 25 and it's possible it's Jones. A few games in this Memorial Cup won't tell us this.
I have to disagree with you on that Freud.
I was firmly in the Seth Jones camp. After watching a few games and thinking this through I am probably in the undecided camp.
One of the main reasons I say that is that I don't like Seth Jones reaching his potential at 25. If he jumps into the NHL next year (and he will), you have at best 1 RFA year left.
I am just not a fan of having our #1 pick hit UFA just when he comes into his own and not getting major production our of him. What is to stop him from Sutering us and go to the say Redwings?
That would incredibly piss me off.
If Jones really will not hit his stride when he is 21 or 22, I probably have to switch to the MacKinnon camp. I know that defensemen take time. But I am just not sure we can afford to waste 5-7 years of development on a #1 pick only to have to overpay him or watch him leave right when he gets there and finally starts impacting a game like he should.
Retirement contracts do not exist anymore so players like Jones will start hitting UFA more often in the future.
You probably have gotten atleast 5 great years out of MacKinnon at this point.
I still like the player Jones could become slightly more than MacKinnon but this is hard to ignore. This is a business afterall...

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05-25-2013, 03:22 AM
  #277
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Originally Posted by JoemAvs View Post
One of the main reasons I say that is that I don't like Seth Jones reaching his potential at 25. If he jumps into the NHL next year (and he will), you have at best 1 RFA year left.
I am just not a fan of having our #1 pick hit UFA just when he comes into his own and not getting major production our of him.
If Jones really will not hit his stride when he is 21 or 22, I probably have to switch to the MacKinnon camp.
I think the phrase "reach his potential" is sometimes thrown around here in the wrong way
Look at someone like Kris Letang who is currently 26 y/o (and a 3rd round pick) ... do you believe it took him till this/last season "to reach his potential"?!

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05-25-2013, 03:28 AM
  #278
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I've been surprised by the lack of hitting from defenders in general. Even bruisers like Zadorov have been quiet.

I don't know if they are coached to use positioning and sticks more in the defensive zone or if it's the big guy on small guy penalties and the suspensions that made players tone it down.

Jones does use his body but it does seem like he sometimes lets up mid-way and doesn't punish the other player like he should. Same with pushing players away from the goalie. He does it a little bit too nicely, if it makes sense.

Many of the bad habits junior players have are fixable with coaching for players who are dedicated to improving.

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05-25-2013, 04:21 AM
  #279
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Originally Posted by Freudian View Post
I've been surprised by the lack of hitting from defenders in general. Even bruisers like Zadorov have been quiet.

I don't know if they are coached to use positioning and sticks more in the defensive zone or if it's the big guy on small guy penalties and the suspensions that made players tone it down.

Jones does use his body but it does seem like he sometimes lets up mid-way and doesn't punish the other player like he should. Same with pushing players away from the goalie. He does it a little bit too nicely, if it makes sense.

Many of the bad habits junior players have are fixable with coaching for players who are dedicated to improving.
I didn't catch this latest game, but from what I've seen he never "punishes" guys. He almost never really leans into guys either, it's basically all stickwork, and position, which works for him for the most part, but leaves you wondering if it will be too passive for the NHL. Especially when you see the odd issue with speedy, and shifty forwards that he has a bit of trouble with. Not a strong worry in my mind, but just a little bit of a wonder if he can really be that good defensively in a passive sense. It's really not that easy to be successfully when you play things that way, unless you're HOF smart like Lidstrom.

Your last sentence I both agree with and disagree with at the same time in regard to Jones. I really get the sense that he's committed to learning the game, and improving on whatever he needs to, in order to be an impact defenseman. He clearly wants to be something special, which is a characteristic that most players don't have.

I have no doubts he'll improve on any weaknesses defensively, but I don't think he'll ever have that physical element. I could be wrong, and truthfully I hope I am, because I think that would make him a better defenseman in the way EJ plays things, but Jones has talked a lot about his reasoning for why he doesn't think that's necessary, and cites Lidstrom a lot. He seems to always avoid scrums and conflict too, so that physical element just doesn't apear to be in his nature.

Hopefully a coach can bring that out a little bit in him, where he can at least lean on guys behind the net or in the corners after they give up the puck, or put himself in a position to both play the body and the puck, rather than just the puck one on one, but it really kind of seems he's dead set in playing a pretty passive style positional/stick checking defensive game.


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Old
05-25-2013, 06:48 AM
  #280
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Originally Posted by Colorado Sports Fan View Post
This place is gonna be unbearable if Mac has a good game...no matter what SJ does.
All people are doing is commenting on the play of the potential picks.

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05-25-2013, 06:50 AM
  #281
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Originally Posted by ANewHope View Post
Just because Mackinnon is more impressive right now, doesn't mean he can't be down the line as well.
That's the attitude that gets teams making draft mistakes. "We'll take the less impressive guy, maybe he'll become better down the line".

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05-25-2013, 06:58 AM
  #282
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Originally Posted by JoemAvs View Post
I was firmly in the Seth Jones camp. After watching a few games and thinking this through I am probably in the undecided camp.
One of the main reasons I say that is that I don't like Seth Jones reaching his potential at 25.
This is business. Blues sure didn't wait for EJ to reach his potential by the age of 25.

This thread went from "Jones is the 2nd coming" before people watched him to "he might be better than MacKinnon in 5-10 years" after Memorial Cup started.


Last edited by marioni: 05-25-2013 at 07:04 AM.
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05-25-2013, 10:46 AM
  #283
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Originally Posted by chet1926 View Post
I think the thing that bugs me about the Seth Jones supporters is the fact that most of them won't even listen to valid arguments as to why MacKinnon is as good or even possibly better than Jones. They just have blinders on because they are so desperate to draft a dman because its a need and center is not a need.
I admit that this describes me a bit. It's not that I don't see that MacKinnon is the better player at the Memorial Cup. He has been dominant and Siemens has been one of the very few defensemen who didn't look bad against him. I want to believe that Jones will become the better player because he would fill the biggest hole which is so difficult to fill by a trade or a FA signing. Also, the World Juniors have made me a Jones fan.

I don't think MacKinnon is just having a great tournament which shouldn't be overrated. I hope Jones is having a relatively weak tournament (he still has been good) instead. I don't think Jones would be a risky pick. Heck, I even think he would instantly evolve his game in the NHL and needs to play against better opponents (and with better teammates) to really shine. Imo he'll be a dominant defender in the NHL one day and I don't think it'll take very long for him to achieve this.

That's the reason why I'll be disappointed if the Avs draft MacKinnon. On the other hand it probably would take me 10 minutes to get over it and be excited again because MacKinnon is nothing less than pretty darn impressive.

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05-25-2013, 10:49 AM
  #284
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Its hard for top notch D to look better than top notch forwards. Simply put great defense is about positioning, gap control, first pass and then offense....it much more noticeable seeing great forwards because they score more, and typically have the puck on their stick more often- and thus think they are the better choice. As great as Lidstrom was its not like he was as noticeable as Datsyuk given their positions/roles on the team.

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05-25-2013, 10:51 AM
  #285
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Originally Posted by Freudian View Post
You're like a belieber of hockey.
(Sadly) I am too old to understand this reference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chet1926 View Post
I think the thing that bugs me about the Seth Jones supporters is the fact that most of them won't even listen to valid arguments as to why MacKinnon is as good or even possibly better than Jones. They just have blinders on because they are so desperate to draft a dman because its a need and center is not a need.

Honestly I had seen Jones probably 20 times this year and Mac/Drouin maybe 10 times but the more I watch Mac the more I believe he is the better of the 2 between him and Jones. The way I view it is:

1. MacKinnon
2a Jones

I'm just not sure you pass on the number 1 guy to take the number 2 guy just to fit your need. And if you really want my honest opinion and you are purely rating the guys based off talent I think Nichushkin is ahead of Jones as well but Russian factor plays in so I put him as 2b. The more I watch Jones the more I feel that he probably ends up being a solid dman, but not I'm sold that he is a sure fire #1 in the future like so many people are making him out to be. He just doesn't seem that overly dominant considering how physically developed he is already.
I agree with this post.

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Originally Posted by avacol View Post
But of course, his play wasn't perfect. I think he is way too passive defensively. He definitely needs to lay out the body more and stop playing so nice, this isn't roller hockey. And like others have mentioned, sometimes it does seem like he just stands around in the defensive zone watching the puck.
Yup.

Quote:
Originally Posted by marioni View Post
This is business. Blues sure didn't wait for EJ to reach his potential by the age of 25.

This thread went from "Jones is the 2nd coming" before people watched him to "he might be better than MacKinnon in 5-10 years" after Memorial Cup started.
Well said.

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05-25-2013, 10:57 AM
  #286
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The MacKinnon fans are not trying to be unbearable. Like another poster said, when the Avs won the 1st overall pick and we suggested MacKinnon, we had our hats handed to us. We were told we didn't know what we were talking about and that Jones was the 2nd coming. We knew he wasn't and now it is hard not to chortle when he looks ordinary or just above average - and tonight, as he had for most of the series, he did.

No one should take it personally because at the end of the day, I am just a dummy from Canada who could easily be wrong and Jones could be the next Bobby Orr.

Anyway, the Avs enjoy the benefit of controlling their own destiny and being able to choose anyone they want. That's pretty sweet! Maybe they will want more of a sure thing and choose Mr. MacKinnon.
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Originally Posted by ANewHope View Post
lol like 75% of this forum is in favor for Jones. There's like 7-8 posters who are pushing for Mackinnon hard and I've seen half of them including myself say Jones is a great prospect and it's about wanting Mackinnon, not disliking Jones.

I just don't understand why people are allowed to push for Jones, pump his tires and all that but get all fussy when people do the exact same thing with Mackinnon. The Avs poll was like 110 - 20 for Jones
I wasn't trying to put anyone down. Sorry if it came off that way. I haven't watched any of the games of either guy so I have no qualifications to say who's better. So it wouldn't bother me either way on who we pick. It's just the Mac supporters are so boisterous in voicing their support and at times in the trashing of Jones (and yes it does come off as trashing Jones) that it just gets hard to read.

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05-25-2013, 11:26 AM
  #287
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Show me a guy who went 1st overall who wasn't extremely impressive as a 17/18 year old tho. The guy whom they project alot of the time to be the best player in his prime just happens to be a guy who's lit it up in the minors. Maybe why defesnemen don't get drafted 1st overall alot, because rarely are they more impressive then the forwards.

Just because Mackinnon is more impressive right now, doesn't mean he can't be down the line as well. Seth Jones has been just as impressive, hell he's the number 1 ranked prospect for a reason. Most people probably believe he has been the most impressive prospect as a 18 year old, more so than Mac.
Hi ANH:

Here are the issues I have with Jones and the reasons I think he is overrated...

I first saw him at the U-18. He was already a boy in a man's body and he dominated. The scouts raved!
But he was :

- Playing with a bunch of kids that had not matured as quickly as he did;
- Playing in a tournament that allowed the U.S. U-18 to dominate.

Then he got to the WHL. And, contrary to what some posters have said, he was average for the first couple months.
In fact, prior to the WJR's, there was talk that he would move down the draft rankings, not up.

Then the World Juniors happened. He pulled a Joe Namath and predicted the U.S. would win.
People scoffed because:

1) Canada had a "Dream Team";
2) The U.S. had finished 7th the year before;
3) Both Russia and Finland were far more talented than the U.S.;
4) Sweden was the returning champ.

And, during the round robin, the U.S. looked ordinary. They lost to Russia and were dominated by Canada.
More importantly, Jones looked average.

But (sadly ) something happened to the U.S. when they got to the playoff round. The offense started to click.
The D, including Jones, played great. And their goaltending was spectacular. The TEAM became great.
In the Semi-Finals, for the first time ever, the Americans spanked Canada at the WJR's. Again, Jones was terrific. MacKinnon, who was playing on Canada's 4th line because of their depth, was below average.

After the tournament, the scouts were ALL in the Jones camp. He was the 2nd coming. He was a once in a generation D-Man. However, when I saw him play in the CHL, I didn't see it and I still don't.

At the end of the day, he is a D-Man and his priorities have to be:

1) Playing D;
2) Moving the puck;
3) Rushing the puck;

He is great at 3 but that happens far less in the NHL. He does 2 really well. However, he is not strong when it comes to the top priority and the reason you draft him - defense...

i) He is not strong on the puck. For a kid who is bigger than 90% of CHL players, he is surprisingly weak.
Look at the goal Domi scored last night...

Domi took the puck at the point and went to the net. Jones, literally, turn his back on him and stuck out his stick - praying it would block the shot. Domi scored.

Guys... Domi is 5 foot nothin. Jones should have smashed him into next week. If he is weak in the CHL, what will happen in the NHL where he will not be able to rely solely on stick work?

ii) In his own zone he does not have a good sense as to where the puck will go or what he should do.

Add the fact that D-Men are 3 to 4 times more likely to bust than forwards, take years longer to develop and
I think the choice is obvious. But, again, I am just a dummy with an opinion and it is your team.
I just appreciate that I have been allowed to be here (in this forum) and the give and take.



Last point... I think both Jack and Eric Johnson were better at 18 than Jones - and look how they turned out.
They both had his gifts but were far superior defensively.

FYI : Jack (3rd overall) was traded twice by age 25; Eric (1st overall) is considered (forgive me) to be a bust.

In the last 10 years, how many first overall forwards have been traded? Hint : It rhymes with "Zero".

Sorry about the long crazy post.


Last edited by OttawaRoughRiderFan: 05-26-2013 at 12:23 PM.
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Old
05-25-2013, 11:28 AM
  #288
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I wasn't trying to put anyone down. Sorry if it came off that way.
Fair enough. It is all in fun and I did not take it in a bad way.


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05-25-2013, 11:46 AM
  #289
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I've been surprised by the lack of hitting from defenders in general. Even bruisers like Zadorov have been quiet.

I don't know if they are coached to use positioning and sticks more in the defensive zone or if it's the big guy on small guy penalties and the suspensions that made players tone it down.

Jones does use his body but it does seem like he sometimes lets up mid-way and doesn't punish the other player like he should. Same with pushing players away from the goalie. He does it a little bit too nicely, if it makes sense.

Many of the bad habits junior players have are fixable with coaching for players who are dedicated to improving.
I'm not all that surprised, a lot of Memorial Cup games tend to be a little bit down on physicality and the reason for it is the refs getting a bit trigger happy and coaches making sure their players don't cross the line so that they don't end up on the PK. Also in juniors bigger players who like to mix it up are under much bigger scrutiny and they can get away with a lot less than in the pro ranks.

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05-25-2013, 02:00 PM
  #290
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Originally Posted by dsheehan73 View Post
Its hard for top notch D to look better than top notch forwards. Simply put great defense is about positioning, gap control, first pass and then offense....it much more noticeable seeing great forwards because they score more, and typically have the puck on their stick more often- and thus think they are the better choice. As great as Lidstrom was its not like he was as noticeable as Datsyuk given their positions/roles on the team.
It's easier to look good with the puck on your stick all the time. Pouliot, who loves to carry the puck, gets to play on the first PP and is very noticeable when he plays, is a -4 for this tournament and Jones is a +6.

Jones and Wotherspoon have played well defensively. They do play a bit more using man marking than most players in the NHL does so it looks like they are wandering a bit in their own zone but I suspect it's more system than individual players overplaying situations.

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05-25-2013, 02:04 PM
  #291
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Watching Siemens in this tourney, do you guys think he's NHL ready?

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05-25-2013, 03:09 PM
  #292
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Originally Posted by marioni View Post
This is business. Blues sure didn't wait for EJ to reach his potential by the age of 25.

This thread went from "Jones is the 2nd coming" before people watched him to "he might be better than MacKinnon in 5-10 years" after Memorial Cup started.
Those same people are ones that have 3 games as a pro scout under their resume as well.

I thought Jones didn't have a real strong game to be honest, he looked sloppy in the 1st, excellent in the 2nd, and puck watching in the 3rd. Luckily enough for me I don't judge a player due to 40 minutes of play and luckily enough for our fanbase our scouts don't either. Actually IMO Portland looked pretty crappy all game long and timely goals won them this game and Carruth probably had the best game I have ever seen him play as well. Looking forward to see our Jones bounce back against MacKinnon on Sunday.

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05-25-2013, 05:31 PM
  #293
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Originally Posted by Freudian View Post
It's a bit condecending to claim that those that don't share your opinion have blinders on, especially seeing as most professional scouts don't share your views.

Avs need both forwards and defenders going forward. Anything is a good fit here. That the best prospect happens to be a defender is of course a nice thing, seeing how hard it is to find good defenders. But if he wasn't the best prospect, he wouldn't be the player Avs should pick.

I'm not sure what valid argument for MacKinnon you feel is being ignored. Pretty much everyone who wants to pick Jones here agree that MacKinnon is a tremendous prospect. It's obvious that the top four-five players in this draft are going to be excellent players.
I have to politely disagree with you on this one. I will agree that most people admit Mac is good, but they won't listen to any argument as to why he should be the pick over Jones. Basically its just annoying. Most people just say Jones is a dman we need a dman so he has to be the pick. Notice how I said most not all people, there are few that will have a lively debate.

I don't think people are per say ignoring any particular argument for MacKinnon, its more the fact that it seems the number 1 argument for Jones is that he is a dman and fills a need, which in my opinion isn't a valid argument when you have the number 1 pick you have to pick the best available player. This is where my blinders comment comes into play, because its seems most Jones supporters come back to this point as their main reasoning. Once again not all Jones supporters fall into this category.

People are more than welcome to have their own opinion, and I understand that sometimes they are going to differ from mine. Obviously I'm in the minority on this debate so I'll try my best to not troll other posters who have a different opinion than me. Personally I just want the draft to be over with so we can just move on.

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05-25-2013, 06:00 PM
  #294
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I have to politely disagree with you on this one. I will agree that most people admit Mac is good, but they won't listen to any argument as to why he should be the pick over Jones. Basically its just annoying. Most people just say Jones is a dman we need a dman so he has to be the pick. Notice how I said most not all people, there are few that will have a lively debate.

I don't think people are per say ignoring any particular argument for MacKinnon, its more the fact that it seems the number 1 argument for Jones is that he is a dman and fills a need, which in my opinion isn't a valid argument when you have the number 1 pick you have to pick the best available player. This is where my blinders comment comes into play, because its seems most Jones supporters come back to this point as their main reasoning. Once again not all Jones supporters fall into this category.

People are more than welcome to have their own opinion, and I understand that sometimes they are going to differ from mine. Obviously I'm in the minority on this debate so I'll try my best to not troll other posters who have a different opinion than me. Personally I just want the draft to be over with so we can just move on.

Mac is an amazing prospect, but I can't see him doing well on our team, nor in the west. His style is somewhat more east-bound. He would do amazing on Florida.

Jones, is BPA; but mainly because you need players like him due to his size, brain, and impact on the game. The west has weber, doughty, pietrangelo, etc; The avs have to have someone to compete with those guys, whether it be Jones or someone else.

Jones is right there, take him.

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05-26-2013, 11:44 AM
  #295
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Originally Posted by avsfan89 View Post
Mac is an amazing prospect, but I can't see him doing well on our team, nor in the west. His style is somewhat more east-bound. He would do amazing on Florida.

Jones, is BPA; but mainly because you need players like him due to his size, brain, and impact on the game. The west has weber, doughty, pietrangelo, etc; The avs have to have someone to compete with those guys, whether it be Jones or someone else.

Jones is right there, take him.
MacKinnon would do just fine the in the West. Why is his game more suited for the East?

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05-26-2013, 12:19 PM
  #296
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Mac is an amazing prospect, but I can't see him doing well on our team, nor in the west. His style is somewhat more east-bound. He would do amazing on Florida.

Jones, is BPA; but mainly because you need players like him due to his size, brain, and impact on the game. The west has weber, doughty, pietrangelo, etc; The avs have to have someone to compete with those guys, whether it be Jones or someone else.

Jones is right there, take him.
Hang on a second there my friend.

I really want the Avs to take Jones, and I don't think that I've hid my feelings on that at all.

But let's take a moment to look at this again. If they take MacKinnon, they're getting one hell of a player.

Will I be disappointed that they took him over Jones? Maybe a little, but that's because I personally feel that Jones is the BPA (only slightly) over MacKinnon. But I guaran-damn-tee you that come Opening Night when the puck drops and I see MacKinnon in an Avs uniform doing what he does best, all of my "disappointment" would be gone.

That being said, I still think that Jones is the BPA and therefore the Avs should select him.

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05-26-2013, 12:35 PM
  #297
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Originally Posted by RockLobster View Post
Hang on a second there my friend.

I really want the Avs to take Jones, and I don't think that I've hid my feelings on that at all.

But let's take a moment to look at this again. If they take MacKinnon, they're getting one hell of a player.

Will I be disappointed that they took him over Jones? Maybe a little, but that's because I personally feel that Jones is the BPA (only slightly) over MacKinnon. But I guaran-damn-tee you that come Opening Night when the puck drops and I see MacKinnon in an Avs uniform doing what he does best, all of my "disappointment" would be gone.

That being said, I still think that Jones is the BPA and therefore the Avs should select him.
Oh I agree, I would probably love Mac too.

I'm just saying Mack has Art Ross caliber point production if he goes East, but not West. West is just a different animal.

7 of the top 10 in scoring this year were from the East, with the top 4 being from the East as well. However, that said, Mack could very well be an exception but the Avs haven't had a top 5 or top 10 point getter in a long time lol

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05-26-2013, 12:40 PM
  #298
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I think MacKinnon would do just fine in the west. He seems like a mix between Hall and Duchene to me, he's more physical and reckless than Duchene, but less suicidal than Hall.

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05-26-2013, 12:48 PM
  #299
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Watching Siemens in this tourney, do you guys think he's NHL ready?
Not even close, will spend all of next year with LEM guranteed.

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I have to politely disagree with you on this one. I will agree that most people admit Mac is good, but they won't listen to any argument as to why he should be the pick over Jones. Basically its just annoying. Most people just say Jones is a dman we need a dman so he has to be the pick. Notice how I said most not all people, there are few that will have a lively debate.

I don't think people are per say ignoring any particular argument for MacKinnon, its more the fact that it seems the number 1 argument for Jones is that he is a dman and fills a need, which in my opinion isn't a valid argument when you have the number 1 pick you have to pick the best available player. This is where my blinders comment comes into play, because its seems most Jones supporters come back to this point as their main reasoning. Once again not all Jones supporters fall into this category.
I've alway wanted to draft Seth, but the more I watch Mackinnon play, the more I see an extremely gifted player. Jones will be good, but the chances of him being elite aren't as high. Still, i've been hesitant to want to draft Mackinnon because of the Avs current roster. How do you fix the defense without Seth? What do you do with Duchene, ROR, Stastny and Mackinnon all at centre? Drafting Mackinnon would create more questions than answers. Duchene is a Av for life, I really think ROR is an exceptional shutdown-two centre (like Bergeron) and I would want to keep him, so that leaves trading Stastny than to fix the d situation. I don't think he can fetch a top4 d, Avs would have to add alot. And where does that put Mackinnon on the Avs line-combos? If someone wants to show me how the Avs line-up would look with Mackinnon in the top6, and with a better defense corps somehow withouth making a 50 transactions, I'm all ears, but until than, I'm still leading towards drafting Jones.

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05-26-2013, 12:52 PM
  #300
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Its hard for top notch D to look better than top notch forwards. Simply put great defense is about positioning, gap control, first pass and then offense....it much more noticeable seeing great forwards because they score more, and typically have the puck on their stick more often- and thus think they are the better choice. As great as Lidstrom was its not like he was as noticeable as Datsyuk given their positions/roles on the team.
There are only few d-men that are noticeable as much as forwards because they are flashy and what not.

Karlsson comes to mind. The guy is pretty much a forward out there with more skills than alot of forwards in the league.

Torey Krug is an exciting player to watch.

I think Seth Jones falls in that category. He constantly jumps into offense, he does alot of coast to coast rushes, alot of stick handling etc... which is exciting to watch.

But as for your point, it is true that most top d-men aren't as noticeable as top forwards because d-men usually do their job quietly.

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