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05-26-2013, 05:12 PM
  #376
Kwayry
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Originally Posted by Inferno View Post
It's not about Torts, the players or Sather...it's about the 3 of them working to build an identity that they want.

Torts clearly wants a grind it out, physical, defensive team.

Why is Sather bringing in guys like Richards, Nash, Gaborik, Brassard, and MZA? Clowe makes sense. Pyatt makes sense. Dorsett, etc all make sense. Drafting JT Miller, Dylan McIlrath, even Chris Kreider (when he uses it) all makes sense...

but the rest of those guys DON'T. If you want to be a physical team, BE a ****ing physical team.

If you want to be a speed team, guys like Hagelin, Kreider, McD, Moore, Brassard, Callahan, etc all make sense. all above average skaters or better.

If you want to be a skill team, then guys like Brassard, Nash, Stepan, etc make sense.

What we have right now is a ****ing mishmash of players that don't have an identity up and down the lineup.

Why did we win last year? Because by and large the entire team had that singular identity. Dubi, Cally, Prust, Feds, even guys like Mitchell, etc. they play *that* way. We could have a game plan and had the personnel to do it.

But this year, we didn't have the guys to play THAT game, we also didn't have the guys to play a skill game, or a speed game. Youve got fast guys with slow guys, physical guys with midgets, passers with...passers. No shooters.

Just a ****ing cluster****.

If Sather is trying to transform us into a skill based puck possession team, then he and Torts need to be on the same page, and he needs to get the personnel to do that. Right now, too many square pegs.

You can blame Torts, you can blame Sather, you can blame the players, but the truth is, it's really a combination of all these aspects, starting first and foremost with our lack of identity.
Correct, that's why these trade proposals are meaningless until the team decides which direction it's going.

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Old
05-26-2013, 05:18 PM
  #377
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Originally Posted by Sweet Gerald View Post
He's played FIVE games.
I would trade DZ right now for Krug. You wouldn't. We disagree.

DZ may become a good offensive defenseman. Krug, after a measly 5 games, has displayed more offense than DZ in a few years. Neither of us knows how it will turn out, but I would opt for Krug. Granted, this might be the high point of Krug's career, but DZ does not seem like a long term solution as the Rangers power play leader to me.

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05-26-2013, 05:20 PM
  #378
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Originally Posted by chosen View Post
I would trade DZ right now for Krug. You wouldn't. We disagree.

DZ may become a good offensive defenseman. Krug, after a measly 5 games, has displayed more offense than DZ in a few years. Neither of us knows how it will turn out, but I would opt for Krug. Granted, this might be the high point of Krug's career, but DZ does not seem like a long term solution as the Rangers power play leader to me.
i would love to hear your take on kreider..

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Old
05-26-2013, 05:22 PM
  #379
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Originally Posted by dethomas07 View Post
i would love to hear your take on kreider..
He scored five goals in the playoffs last year, he's the greatest player of all time.

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Old
05-26-2013, 05:24 PM
  #380
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Originally Posted by dethomas07 View Post
i would love to hear your take on kreider..
My guess is that Kreider will become a solid two-way player, but never a big time goal scorer. He might get 30 goals some day.

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Old
05-26-2013, 05:29 PM
  #381
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chosen View Post
I would trade DZ right now for Krug. You wouldn't. We disagree.

DZ may become a good offensive defenseman. Krug, after a measly 5 games, has displayed more offense than DZ in a few years. Neither of us knows how it will turn out, but I would opt for Krug. Granted, this might be the high point of Krug's career, but DZ does not seem like a long term solution as the Rangers power play leader to me.
Do you happen to remember DZ in his rookie year?

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Old
05-26-2013, 06:00 PM
  #382
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Originally Posted by Sweet Gerald View Post
He scored five goals in the playoffs last year, he's the greatest player of all time.
Cool.

I think Orr edges him out, though.

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Old
05-26-2013, 06:01 PM
  #383
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Originally Posted by Calad View Post
Do you happen to remember DZ in his rookie year?
Yes.

I believe he was a minus 20 and a borderline horrific defensive defenseman.

Then again, another poster thinks he was better than Leetch in his rookie year.


Last edited by chosen: 05-26-2013 at 06:07 PM.
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Old
05-26-2013, 07:45 PM
  #384
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Originally Posted by chosen View Post
Yes.

I believe he was a minus 20 and a borderline horrific defensive defenseman.

Then again, another poster thinks he was better than Leetch in his rookie year.
I disagree with GWOW on the majority of his posts, but that is clearly not what he's saying. He's saying that Del Zotto now is better DEFENSIVELY than Leetch was at the same age. He's not saying anything about their overall values. I wouldn't know one way or the other since I was three years old in 92, but that is what GWOW is contending.

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Old
05-26-2013, 08:04 PM
  #385
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Inferno View Post
It's not about Torts, the players or Sather...it's about the 3 of them working to build an identity that they want.

Torts clearly wants a grind it out, physical, defensive team.

Why is Sather bringing in guys like Richards, Nash, Gaborik, Brassard, and MZA? Clowe makes sense. Pyatt makes sense. Dorsett, etc all make sense. Drafting JT Miller, Dylan McIlrath, even Chris Kreider (when he uses it) all makes sense...

but the rest of those guys DON'T. If you want to be a physical team, BE a ****ing physical team.

If you want to be a speed team, guys like Hagelin, Kreider, McD, Moore, Brassard, Callahan, etc all make sense. all above average skaters or better.

If you want to be a skill team, then guys like Brassard, Nash, Stepan, etc make sense.

What we have right now is a ****ing mishmash of players that don't have an identity up and down the lineup.

Why did we win last year? Because by and large the entire team had that singular identity. Dubi, Cally, Prust, Feds, even guys like Mitchell, etc. they play *that* way. We could have a game plan and had the personnel to do it.

But this year, we didn't have the guys to play THAT game, we also didn't have the guys to play a skill game, or a speed game. Youve got fast guys with slow guys, physical guys with midgets, passers with...passers. No shooters.

Just a ****ing cluster****.

If Sather is trying to transform us into a skill based puck possession team, then he and Torts need to be on the same page, and he needs to get the personnel to do that. Right now, too many square pegs.

You can blame Torts, you can blame Sather, you can blame the players, but the truth is, it's really a combination of all these aspects, starting first and foremost with our lack of identity.
Very well said. Agree 100%.

I will say, though, you do need to have a few guys on the team with different skillsets. A guy like Hags who can zoom into the corners and flush out pucks for the playmakers and scorers. And, of course, you need some skill guys who can finish to win games.

The key is being able to use the different talent sets in a single system. Have a scoring line, have the momentum line, have the grinding line, have the shutdown line, etc.

Like you said, this year it looked like a mishmash. It was. Lines were made that didn't fit at all.

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Old
05-26-2013, 08:10 PM
  #386
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You need skilled players no matter what kind of team you're building. Last year was essentially a Torts dream team. A ton of grinders, but then you have Richards and Gaborik. Skilled players excel when they have a gritty team behind them. You can't just have 4 lines of Callahans.

I would have liked to see Torts given at least one more chance with that roster. But, that roster is gone, so...


Last edited by Aufheben: 05-26-2013 at 08:17 PM.
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Old
05-26-2013, 08:18 PM
  #387
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I don't understand people getting pissed off at this team because they lost in the 2nd round to a very good Bruins team. These were the 3 teams that everyone said would be left in the end in the east. This is not the end of the world considering we will have over $20 million in cap space to re-sign our RFAs and maybe a 3rd line center with the Richards buyout.



And for those saying trade MDZ or trade Staal and get more offense, you have to let this team grow. And it is, there are very good peices on this team, with maybe a few more like Fast, Miller or Lindberg coming up. I also think that at the right price at a two year deal, say 2 yrs 8 mill dollars, I would resign Clowe because you can't waste Henriks career and these next 5 years are extremely important.

In Goal: we are set
In Defense: if we sign Girardi to a decent contract, we are set for the next 10 years.
On forwards: Good peices, maybe another 2nd line or 3rd line forward, and we are set.

Obviously there will be trades along the way, but we have a set core that has been together for the last four years so hopefully next year we might do even better.

So please, stop asking for panic reaction trades, and lets see what happens next year.

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Old
05-26-2013, 08:29 PM
  #388
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People are miffed, because this was supposed to be a year we competed for the cup. We added Nash after a conference finals season,he was supposed to elevate our team game.

It didn't work out, obviously. But the expectations were undeniably higher than in previous years.

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Old
05-26-2013, 08:48 PM
  #389
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zil View Post
I disagree with GWOW on the majority of his posts, but that is clearly not what he's saying. He's saying that Del Zotto now is better DEFENSIVELY than Leetch was at the same age. He's not saying anything about their overall values. I wouldn't know one way or the other since I was three years old in 92, but that is what GWOW is contending.
GWOW is wrong. Leetch was always pretty decent in his own end and he got better as he got older.

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Old
05-26-2013, 09:05 PM
  #390
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Originally Posted by eco's bones View Post
GWOW is wrong. Leetch was always pretty decent in his own end and he got better as he got older.
Leetch was ok on defense.

I only remember Leetch as a defensive liability near the end of his career.

More importantly .. why are we comparing the weaker part of Leetch's game to the "stronger" part of DZ's game (at present)?

We don't know if DZ has any additional upside from here. If this is as good as he gets he's simply a 5/6 defenseman on a bubble team.
If Leetch was on the current Rangers the PP wouldn't be an issue and my guess is that the team would be on the way to Pittsburgh.


Last edited by ltrangerfan: 05-26-2013 at 09:19 PM.
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Old
05-26-2013, 09:24 PM
  #391
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chosen View Post
I would trade DZ right now for Krug. You wouldn't. We disagree.

DZ may become a good offensive defenseman. Krug, after a measly 5 games, has displayed more offense than DZ in a few years. Neither of us knows how it will turn out, but I would opt for Krug. Granted, this might be the high point of Krug's career, but DZ does not seem like a long term solution as the Rangers power play leader to me.
Meeh, he's this years Kreider/flavor of the month. I remember last year people were proposing ridiculous trades, such as Nash for a package that had Kreider as the centerpiece. Krug will fall back to earth, probably play in Providence next year.

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Old
05-26-2013, 10:30 PM
  #392
chosen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zil View Post
I disagree with GWOW on the majority of his posts, but that is clearly not what he's saying. He's saying that Del Zotto now is better DEFENSIVELY than Leetch was at the same age. He's not saying anything about their overall values. I wouldn't know one way or the other since I was three years old in 92, but that is what GWOW is contending.
I know what he meant and I disagree.

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Old
05-26-2013, 10:33 PM
  #393
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Originally Posted by nyrpassion View Post
Meeh, he's this years Kreider/flavor of the month. I remember last year people were proposing ridiculous trades, such as Nash for a package that had Kreider as the centerpiece. Krug will fall back to earth, probably play in Providence next year.
You might turn out to be right. I am guessing he sticks and becomes a nice NHL dman with a very nice offensive game.

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05-26-2013, 10:39 PM
  #394
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Originally Posted by PavelBure9 View Post
I don't understand people getting pissed off at this team because they lost in the 2nd round to a very good Bruins team. These were the 3 teams that everyone said would be left in the end in the east. This is not the end of the world considering we will have over $20 million in cap space to re-sign our RFAs and maybe a 3rd line center with the Richards buyout.



And for those saying trade MDZ or trade Staal and get more offense, you have to let this team grow. And it is, there are very good peices on this team, with maybe a few more like Fast, Miller or Lindberg coming up. I also think that at the right price at a two year deal, say 2 yrs 8 mill dollars, I would resign Clowe because you can't waste Henriks career and these next 5 years are extremely important.

In Goal: we are set
In Defense: if we sign Girardi to a decent contract, we are set for the next 10 years.
On forwards: Good peices, maybe another 2nd line or 3rd line forward, and we are set.

Obviously there will be trades along the way, but we have a set core that has been together for the last four years so hopefully next year we might do even better.

So please, stop asking for panic reaction trades, and lets see what happens next year.
Rangers will not be set until they have 2 dmen with good offense. So far they have none.

In the playoffs you need to generate offense from your defense. No team is worse than the Rangers at this.

If it were not for Hank they would be a mediocre team. The Bruins going on with a mediocre goaltender underscores the weakness the Rangers currently face. As highly thought of as Hank is I believe he is underrated.

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Old
05-27-2013, 01:55 AM
  #395
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Originally Posted by chosen View Post
I would trade DZ right now for Krug. You wouldn't. We disagree.
DZ may become a good offensive defenseman. Krug, after a measly 5 games, has displayed more offense than DZ in a few years. Neither of us knows how it will turn out, but I would opt for Krug. Granted, this might be the high point of Krug's career, but DZ does not seem like a long term solution as the Rangers power play leader to me.


Cam Fowler all over again.

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Old
05-27-2013, 05:22 AM
  #396
chosen
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Originally Posted by darko View Post
Cam Fowler all over again.
The Cam Fowler stuff was pre ane post draft, not after performing in NHL.

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Old
05-27-2013, 07:43 AM
  #397
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The Cam Fowler stuff was pre ane post draft, not after performing in NHL.
He's had 5 NHL games.

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Old
05-27-2013, 08:10 AM
  #398
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Originally Posted by iamitter View Post
He's had 5 NHL games.
5 better games than DZ ever strung together and it was when it counted most.

Do you think DZ is a longterm solution as a offensive D? I don't. He has become an average NHL defenseman. That is a good thing, but when he is your #1 offensive option something is wrong. He still might become that, but I would bet against.

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05-27-2013, 08:44 AM
  #399
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chosen View Post
5 better games than DZ ever strung together and it was when it counted most.

Do you think DZ is a longterm solution as a offensive D? I don't. He has become an average NHL defenseman. That is a good thing, but when he is your #1 offensive option something is wrong. He still might become that, but I would bet against.
i'm pretty surprised at you brother. you're usually not so quick to jump to conclusions (Krug)

5 games against a team that puts absolutely ZERO pressure on a defenseman...against a team that lost its identity as a forechecking hard hitting team. Krug was under no pressure whatsoever and succeeded almost 100% thanks to a rifle of a slapshot that he has.

5 games against 1 team whose entire defensive structure is about giving up time and space to the opposition in order to pack the middle to protect against shots is NOT the way to make decisions on a player.

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05-27-2013, 08:44 AM
  #400
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Originally Posted by Fitzy View Post
People are miffed, because this was supposed to be a year we competed for the cup. We added Nash after a conference finals season,he was supposed to elevate our team game.

It didn't work out, obviously. But the expectations were undeniably higher than in previous years.
I think didn't work out is a huge under statement. Our top 6 never clicked. We had no bottom 6 until we gave up a huge piece of our top 6 to solidify the bottom 6,which helped but tremendously but Richards falling off a cliff just put us in a death sprial.Yes that team from the 11-12 season is gone, dead, buried & all but forgoten.

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