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Maple Leafs GM Dave Nonis has his work cut out for him

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Old
05-26-2013, 08:44 PM
  #326
nuck
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Originally Posted by notdoneyet View Post
The way grabo is playing he is at least 2.5M+
Third line center for what he brings to the table should get no more than 3M at most.


My two cents

1. If Bozak wants 4-5M then he is gone.
2. Nonis will replace him with someone through FA or trade.
3. If #2 happens then Grabo will be given next year to improve his play and if not he will be traded or bought out. Cant have another year like the last one with no offense at 5.5M
If they trade or FA to fill the #1 center spot, rather than try Grabo, I would expect him to be dealt over the summer. He could have a much better year, but it is impossible for him to play anywhere close to his contract with the icetime and the linemates he had. You can't get 50 points out of someone who plays 15 minutes a game, and mostly with Kulemin and McClement. If he was a gritty checking machine who was 60% on the FO and hit like Komorov you might put up with 35 points but he isn't that guy. I sort of know in theory why they used him as they did, but they had to know he wasn't likely a fit, and you don't pay any player $5 million a year for that role.
If Boz stays, the $5.5 million 3rd liner goes, simple as that. I can't guess at how high the club might go on a Bozak deal. That will maybe be the most interesting part of the summer as to whether Bozak can be signed to a deal which would not make him untradeable. Of course if they manage to move Grabovski without eating slary, than anything is possible.

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05-26-2013, 09:00 PM
  #327
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Here is a link to Leafs player stats from the 2012-13 season. http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/teams/statisti...hl-maple_leafs

Bozak produced 12 goals 16 assists 28 points and Grabovski produced 9 goals 7 assists and 16 points.

Therefore Bozak produced more offense. Not sure were the confusion or debate is over my statement being inaccurate.

If Bozak were to continue to be employed as Leafs #1 center and play on the 1st PP unit he is likely to continue to outproduce Grabovski in the future.

If a player is playing ahead of on the depth chart and producing more than his own teammate then he is going to demand >= money is my theory.. Based on recent reports Bozak asking price is north of $5 mil and Grabovski is making $5.5 mil presently, so it appears to be supported in this case, that he is asking for similar $$.
I'm pretty sure if Grabovski had the same percentage of offensive zone starts as Bozak + his linemates, he would not only match his offensive production but better it. Grabovski is a better player than Bozak.

Grabo had a higher even strength scoring rate than Bozak despite playing with lesser teammates and against much tougher competition. Simply put, Grabovski was put in a position to struggle this year and thus produced less than he is capable of producing.


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05-27-2013, 06:42 AM
  #328
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Originally Posted by Crispy Crust View Post
I'm pretty sure if Grabovski had the same percentage of offensive zone starts as Bozak + his linemates, he would not only match his offensive production but better it. Grabovski is a better player than Bozak.

Grabo had a higher even strength scoring rate than Bozak despite playing with lesser teammates and against much tougher competition. Simply put, Grabovski was put in a position to struggle this year and thus produced less than he is capable of producing.
bozak should give the leafs a home town discount ......the only reason he is even getting talked about in the 3-4 -5 million dollar range is because A ......he was alowed to stay with kessel his whole career B the leafs and brian burke alowed him to get the ice time of a number 1 center ,even tho hes 2-3 at best ....if anyone gives bozak more than 3.5 per anum ,,,,,they ll just be buying him out 2 years from now

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05-27-2013, 06:56 AM
  #329
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Simply put, Grabovski was put in a position to struggle this year and thus produced less than he is capable of producing.
That excuse just doesn't cut it for a 5.5M player anymore, he not only failed to provide secondary scoring but the role he was put in, he failed to play sound defence. -10 regular season and -10 in the playoffs being completely outplayed by a similarily payed player, David Krejci at 5.25M.

If anything, it just ascentuated the point he is not a very good player, when you make top 2 dollars on the team, you contribute anyway you can, and this player didn't. He doesn't even kill penalties, doesn't make linemates better, or take key faceoffs. Then what does he bring as a Center?

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05-27-2013, 10:11 AM
  #330
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Originally Posted by Crispy Crust View Post
I'm pretty sure if Grabovski had the same percentage of offensive zone starts as Bozak + his linemates, he would not only match his offensive production but better it. Grabovski is a better player than Bozak.

Grabo had a higher even strength scoring rate than Bozak despite playing with lesser teammates and against much tougher competition. Simply put, Grabovski was put in a position to struggle this year and thus produced less than he is capable of producing.
Which came first the chicken or the egg ?

Did Grabovski struggle to score therefore removed and put into a more defensive role or was it the other way around.. Grabovski's play likely deciding how coach Carlyle deployed him.

Bozak getting more offensive starts also is supporting his case in contract talks when using teammate Grabovski as his comparable to suggest he provides more offense, thus the offensive zone starts.

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05-27-2013, 10:29 AM
  #331
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Originally Posted by Mess View Post
Which came first the chicken or the egg ?

Did Grabovski struggle to score therefore removed and put into a more defensive role or was it the other way around.. Grabovski's play likely deciding how coach Carlyle deployed him.

Bozak getting more offensive starts also is supporting his case in contract talks when using teammate Grabovski as his comparable to suggest he provides more offense, thus the offensive zone starts.
We rolled 3 scoring lines. I believe the Grabo line with Macarthur and Kulemin was reunited to begin the season. Obviously as the season went on they couldn't get anything going or find their chemistry. So both players were moved to a better line, while grabovski was played in the new found shutdown line which consisted of Komarov and Mcclement for a good part of the year.

Obviously he played a little time with others like Macarthur, Kulemin, Frattin, JVR, but not enough time to find chemistry and get going. I think Grabo got a raw deal to begin with. Carlyle and Grabovski simply got off on the wrong foot. Hopefully that changes this season when he is played in his correct role.

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05-27-2013, 10:45 AM
  #332
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Originally Posted by BeLeaf1331 View Post
We rolled 3 scoring lines. I believe the Grabo line with Macarthur and Kulemin was reunited to begin the season. Obviously as the season went on they couldn't get anything going or find their chemistry. So both players were moved to a better line, while grabovski was played in the new found shutdown line which consisted of Komarov and Mcclement for a good part of the year.

Obviously he played a little time with others like Macarthur, Kulemin, Frattin, JVR, but not enough time to find chemistry and get going. I think Grabo got a raw deal to begin with. Carlyle and Grabovski simply got off on the wrong foot. Hopefully that changes this season when he is played in his correct role.
Or maybe Carlyle just does t think he's that good?

Maybe the coach thinks Bozak is better?

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05-27-2013, 10:48 AM
  #333
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Originally Posted by BeLeaf1331 View Post
We rolled 3 scoring lines. I believe the Grabo line with Macarthur and Kulemin was reunited to begin the season. Obviously as the season went on they couldn't get anything going or find their chemistry. So both players were moved to a better line, while grabovski was played in the new found shutdown line which consisted of Komarov and Mcclement for a good part of the year.

Obviously he played a little time with others like Macarthur, Kulemin, Frattin, JVR, but not enough time to find chemistry and get going. I think Grabo got a raw deal to begin with. Carlyle and Grabovski simply got off on the wrong foot. Hopefully that changes this season when he is played in his correct role.
Grabovski elevated his play in the playoffs and hopefully that translates with renewed confidence to regain his scoring abilities of the past.

Also factoring into Grabovski's role next year depends on what happens with Bozak and\or if Nonis goes out and acquires another top 6 center via trade or UFA signing.

If Bozak returns its like Tyler and Kadri centering top 6 lines and Grabovski's role once again as a 3rd line and thus more defensive role.

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05-27-2013, 10:58 AM
  #334
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Originally Posted by Crispy Crust View Post
Grabo had a higher even strength scoring rate than Bozak despite playing with lesser teammates and against much tougher competition. Simply put, Grabovski was put in a position to struggle this year and thus produced less than he is capable of producing.
Why has no one touched on the even strength scoring stat he brought up? Do people not think playing with an elite offensive force in Phil should lead to putting up more points than playing less minutes with defensive wingers? Why was Grabovski still able to outproduce Bozak with no 1st PP time, no Kessel, Lupul/JVR and less icetime? Something about that just doesnt add up for me and I'd like an explanation how Bozak is regarded as better offensively when you take the situations they were placed in into account.

I also agree Grabovski had a poor season, but a poor season does not equal a poor player. Would Grabovski get his contract awarded to him after the year he just had? Of course not, but there was a reason he was paid 5.5M and it wasn't because of his tenacious defense and 3rd line checking role where he excelled while playing in non-offensive situations so why would you expect him to perform admirably when thrust into a role that doesn't fit his game and skill set?

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05-27-2013, 11:00 AM
  #335
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Which came first the chicken or the egg ?

Did Grabovski struggle to score therefore removed and put into a more defensive role or was it the other way around.. Grabovski's play likely deciding how coach Carlyle deployed him.

Bozak getting more offensive starts also is supporting his case in contract talks when using teammate Grabovski as his comparable to suggest he provides more offense, thus the offensive zone starts.
I will try to find the interview but I clearly remember Carlyle saying at the start of the season that he was assigning each individual player specific roles on the team. From what I remember, he claimed that Grabovski was chosen to be the shutdown line's center because of his ability to go toe to toe with other teams top players. He had the speed to physically shadow the other team's top lines and he had in the past (top +/- on the team for centers) shown that he was fully capable of playing defense more so than say Bozak, and Rookie Kadri.

Down the stretch however, McClement started sliding more and more into that 3rd line center role and Grabo was used as a tweener on the 2nd line and shutdown line. In the playoffs, I believe that Grabo was thrust more into a fore-checking role and out of the shutdown center role and he excelled at it. He fully utilized his speed to get into the fore-check and effectively retrieve the puck back from the Bruins D on many occasions. Biggest issue for him in the playoffs was that he was completely snake bitten and his line mates weren't much help either. He was basically going solo on his line.

Next season, I think McClement will be given that shutdown center role. We will sign another free agent Center to play the 4th line energy role (Boyd Gordon for example) and Grabo will be playing top line minutes unless we acquire a true #1 center option. Bozak is great on the draws but he doesn't have the physical attributes or the skill level of a Grabovski. If we are forced to go into next season with Grabo at #1 center I don't think we will be any worse off.

The key to next season will lay solely on the 2nd line. We need that Lupul - Kadri - Kulemin/ Frattin/ FA line to produce consistently. Top line with Kessel and JVR will be fine and should be able to produce at will essentially. Our 3rd line will be fairly solid if it turns out being Kulemin - McClement - FA/Frattin/Komarov.

Free Agents:

Free agents I would freely target are,

Bickell - Play 3rd/4th line tweener, pref around $1.5 mil

Cooke - Play 3rd/4th line tweener, big PKer, agitator, has limited his dirtyness in recent years, probably sign for $2 mil

Clarkson - 2nd/3rd line tweener, get him at $4mil IF we can't sign Bickell

Boyd Gordon - Excellent on the faceoffs and played admirably on a defensive minded Coyotes team last season, will probably come fairly cheap $1.5 or under.

Scuderi - Excellent veteran player who knows his role on a team and can eat big minutes paired with Phaneuf on the top pairing. This also moves Gunnar down to a more suitable 2nd or 3rd pair. Would probably cost us around $3.5-$4 mil.

So bottom 6/ D next season, most ideally:

Clarkson/Bickell - McClement - Kulemin
Komarov - Gordon - Cooke

D:
Phaneuf - Scuds
Gards - Franson
Gunnar - Fraser

We have a tough line up with players, who have played predominantly as role players in the past. All players in the bottom 6 have played significant roles killing penalties on the Leafs or their past teams. This is where they will get their playing minutes. We have a defense that actually looks stable. Top pairing can eat heavy minutes, 2nd pairing can be our offensive pairing and the Gunnar pairing can be our shutdown D pair. Both physical mobile defenceman who prefer to play D more so than handle the puck.


Last edited by Center Ice Scrum: 05-27-2013 at 11:08 AM.
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05-27-2013, 12:09 PM
  #336
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Originally Posted by Center Ice Scrum View Post
I will try to find the interview but I clearly remember Carlyle saying at the start of the season that he was assigning each individual player specific roles on the team. From what I remember, he claimed that Grabovski was chosen to be the shutdown line's center because of his ability to go toe to toe with other teams top players. He had the speed to physically shadow the other team's top lines and he had in the past (top +/- on the team for centers) shown that he was fully capable of playing defense more so than say Bozak, and Rookie Kadri.

Down the stretch however, McClement started sliding more and more into that 3rd line center role and Grabo was used as a tweener on the 2nd line and shutdown line. In the playoffs, I believe that Grabo was thrust more into a fore-checking role and out of the shutdown center role and he excelled at it. He fully utilized his speed to get into the fore-check and effectively retrieve the puck back from the Bruins D on many occasions. Biggest issue for him in the playoffs was that he was completely snake bitten and his line mates weren't much help either. He was basically going solo on his line.

Next season, I think McClement will be given that shutdown center role. We will sign another free agent Center to play the 4th line energy role (Boyd Gordon for example) and Grabo will be playing top line minutes unless we acquire a true #1 center option. Bozak is great on the draws but he doesn't have the physical attributes or the skill level of a Grabovski. If we are forced to go into next season with Grabo at #1 center I don't think we will be any worse off.

The key to next season will lay solely on the 2nd line. We need that Lupul - Kadri - Kulemin/ Frattin/ FA line to produce consistently. Top line with Kessel and JVR will be fine and should be able to produce at will essentially. Our 3rd line will be fairly solid if it turns out being Kulemin - McClement - FA/Frattin/Komarov.

Free Agents:

Free agents I would freely target are,

Bickell - Play 3rd/4th line tweener, pref around $1.5 mil

Cooke - Play 3rd/4th line tweener, big PKer, agitator, has limited his dirtyness in recent years, probably sign for $2 mil

Clarkson - 2nd/3rd line tweener, get him at $4mil IF we can't sign Bickell

Boyd Gordon - Excellent on the faceoffs and played admirably on a defensive minded Coyotes team last season, will probably come fairly cheap $1.5 or under.

Scuderi - Excellent veteran player who knows his role on a team and can eat big minutes paired with Phaneuf on the top pairing. This also moves Gunnar down to a more suitable 2nd or 3rd pair. Would probably cost us around $3.5-$4 mil.

So bottom 6/ D next season, most ideally:

Clarkson/Bickell - McClement - Kulemin
Komarov - Gordon - Cooke

D:
Phaneuf - Scuds
Gards - Franson
Gunnar - Fraser

We have a tough line up with players, who have played predominantly as role players in the past. All players in the bottom 6 have played significant roles killing penalties on the Leafs or their past teams. This is where they will get their playing minutes. We have a defense that actually looks stable. Top pairing can eat heavy minutes, 2nd pairing can be our offensive pairing and the Gunnar pairing can be our shutdown D pair. Both physical mobile defenceman who prefer to play D more so than handle the puck.
Our enforcers played a big role in our regular season success, why would you take out Orr and replace him with Cooke especially when we already have Komarov? Also, we already have a Bickell, very similar to Kulemin. Gimme Clarkson instead, he's a better threat, can play on the 2nd PP in front if the net and will drop the mits.

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05-27-2013, 01:17 PM
  #337
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Our enforcers played a big role in our regular season success, why would you take out Orr and replace him with Cooke especially when we already have Komarov? Also, we already have a Bickell, very similar to Kulemin. Gimme Clarkson instead, he's a better threat, can play on the 2nd PP in front if the net and will drop the mits.
Did they though?

Winning games and having enforcers dressed doesn't automatically mean we won for that reason. With that logic if we had a losing season with the same line up then obviously we should get rid of Orr and Mclaren right? Sometimes there is more to a player's value than just the team's record.

I find it silly and borderline offensive to attribute a big role in the team's success to our least used and worst players.

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05-27-2013, 01:34 PM
  #338
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Did they though?

Winning games and having enforcers dressed doesn't automatically mean we won for that reason. With that logic if we had a losing season with the same line up then obviously we should get rid of Orr and Mclaren right? Sometimes there is more to a player's value than just the team's record.

I find it silly and borderline offensive to attribute a big role in the team's success to our least used and worst players.
We had success dressing 2 enforcers in the regular season and 1 in the playoffs, why do you think we shouldn't dress 1 for next year?

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05-27-2013, 01:45 PM
  #339
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We had success dressing 2 enforcers in the regular season and 1 in the playoffs, why do you think we shouldn't dress 1 for next year?
Where did I say that? I said it is foolish to say the enforcers played a big role in the Leafs success. I didnt advocate for no one that is capable of dropping the mitts. I think as long as the Leafs have one of Orr, Mclaren or Fraser dressed they would be fine.

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05-27-2013, 01:54 PM
  #340
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We had success dressing 2 enforcers in the regular season and 1 in the playoffs, why do you think we shouldn't dress 1 for next year?
I believe adding a player line David Clarkson to the top 6/9 forwards, and adding grit and toughness element would allow the Leafs to dress only one of either\or Orr\McLaren on any given night, and not be forced to dress both to offset the lack of toughness among the top 9.

That allows Toronto to increase their skill level in the process and maintain a similar level of toughness.

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05-27-2013, 01:54 PM
  #341
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Where did I say that? I said it is foolish to say the enforcers played a big role in the Leafs success. I didnt advocate for no one that is capable of dropping the mitts. I think as long as the Leafs have one of Orr, Mclaren or Fraser dressed they would be fine.
I thought I was talking to you originally.

The original post I responded to had no enforcers in their forward lineup. I don't think you can only have Fraser in your lineup as an enforcer, you'd be playing with 5 D way too often. Why wouldn't you have atleast one in your forward group, the 4th line plays 5ish minutes. For 5 mins of ice time a game they give your whole team more swagger.

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05-27-2013, 01:59 PM
  #342
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I believe adding a player line David Clarkson to the top 6/9 forwards, and adding grit and toughness element would allow the Leafs to dress only one of either\or Orr\McLaren on any given night, and not be forced to dress both to offset the lack of toughness among the top 9.

That allows Toronto to increase their skill level in the process and maintain a similar level of toughness.
Totally agree. Orr / Fraser / Clarkson is great imo.

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05-27-2013, 02:03 PM
  #343
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I thought I was talking to you originally.

The original post I responded to had no enforcers in their forward lineup. I don't think you can only have Fraser in your lineup as an enforcer, you'd be playing with 5 D way too often. Why wouldn't you have atleast one in your forward group, the 4th line plays 5ish minutes. For 5 mins of ice time a game they give your whole team more swagger.
Oh sorry for the confusion then. Im fine with one forward who is an enforcer on the team. I dont think they need to dress 82 games though since some teams don't have a heavyweight and if Fraser is dressed he would be able to handle any fisticuffs. For some teams it's definitely nice to be able to trot out a Mclaren or an Orr if the other team wants to try and run around the ice taking liberties with skilled guys.

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05-27-2013, 02:07 PM
  #344
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I believe adding a player line David Clarkson to the top 6/9 forwards, and adding grit and toughness element would allow the Leafs to dress only one of either\or Orr\McLaren on any given night, and not be forced to dress both to offset the lack of toughness among the top 9.

That allows Toronto to increase their skill level in the process and maintain a similar level of toughness.
Yes I do not want to take away from toughness, but dressing two goons on the 4th line allows them only 5mins of ice time.

By adding clarkson to the top 9, we can dress someone with more skill for the 4th line and give it the ability to play 10 mins.

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05-27-2013, 02:17 PM
  #345
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I would LOVE it if soon we could have this:

Line 2 - Clarkson
Line 3 - Biggs
Line 4 - McClaren
D #6 - Fraser

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05-27-2013, 02:57 PM
  #346
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I would LOVE it if soon we could have this:

Line 2 - Clarkson
Line 3 - Biggs
Line 4 - McClaren
D #6 - Fraser
The habs wouldn`t even get on the ice to face us.

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05-27-2013, 02:59 PM
  #347
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Clarkson is good...........at about 3mill per

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05-27-2013, 03:04 PM
  #348
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I like your thoughts but O'reilly cant be traded until after next year.

When colorado matched they can't trade him for a year and that date I believe is
after next years trade deadline. So they are stuck with him for the whole year.
Ribeiro it is then.

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05-27-2013, 03:11 PM
  #349
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Did they though?

Winning games and having enforcers dressed doesn't automatically mean we won for that reason. With that logic if we had a losing season with the same line up then obviously we should get rid of Orr and Mclaren right? Sometimes there is more to a player's value than just the team's record.

I find it silly and borderline offensive to attribute a big role in the team's success to our least used and worst players.
Its about as dumb as the dummies who used to value that useless POS Colby Armstrong because somehow the Leafs record was better with him in the lineup..LOL. Sports junkies aren't known for their high brow of intelligence.

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05-27-2013, 04:31 PM
  #350
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Clarkson is literally the worst UFA target this year. He is the guy that is going to be the most overpaid, and is going to be the guy in a couple of years making $5m to be a mediocre 3rd liner. Stay far away from Clarkson.

With Komarov and Orr on the 4th line wings, and Kuly and Frattin on the 3rd line wings, plus big two-way prospects like Colborne, Ashton, Biggs, Leivo pushing for spots, we've got more than enough size for our wings without paying some guy $5m to be our 3rd line winger.

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