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05-27-2013, 05:49 AM
  #276
Fourier
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What I think is exactly what I said.

If you are expecting Horcoff to play as a bottom 6 prevent player, you arnt going to have any success.

And if the Oilers signed Horcoff and than signed other players to force him into that role then you are setting the team up for failure.

As for why he would warrant the minutes I am suggesting... well obviously it would be to achieve a better result than we did.

I think an outscoring line with Horcoff and some scoring danger would have achieved better results than what happened.
Before his contract was signed I was actually in favour of a long term cap friendly deal for Horcoff. I though he had 3 years or so left as a top 6 center and then that because of his speed and his conditioning that he could transition into a strong #3 center.

When the Oilers signed Horcoff I am sure they did not expect such a rapid deterioration in his skills. At that point he was one of the fastest skaters in the NHL and was seemingly able to contribute offensively. Right now he is a shadow of the player he was when that deal was made.

At this point in his career he is at best a #3C. For parts of his year he showed he could play that role very well. But at times it also looked like he was overwhelmed by that task as well. On a team with a solid group of vets that can carry more of the defensive responsibility and chip in some goals, Horcoff probably still has some mileage left. But his days of being anything but a bit player are over.

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05-27-2013, 06:12 AM
  #277
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Originally Posted by Paralyzer008 View Post
These would be my two targets specifically.
I suspect the Blues would be interested in a Hemsky for Halak swap. That would give the Oilers two decent goaltenders and give the Blues someone to help their relatively poor offensive foward group - who couldn't do anything against LA. St. Louis should be in win now mode.

Elliot and Allen are probably decent enough goaltenders for the Blues - who need to worry more about signing Pietrangelo and Shattenkirk long-term.

The Blues could free up some space by trading Perron - who wasn't productive at all in the playoffs.

Hemsky with Berglund or Backes could give Hemsky some room to create and return to form (don't need to raise his health issues - if he's hurt he's doing nothing).

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05-27-2013, 06:31 AM
  #278
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Originally Posted by Hemsky4PM View Post
I suspect the Blues would be interested in a Hemsky for Halak swap. That would give the Oilers two decent goaltenders and give the Blues someone to help their relatively poor offensive foward group - who couldn't do anything against LA. St. Louis should be in win now mode.

Elliot and Allen are probably decent enough goaltenders for the Blues - who need to worry more about signing Pietrangelo and Shattenkirk long-term.

The Blues could free up some space by trading Perron - who wasn't productive at all in the playoffs.

Hemsky with Berglund or Backes could give Hemsky some room to create and return to form (don't need to raise his health issues - if he's hurt he's doing nothing).
I know Perron had an underwhelming stretch drive, but I don't think there'd be alot of desire to trade a 50 point producer with the potential of 60 points when his contract is a measily 3.8. Especially if their plan is to replace them with an older, less productive, more expensive Hemsky. You just don't manage assets like that if you're already against the cap

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05-27-2013, 08:42 AM
  #279
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Originally Posted by SHO NUFF View Post
I think the mental aspect is absolutely something that can be developed. He's still learning the position at this level. This was really the first season he had to deal with heightened expectations and the pressure of being the go to guy. I also think it's absolutely the right move to get legitimate competition in here to push him to elevate his game. Hopefully he's able to thrive in this type of situation and step up his play.
Agreed. We saw Dubnyk make huge strides this past season towards becoming a #1 goalie. His numbers were very respectable considering the team he played on. We attend almost every game and there are things you see that the TV cameras miss. I noticed his compete level increased near the end of the season, a sign of confidence and maturity. You also saw him go to Kabby often for advice which Kabby always helped him with. I'd like to see a strong backup pushing Dub's but to throw him under the bus now would be a mistake, unless we are getting a Luongo type back.

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05-27-2013, 08:51 AM
  #280
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Before his contract was signed I was actually in favour of a long term cap friendly deal for Horcoff. I though he had 3 years or so left as a top 6 center and then that because of his speed and his conditioning that he could transition into a strong #3 center.

When the Oilers signed Horcoff I am sure they did not expect such a rapid deterioration in his skills. At that point he was one of the fastest skaters in the NHL and was seemingly able to contribute offensively. Right now he is a shadow of the player he was when that deal was made.

At this point in his career he is at best a #3C. For parts of his year he showed he could play that role very well. But at times it also looked like he was overwhelmed by that task as well. On a team with a solid group of vets that can carry more of the defensive responsibility and chip in some goals, Horcoff probably still has some mileage left. But his days of being anything but a bit player are over.
One of the fairest assessments of Horcoff yet. I totally agree with this, after signing his contract all the coaches played him hard. He was expected to play 1st line, PP, and kill penalties. He was put up against the top lines night after night and sent out for all the big faceoffs.

I'm not a huge fan of Horcoff but I'm trying to be fair to the guy. He's done all this only to be on a losing team year after year. I'm sure that gets to a guy after a while. Put him on a team like Boston, much like Iggy did and watch him. In all honesty I'd like to see that happen, he's gave the Oilers his best, send him somewhere like that.

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05-27-2013, 09:45 AM
  #281
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Originally Posted by mactforcoach View Post
One of the fairest assessments of Horcoff yet. I totally agree with this, after signing his contract all the coaches played him hard. He was expected to play 1st line, PP, and kill penalties. He was put up against the top lines night after night and sent out for all the big faceoffs.

I'm not a huge fan of Horcoff but I'm trying to be fair to the guy. He's done all this only to be on a losing team year after year. I'm sure that gets to a guy after a while. Put him on a team like Boston, much like Iggy did and watch him. In all honesty I'd like to see that happen, he's gave the Oilers his best, send him somewhere like that.
He is a big reason we have been a losing team year after year. He lead the teams forwards in avg ice time per game for something like 6 years in a row. I find it amusing that since MacT made his comments a lot more people are talking about getting rid of Horcoff when he was lauded as a great Captain, the reason we were in the a playoff position etc etc.

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05-27-2013, 10:12 AM
  #282
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Originally Posted by Beerfish View Post
He is a big reason we have been a losing team year after year. He lead the teams forwards in avg ice time per game for something like 6 years in a row. I find it amusing that since MacT made his comments a lot more people are talking about getting rid of Horcoff when he was lauded as a great Captain, the reason we were in the a playoff position etc etc.
That's real a GM issue not a player issue.

Not Horcoff's fault that the GM after x amount of years can't realize that they need someone better.

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05-27-2013, 11:08 AM
  #283
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I know Perron had an underwhelming stretch drive, but I don't think there'd be alot of desire to trade a 50 point producer with the potential of 60 points when his contract is a measily 3.8. Especially if their plan is to replace them with an older, less productive, more expensive Hemsky. You just don't manage assets like that if you're already against the cap

I don't propose they move Perron for nothing. Just that they consider moving him to add somewhere else. They could afford Hemsky for one season - even with the cap dropping.

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05-27-2013, 12:08 PM
  #284
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Originally Posted by mactforcoach View Post
Agreed. We saw Dubnyk make huge strides this past season towards becoming a #1 goalie. His numbers were very respectable considering the team he played on. We attend almost every game and there are things you see that the TV cameras miss. I noticed his compete level increased near the end of the season, a sign of confidence and maturity. You also saw him go to Kabby often for advice which Kabby always helped him with. I'd like to see a strong backup pushing Dub's but to throw him under the bus now would be a mistake, unless we are getting a Luongo type back.
his compete level increased near the end of the season?
was this "increased compete level" during the losing streak that solidified the Oilers being out of the playoff hunt, or after that, when the pressure was off and the guys were just playing out the string?

I support what MacT had to say about DD.

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05-27-2013, 12:19 PM
  #285
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Originally Posted by Beerfish View Post
He is a big reason we have been a losing team year after year. He lead the teams forwards in avg ice time per game for something like 6 years in a row. I find it amusing that since MacT made his comments a lot more people are talking about getting rid of Horcoff when he was lauded as a great Captain, the reason we were in the a playoff position etc etc.
People like you still blame Horcoff way too much for us being awful for so long. This team was so bad for the last few years, you could trade Horcoff for any player in the league and we would still have been a bad team. And I mean any player. That's what happens when a GM ices a team of AHL'ers and guys under 20. Calling Horcoff a "big reason we were so bad" is ridiculous. Its really not his fault that he was a 3rd line center having to play 1st line center minutes.

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05-27-2013, 12:20 PM
  #286
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Originally Posted by Gord View Post
his compete level increased near the end of the season?
was this "increased compete level" during the losing streak that solidified the Oilers being out of the playoff hunt, or after that, when the pressure was off and the guys were just playing out the string?

I support what MacT had to say about DD.
Maybe it was in the winning streak that brought the Oilers into the playoff race.

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05-27-2013, 01:44 PM
  #287
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Originally Posted by The Perfect Human View Post
He's played at an elite level a few seasons but IMO he has also dropped back the last few seasons. I'd put him in the same league as Toews, Kopitar, Etc... Guys that could be league MVP's but aren't consistently putting up 100 point seasons.

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05-27-2013, 01:54 PM
  #288
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his compete level increased near the end of the season?
was this "increased compete level" during the losing streak that solidified the Oilers being out of the playoff hunt, or after that, when the pressure was off and the guys were just playing out the string?

I support what MacT had to say about DD.
The losing streak occurred during a stretch of games in which the Oilers scored 1 goal or less in 8 of 10 games. Not surprisingly, they lost those 8 games. With goal support like that, it would have taken a shutout streak of historic proportions from Dubnyk and Khabi for the Oilers to have remained competitive in the playoff race. I don't know if Dubnyk increased his compete level during that stretch of 10 games, but I can definitely say something about the compete level from the rest of the team.

Probably Dubnyk was "deflated" by the horrible performance of the skaters in front of him, though.

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05-27-2013, 02:24 PM
  #289
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People like you still blame Horcoff way too much for us being awful for so long. This team was so bad for the last few years, you could trade Horcoff for any player in the league and we would still have been a bad team. And I mean any player. That's what happens when a GM ices a team of AHL'ers and guys under 20. Calling Horcoff a "big reason we were so bad" is ridiculous. Its really not his fault that he was a 3rd line center having to play 1st line center minutes.
Yes it is his fault he was a bad player who was fed prime minutes, prime pp time and got owned 5 on 5 vs tough competition. He had all the ice time, all the responsibility and was paid like a top tier player. Because we were shoddy in other areas doesn't make him any better that is for sure. It's still unbelievable how a guy that snookered a team out of so much entitle ice time and so much money is patted on the ass so much. All the while other players get the stick in the neck for anything they do or 20 games of bad play good old Horc just traipses along year after year with poor results and not being taken to task for anything.

Let's all bash Eberle, mps, Hemsky, Souray, etc etc etc. Teflon Shawn indeed.

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05-27-2013, 02:27 PM
  #290
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Originally Posted by Tarus View Post
There is no scenario(short of trading the Oiler's entire roster for another team's roster) where the Oiler's have their best chance to win the cup next year, or even the next 4 years really. The idea that elite players on ELC contracts is the way to win cups is a silly myth that happened a couple of times with Crosby/Malkin and Toews/Kane in very specific circumstances, with very unique players and situations.

Regular cup contenders including Detroit/SJ/LA/Pittsburgh/Chicago this year, LA/NJ last year, Boston/Vancouver in 2010, are all veteran teams with few(if any) ELC players playing prominent roles. Their success can be directly tied to their willingness to bend over backwards to keep their front line star talent at all cost, and build around them with replaceable plug and play veterans.

The only reason to even consider trading any of Hall, RNH, Eberle, Yakupov or Shultz is if 3 or 4 years down the road when we have a better understanding of their full potential and limitations - is if one of them lags behind in developing the grit, determination, and defensive dimension you need in highly paid star players on cup contenders.
With creative management I think it's very possible. Especially this summer where a lot of teams will be looking to trade bigger money contracts or buying out players. Lets just say for fun that we trade RNH for Bergeron(who's willing to sign long term) and Boychuk. Then we move Hemsky to the Blues for Halak. Sign UFA's Streit, Torres, Prospal, Bozak ,and Orr.Buyout Horcoff, and Smyth. Trade Belanger for a pick, and Paajarvi for Clutterbuck. Resign Fistric and Smithson. Go into next season with this team:

Hall-Bergeron-Eberle
Prospal-Gagner-Yakupov
Torres-Bozak-Clutterbuck
Brown-Smithson-Orr
Petrell, Hartikainen

Boychuk-Streit
Petry-Smid
Schultz-Schultz
Fistric

Potter sent down

Halak
Dubnyk


That's at least close to contender IMO. Obviously not realistic that we'll see that many moves but who knows.

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05-27-2013, 05:49 PM
  #291
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Originally Posted by raab View Post
With creative management I think it's very possible. Especially this summer where a lot of teams will be looking to trade bigger money contracts or buying out players. Lets just say for fun that we trade RNH for Bergeron(who's willing to sign long term) and Boychuk. Then we move Hemsky to the Blues for Halak. Sign UFA's Streit, Torres, Prospal, Bozak ,and Orr.Buyout Horcoff, and Smyth. Trade Belanger for a pick, and Paajarvi for Clutterbuck. Resign Fistric and Smithson. Go into next season with this team:

Hall-Bergeron-Eberle
Prospal-Gagner-Yakupov
Torres-Bozak-Clutterbuck
Brown-Smithson-Orr
Petrell, Hartikainen

Boychuk-Streit
Petry-Smid
Schultz-Schultz
Fistric

Potter sent down

Halak
Dubnyk


That's at least close to contender IMO. Obviously not realistic that we'll see that many moves but who knows.
That defensive group is barely playoff caliber, and the forward group would get severely outclassed by the majority of the cup contenders out there, especially given how raw the younger players on the Oilers still are.

RNH will also be a better player than Bergeron, and if you are trading him to Boston in an attempt to become an instant cup contender you don't want one of their support centers back, you want the guy on that team who actually makes that team great - Zdeno Chara, a close to 35 year old former UFA signing.

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05-27-2013, 06:04 PM
  #292
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Originally Posted by Tarus View Post
That defensive group is barely playoff caliber, and the forward group would get severely outclassed by the majority of the cup contenders out there, especially given how raw the younger players on the Oilers still are.

RNH will also be a better player than Bergeron, and if you are trading him to Boston in an attempt to become an instant cup contender you don't want one of their support centers back, you want the guy on that team who actually makes that team great - Zdeno Chara, a close to 35 year old former UFA signing.
What young people are you talking about? Hall was over a PPG this year. I see him getting at least 70 next year. Eberle had 76 point last year and I see him getting over 60 next year. Bergeron will get at least 60 playing between them and be able to shut down the best centers in the league. Yakupov will be in a support role and have Prospal and Gagner to help him. The bottom 6 brings everything were missing right now from our bottom 6. Our d needs an improvement but hopefully we are able to move our 7th this year for a high quality d man. And have you been watching Boston, Bergeron is just as big of a piece from that team. I'd be surprised if Boston fans would move him straight up for RNH to be honest.

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05-27-2013, 06:19 PM
  #293
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What I think is exactly what I said.

If you are expecting Horcoff to play as a bottom 6 prevent player, you arnt going to have any success.

And if the Oilers signed Horcoff and than signed other players to force him into that role then you are setting the team up for failure.

As for why he would warrant the minutes I am suggesting... well obviously it would be to achieve a better result than we did.

I think an outscoring line with Horcoff and some scoring danger would have achieved better results than what happened.
Okay. Serious question. Are you Shawn Horcoff? Visually impaired? A relative of Mr. Horcoff?
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Is MacT trolling us?

No. MacT has already intimated Horcoff won't be here next season. Still, hillarious.


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05-27-2013, 06:47 PM
  #294
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Yes it is his fault he was a bad player who was fed prime minutes, prime pp time and got owned 5 on 5 vs tough competition. He had all the ice time, all the responsibility and was paid like a top tier player. Because we were shoddy in other areas doesn't make him any better that is for sure. It's still unbelievable how a guy that snookered a team out of so much entitle ice time and so much money is patted on the ass so much. All the while other players get the stick in the neck for anything they do or 20 games of bad play good old Horc just traipses along year after year with poor results and not being taken to task for anything.

Let's all bash Eberle, mps, Hemsky, Souray, etc etc etc. Teflon Shawn indeed.
Horcoff has been bashed more than all of those players combined. There is no logic behind your argument at all. Are you actually saying that Horcoff gave himself more ice time? Those are management and coaching decisions, not player decisions. Horcoff has been dragged through the mud for way too long here. It isn't his fault that he was one of the few NHL caliber forwards this team had, and despite being a 3rd line player in terms of quality, was typically the best center we had as well.

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05-27-2013, 07:15 PM
  #295
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What young people are you talking about? Hall was over a PPG this year. I see him getting at least 70 next year. Eberle had 76 point last year and I see him getting over 60 next year. Bergeron will get at least 60 playing between them and be able to shut down the best centers in the league. Yakupov will be in a support role and have Prospal and Gagner to help him. The bottom 6 brings everything were missing right now from our bottom 6. Our d needs an improvement but hopefully we are able to move our 7th this year for a high quality d man. And have you been watching Boston, Bergeron is just as big of a piece from that team. I'd be surprised if Boston fans would move him straight up for RNH to be honest.
They are poor defensively, and struggle to win puck possession battles on a nightly basis, plugging Bergeron in there doesn't automatically rectify that problem. They also struggle to produce offense in tough games and have a tendency to disappear and back down when the physical play ramps up, that is something they have to learn and gain experience to overcome as all games in the playoffs are tough games.

The Oiler's best chances at winning a Stanley cup will be when Hall/RNH and Yak are between the ages of 25 and 35 and have fully developed and learned what it takes to win games every single night, much like every consistent cup contending team in the NHL has with their star players. There is no reason to start trading high potential players for older, further down the line players in a mad rush to start contending immediately when the core itself isn't even close to being able to compete at that level.

The team you have up there is maybe a playoff spot contender, at best. Bergeron would take a step back outside of Boston's high chemistry, talented, balanced lineup, and the defense would get killed nightly unless the high caliber defenseman the Oilers get with the 7th overall pick is Shea Weber.

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05-27-2013, 08:04 PM
  #296
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Originally Posted by Hemsky4PM View Post
I suspect the Blues would be interested in a Hemsky for Halak swap. That would give the Oilers two decent goaltenders and give the Blues someone to help their relatively poor offensive foward group - who couldn't do anything against LA. St. Louis should be in win now mode.

Elliot and Allen are probably decent enough goaltenders for the Blues - who need to worry more about signing Pietrangelo and Shattenkirk long-term.

The Blues could free up some space by trading Perron - who wasn't productive at all in the playoffs.

Hemsky with Berglund or Backes could give Hemsky some room to create and return to form (don't need to raise his health issues - if he's hurt he's doing nothing).
I think the Blues would try and trade Elliot away before getting rid of Halak.
If Halak wasn't so injury ridden he would be the #1 guy in STL.

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05-27-2013, 08:19 PM
  #297
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I think the Blues would try and trade Elliot away before getting rid of Halak.
If Halak wasn't so injury ridden he would be the #1 guy in STL.
The guy Hitchcock fought with? Yeah right. Hitchcock doesn't take crap from anyone. He'll never play a game for him again. Not after how good Elliot and Allen were the last half.

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05-27-2013, 08:31 PM
  #298
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In my opinion it has more to do with St Louis defense being among the best in the NHL over Elliot and Allen being top goaltenders.

Elliot was brutal in Ottawa.

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05-27-2013, 09:23 PM
  #299
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In my opinion it has more to do with St Louis defense being among the best in the NHL over Elliot and Allen being top goaltenders.

Elliot was brutal in Ottawa.
And Colorado.

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05-27-2013, 09:44 PM
  #300
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In my opinion it has more to do with St Louis defense being among the best in the NHL over Elliot and Allen being top goaltenders.

Elliot was brutal in Ottawa.
Yep. It's the same thing that happens in Phoenix

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