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Old
05-26-2013, 11:13 AM
  #26
MsWoof
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sobrien View Post
You can't count that against Homer, or anyone really. Pronger went down with a freak injury that's likely career ending. Wasn't because he was 37, it could have happened to any player in the league
He had 4 surgeries in 15 months before that so it wasn't just the freak injury. Players get injured and recover more slowly when they're older, as do people in general.

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05-26-2013, 11:33 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by achdumeingute View Post
What I will count against him, was that he PAID too much for one guy that ANH needed to deal. Lupul, Sbisa, 1st, and not another first is a MUCH better deal than essentially 3 straight years of not having a first round pick, compounded by trading another 1st for Versteeg and 2 more for Carle.

Its a large reason we are where we are today, devoid of farm talent.
If there is s dearth of talent in the Flyers' system it is because of the traded draft choices rather than poor selections. A team would like to get two good players out of each draft; guys that would make strong contributions to the team. Since '07 when Holmgren took over as GM his record at doing that is fair.
07-JVR (now L.Schenn)
08-Bourdon and Rinaldo. Bourdon would be a starter on defense of he hadn't been hurt so badly.
09-Wellwood and Lauridson. Both have played in Pihlly and contributed to some degree.
10-McGinn
11-Coutourier. Cousins will play here in the future and Noebels might.
12-Laughton. Gostisbehere probably will play here. Stolarz is the best goalie suspect in the organization and has a chance for the future. Larsson may make it a an NHL defenseman.
Not all that shabby considering the lack of draft choices. Solid up front; contributors on the blue line and maybe a goalie for the future. There is talent in and coming from the system. (I'd like to throw in Alt who was obtained by trade and may be a player.)

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05-26-2013, 12:04 PM
  #28
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I'm not sure how anyone can give Holmgren more than an F on cap management.

The pitifully bad cap management has affected almost every other aspect of the team. A lot of the bad trades he's made were to dig out of cap problems. He's had to add picks to most deals to help dump salary, which has had a direct effect on the lack of depth and quality prospects. The team has been handcuffed at the deadline because of a lack of cap space, more often than not while still having huge holes in the lineup.

His lack of understanding of the 35+ rule could have really bit the Flyers in the arse, had Pronger not been injured, and chose to retire instead.

He is very good at the draft (when he has picks to use), and good at throwing a lot of crap at the wall with undrafted free agents (and got a huge win with Read). All the other GM duties are not his best thing.

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05-26-2013, 12:23 PM
  #29
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I think it's pretty impossible to give him an overall grade without knowing the impetus for the Richards/Carter trades, and without really knowing if it was his idea or Snider's command.

Still, I think other areas are fair to grade him on. He gets an F for cap management, but as someone else said he gets an A for creativity. He has a wonderful eye for talent but he's too much of a mad scientist when it comes to player/asset movement.

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05-26-2013, 01:20 PM
  #30
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I'd give him a C. For every good/great move he makes he make an equally bad/terrible move

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05-26-2013, 01:27 PM
  #31
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I'd give him a C. He's made some good moves, but then again, he's made some moves that I really dislike. It's never boring though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOREacek View Post
Nah. I feel Coots and Schenn will turn out to be better players. Obviously that's not a given but that's my feeling. Add in Voracek, Simmonds and the draft pick that got us Grossmann and that's a golden return. The Bobrovsky trade, yes Im sure that will haunt us. We all have to cross our fingers and hope he goes back to the KHL
It'd be nice for them to turn out as good of players as them, let alone better. I feel like everyone always downplays how good both of them are (and were here), especially Carter. It's not nearly as easy as some make it seem to be that good. That being said, adding in the other players involved and I like the returns.

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Old
05-27-2013, 01:09 PM
  #32
DecadesofFutility
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MY Rating

My Holmgren GM Rating: D

Free agency: C
Some good some bad, most OK.

Undrafted free agents: C

Drafting: C
Only number #1 Picks have chance of being a regular NHL player.
No #1 Defenseman prospects drafted.
No #1 Goalie prospects drafted.

Trades: D
Holmgren has made 8 good trades out of a total of 17.
Pronger trade was bad.

Cap management: F
Holmgren’s cap management is atrocious,
overpays, salary dumps mismanages contracts.

Intangibles: F
Builds Team backwards, Lack of Patience developing players,
Lack of Plan for future

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Old
05-27-2013, 04:33 PM
  #33
1865
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How can you criticise Holmgren for what happened with Pronger? You could trade a 4th for Crosby, but if he gets injured and plays one period for you would it make it a bad trade?

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05-27-2013, 05:40 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1865 View Post
How can you criticise Holmgren for what happened with Pronger? You could trade a 4th for Crosby, but if he gets injured and plays one period for you would it make it a bad trade?
I criticize him for paying too much for one player.

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05-27-2013, 05:55 PM
  #35
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hmmmmm.....

Grade D-
Richards, Carter both playing well, far into the playoffs since traded
Sbisa, playing well out West
JVR(even tho' I like L Schenn)
Bobrovsky ???, probably the Vezina.....WTF ?
Eminger, 1st rd'er pissed away
IMHO, only a matter of time before he trades Coots or B. Schenn, for what only he knows
locker room country club atmosphere
the sheer # of draft picks he trades away

I honestly think it's time for a change in the FO

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Old
05-27-2013, 06:03 PM
  #36
1865
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Quote:
Originally Posted by achdumeingute View Post
I criticize him for paying too much for one player.
We acquired Pronger and went to the cup final in the next season. I don't think we overpaid.

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Old
05-27-2013, 09:40 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1865 View Post
We acquired Pronger and went to the cup final in the next season. I don't think we overpaid.
I disagree, and I disagreed then.

In that same token (and I'm not saying you specifically), but with that logic, don't complain about where we are today...because that trade is a big cause of our NHL talent gap right now, amongst other "push for the cup" trades.

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Old
05-28-2013, 09:49 AM
  #38
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Holmgren gets and "I" for incomplete from me.......STILL NO CUP!

I think like his team, he has been too inconsistent. I liked his initial year as GM as well as his bold moves with Carter and Richards which I still feel he needed to do ... whether prodded by Snider or not. His drafting has been good and I credit him with assembling a good scouting staff even though he has made them sit idle for far to0 many rounds and years by trading away picks like crazy.

The Bryz and Pronger acquisitions I sort of understand and happened within a context. Unfortunately, too little return from the both of them although Pronger almost helped us win a cup in 2010.

Last season was by far one of his worst IMO. He went for the homeruns when he needed to play more small ball.

This offseason IMO will be critical to his and the team's future just like the year we traded Carter and Richards (bought him and team some time). He needs to make some important moves to get the team back on the right path. Right now I don't think keeping Lavi is a good idea and there are many good coaching candidates available. I also think Bryz should be bought out this year although I understand it's more financial than anything. IMO management is trying to save face with both Lavi and Bryz and I think the both of them should have been let go this offseason so the team could move forward without distractions. Holmgren ..so far keeps sidestepping rather than putting his best foot forward....

We shall see what happens with the draft and his signings..he needs to do much better

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05-28-2013, 02:34 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OccupySouthBroadSt View Post
Last season was by far one of his worst IMO. He went for the homeruns when he needed to play more small ball.
i disagree. Home run swings was the only play. It's NEVER a good option to pay sub optimal talent at high prices (Carle) long term. Yes, he would have helped this last season, where we likely would have not really done anything anyway. I would have easily gave him 6 m, for 1 year, but the 6 years were the issue for me.

Had we hit on parise and suter, we would have likely ha a much different season. But after these 2, the talent dropoff for UFAs was significant, and nobody worth committing to long term.

In one year increments, screw it...get whoever helps, it's not my money.

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Old
05-28-2013, 03:23 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DecadesofFutility View Post
My Holmgren GM Rating: D
These ratings don't make a lot of sense...

Quote:
Free agency: C
Some good some bad, most OK.
UFAs have been some good, some bad, most ok. That is pretty much the best you can hope from any GM. Not every signing is going to be great, no matter how good a GM is. He gets a C though.

Quote:
Undrafted free agents: C
Undrated free agents he gets a C, with no explanation. Don't mention that the Flyers signed Read, Gus, and Bobrovsky, and a number of guys on the Phantoms that may some day be on the Flyers. But yeah, he gets a C. Nothing to see here.

Quote:
Drafting: C
Only number #1 Picks have chance of being a regular NHL player.
No #1 Defenseman prospects drafted.
No #1 Goalie prospects drafted.
Drafting he gets a C because he has not drafted a #1 goalie or defenseman and only #1 picks have a chance at being an NHL player. I've got news for you, drafting a #1 defenseman and goalie is not an easy thing to do. In fact, there probably aren't even 30 players worthy of the #1 defenseman or goalie moniker in this league at any given time. His drafting hasn't been perfect, but the Flyers have been solid in the first round, and the later rounds (which is a crapshoot for any GM) has been ok (Lauridsen, Nodl, Ghost, Wellwood, McGinn, Rinaldo, etc). Also there is this guy named Anthony Stolarz in the system who was drafted in the second round. Too early to tell what he will be, but he's certainly a solid goaltending prospect. But let's give him a C anyway because he hasn't drafted 10000 all stars.

Quote:
Trades: D
Holmgren has made 8 good trades out of a total of 17.
Pronger trade was bad.
Not even sure where to begin with this one. There have been more than 17 trades made, for one. Which 8 were good and which 9 were bad? What of the rest of the trades? What was your problem with the Pronger trade?

Quote:
Cap management: F
Holmgren’s cap management is atrocious,
overpays, salary dumps mismanages contracts.
This one I can see where you are coming from. His cap management is clearly his biggest weakness.

Quote:
Intangibles: F
Builds Team backwards, Lack of Patience developing players,
Lack of Plan for future
How is the team being built backwards? Which players have been a lack of patience besides Bob (who I assume is the one you are talking about)?

Homer may not be the best GM in the league, but this "report card" would make him seem like the worst in the league, which is not true by any measure.

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Old
05-28-2013, 03:30 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by achdumeingute View Post
i disagree. Home run swings was the only play. It's NEVER a good option to pay sub optimal talent at high prices (Carle) long term. Yes, he would have helped this last season, where we likely would have not really done anything anyway. I would have easily gave him 6 m, for 1 year, but the 6 years were the issue for me.

Had we hit on parise and suter, we would have likely ha a much different season. But after these 2, the talent dropoff for UFAs was significant, and nobody worth committing to long term.

In one year increments, screw it...get whoever helps, it's not my money.
No it wasn't. The weber swing was one thing and more understandable but as Meltzer himself explained the Suter and Parise attempt was a pipe dream from the outset and a poor miscalc that led to Jagr and Carle going elsewhere which did impact the team since their replacements didn't have much added value.

The only reason Carle got offered 6 years at that ridik price was b/c Holmgren allowed him to go on the open market in the first place even though he said he thought he could keep Carle at a home team discount earlier. Meltzer pointed out that during the season they had enough tagging space to get a more favorable deal done but they extended Coburn and others and left him and Jagr hanging in the offseason going after a pipe dream.

Anyway, there is a lot more to it but Holmgren had a bad offseason and it included him and Snider telling their coach to implement a system that was more defensive to help their supposed franchise goalie who should know how to be the best player on the ice and bail the team out when mistakes are made. This caused the team to be confused for most of the year as Hartnell lamented post season.....

Holmgren bears a lot of responsibility for missing the playoffs b/c he didn't know how to take that next step that was necessary. He had an ill-assembled team (especially on D--lack of PMD) much of it the result of trying to accomodate a goalie that didn't fit the coach's system to begin with. Injuries didn't help but they still didn't have the right personnel...Holmgren could have and should have done a lot better but so should everybody else..coach, players and even the owner.

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Old
05-28-2013, 11:15 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OccupySouthBroadSt View Post
No it wasn't. The weber swing was one thing and more understandable but as Meltzer himself explained the Suter and Parise attempt was a pipe dream from the outset and a poor miscalc that led to Jagr and Carle going elsewhere which did impact the team since their replacements didn't have much added value.

The only reason Carle got offered 6 years at that ridik price was b/c Holmgren allowed him to go on the open market in the first place even though he said he thought he could keep Carle at a home team discount earlier. Meltzer pointed out that during the season they had enough tagging space to get a more favorable deal done but they extended Coburn and others and left him and Jagr hanging in the offseason going after a pipe dream.

Anyway, there is a lot more to it but Holmgren had a bad offseason and it included him and Snider telling their coach to implement a system that was more defensive to help their supposed franchise goalie who should know how to be the best player on the ice and bail the team out when mistakes are made. This caused the team to be confused for most of the year as Hartnell lamented post season.....

Holmgren bears a lot of responsibility for missing the playoffs b/c he didn't know how to take that next step that was necessary. He had an ill-assembled team (especially on D--lack of PMD) much of it the result of trying to accomodate a goalie that didn't fit the coach's system to begin with. Injuries didn't help but they still didn't have the right personnel...Holmgren could have and should have done a lot better but so should everybody else..coach, players and even the owner.
jagr and carle wouldn't make this team a contender....please...so our season may have been slightly better...bfd.

We were not a contender with them here the year before.

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Old
05-29-2013, 08:19 AM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by achdumeingute View Post
We were not a contender with them here the year before.
Because the coaching staff could not develop a strategy to beat a hard forechecking opponent. That carried over to this season as well and unless changes occur will happen again next year. Losing Jagr and Carle didn't hurt as much as the injuries to the defensive corps but still, strategically, the team was behind the eight ball against any team that pressed them in their own end when they had the puck.

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Old
05-29-2013, 08:34 AM
  #44
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For those who think that not landing Suter and/or Parise was crippling to this team this season, Pittsburgh and Detroit also tried and failed to land one or both, and they seem to be doing just fine.

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Old
05-29-2013, 09:10 AM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DecadesofFutility View Post
I was wondering about the job performance of Paul Holmgren?
I have my own opinions about the subject but I was thinking others might
want to post their opinions as well.

Feel free to Grade his overall performance as GM and last years as well.
Feel free to praise or vent as appropriate to your feelings on the subject.

Hopefully some will have interest in this thread.

My Holmgren GM Rating: D C+ If he had hit on the Weber deal or the other deal last summer it would be higher.

Free agency: C
Some good some bad, most OK.

Undrafted free agents: C

Drafting: C B+

Only number #1 Picks have chance of being a regular NHL player.
No #1 Defenseman prospects drafted.
No #1 Goalie prospects drafted.

Trades: D
Holmgren has made 8 good trades out of a total of 17.
Pronger trade was bad. You have to be kidding? Brutal! I hated the trade at 1st but when Chris played here that changed my mind.

Cap management: F C+ Does a very good job on the edge.
Holmgren’s cap management is atrocious,
overpays, salary dumps mismanages contracts.

Intangibles: F A Love this team
[/B]Builds Team backwards, Lack of Patience developing players,
Lack of Plan for future
As you can see we agree to disagree. Your statement about the Pronger trade . Interesting to say the least.

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Old
06-03-2013, 12:54 AM
  #46
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mess

the flyers are a mess. the worse organization in hockey. you can not trade draft choices and build a cup winner. trading up to draft marshall and skipping p.k. was classic.

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06-03-2013, 12:58 AM
  #47
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the flyers are a mess. the worse organization in hockey. you can not trade draft choices and build a cup winner. trading up to draft marshall and skipping p.k. was classic.
Did Edmonton and the Islanders fold?

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06-03-2013, 01:06 AM
  #48
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the flyers are a mess. the worse organization in hockey. you can not trade draft choices and build a cup winner. trading up to draft marshall and skipping p.k. was classic.
There was 28 other teams that passed up on Subban some even twice, it's really hard to call them out for that. It's not like Subban was some kind of phenom either, it's easy to look back at drafts with the benefit of hindsight.


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06-03-2013, 06:50 AM
  #49
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Just sayin....

If I could go back in time to the Pronger trade....I make the deal 10 times out of 10 to acquire the future hall of famer and one of the most unique and dominant defencemen i've seen in my day.

The guy could drag a newborn by the hair of its bald nutsack to the Stanley Cup final.

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06-12-2013, 10:39 AM
  #50
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Drafting B+
Signing undrafted players A+
Signing UFA's (overagers) B-
Cap Management C+
Length of contracts F
Handling goaltenders F
Trades A

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