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2013 NHL Draft Talk Part 4: Flyers own the 11th overall pick

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Old
05-26-2013, 10:34 AM
  #776
DecadesofFutility
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So your telling me for the next 10 drafts if a center is BPA available,
that is what the Flyers should pick each year.
This BPA philosophy handicaps this team providing no guidance on filling their future needs.

I still find that BPA just for public consumption--teams claim that is how they pick.
But, in practice that is not always the case on how the actually pick.
They just state so-and-so was the BPA on their draftboard.
The Flyers minors system lacks good quality offensive minded defensemen.
This team needs to fill areas of need with highly rated prospects, not just stockpile centermen.

If there was an offensive defensman I rated as 12-15 best player available, and a
center who was 1-10, I am taking the defenseman.
Its not a reach!!!
I am taking the BPA for the future of the team, which is a defenseman.

I am not suggesting you take the 30th rated player a defenseman at 11,
but if the ratings are close, I pick the defenseman.

I hope all the centers go 1-10 because if BPA is a center, I think I will have a migrane.
In fact if BPA is a center, I say trade the #11 pick for a young established PMD.
Have no need or desire for anymore centers.

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05-26-2013, 10:44 AM
  #777
LegionOfDoom91
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Our system lacks quality prospects in general.

Anyway I'm done with this argument. It's been explained to you numerous times by multiple posters and for whatever reason you completely ignore it.

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05-26-2013, 10:46 AM
  #778
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Originally Posted by LegionOfDoom91 View Post
Most teams when drafting forwards prefer centers because if it doesn't work you could move them to the wing. The transition is easier from center to wing opposed to wing to center.
Still, a certain percentage of them may not make that transition as easily as others.
A player like Briere, for example, has always been most comfortable and performs better as a center. Now he's forced to be a winger and struggling.

The Flyers usually go with forwards with their 1st rounders, with Sbisa and Pitkanen being exceptions. It's probably more within their core competencies for the Flyers staff to scout NHL caliber forwards versus D men. D men are typically harder to project so I understand the philosophy, but teams that can manage to find and draft top young defensemen may have a distinct advantage, in certain respects, over those who can't or won't.

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05-26-2013, 11:33 AM
  #779
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Originally Posted by LegionOfDoom91 View Post
Most teams when drafting forwards prefer centers because if it doesn't work you could move them to the wing. The transition is easier from center to wing opposed to wing to center.
That's not the main reason. Center's are more valuable players because they impact so many parts of the game. They have (or supposed to anyway) as much responsibility defensively as they do offensively. They are the first ones back amongst the forwards and they support defenseman down low and in the slot in the defensive zone. That's why you always hear the term "shut down center" and never hear "shutdown winger". And of course you have faceoffs which are important on their own.

Along with a #1 defenseman, the good teams are deep up the middle. Every year we hear teams at the deadline or in the offseason looking for centers. Look at the lottery teams and you will see most (not all) lack that depth up the middle.

Think of it in baseball terms. The guys on the corners (1B, 3B, RF, LF) are more offensive guys- the HR hitters. The guys up the middle (C, 2B, SS, CF) have to first and foremost be able to play defensively. The guys up the middle who can hit as well are the special ones. That is why middle of the diamond players come at a premium on draft day, the offseason, and the trade deadline.


Last edited by FLYguy3911: 05-26-2013 at 11:48 AM.
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05-26-2013, 04:45 PM
  #780
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Couturier, Sbisa, JVR, Giroux, Downie, Carter, Richards, Pitkanen

These have been our last 12 years of drafting in the first round. Should we really be complaining about who they picked? We have ZERO busts and usually pick later in the first round.

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05-26-2013, 06:15 PM
  #781
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tripod View Post
Couturier, Sbisa, JVR, Giroux, Downie, Carter, Richards, Pitkanen

These have been our last 12 years of drafting in the first round. Should we really be complaining about who they picked? We have ZERO busts and usually pick later in the first round.
Well, Sbisa is nothing special at all. Yeah, he's still only 23 but I don't think he'll ever be worthy of his 1st round selection. Other than that, I agree. They hit a lot more than they miss, that's for sure.

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05-26-2013, 06:17 PM
  #782
Brayden Pattison
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DecadesofFutility View Post
So your telling me for the next 10 drafts if a center is BPA available,
that is what the Flyers should pick each year.
This BPA philosophy handicaps this team providing no guidance on filling their future needs.

I still find that BPA just for public consumption--teams claim that is how they pick.
But, in practice that is not always the case on how the actually pick.
They just state so-and-so was the BPA on their draftboard.
The Flyers minors system lacks good quality offensive minded defensemen.
This team needs to fill areas of need with highly rated prospects, not just stockpile centermen.

If there was an offensive defensman I rated as 12-15 best player available, and a
center who was 1-10, I am taking the defenseman.
Its not a reach!!!
I am taking the BPA for the future of the team, which is a defenseman.

I am not suggesting you take the 30th rated player a defenseman at 11,
but if the ratings are close, I pick the defenseman.

I hope all the centers go 1-10 because if BPA is a center, I think I will have a migrane.
In fact if BPA is a center, I say trade the #11 pick for a young established PMD.
Have no need or desire for anymore centers.
The 2005 draft is a good example of why you take BPA. For reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_NH...raft#Round_one
Lets say someone grabbed Mark Staal earlier than 12. If the Kings at 11 chose to pick a dman instead of Kopitar, the next 2 selected were Sasha Pokulok (0 NHL games played) and Ryan Parent.

Christ, if you combine their names it even comes out to Ryan Pulock. How much more of an omen do you need?

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05-26-2013, 06:30 PM
  #783
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Broad St Cyberbully View Post
The 2005 draft is a good example of why you take BPA. For reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_NH...raft#Round_one
Lets say someone grabbed Mark Staal earlier than 12. If the Kings at 11 chose to pick a dman instead of Kopitar, the next 2 selected were Sasha Pokulok (0 NHL games played) and Ryan Parent.

Christ, if you combine their names it even comes out to Ryan Pulock. How much more of an omen do you need?
Genius!

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Old
05-26-2013, 06:42 PM
  #784
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Broad St Cyberbully View Post
The 2005 draft is a good example of why you take BPA. For reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_NH...raft#Round_one
Lets say someone grabbed Mark Staal earlier than 12. If the Kings at 11 chose to pick a dman instead of Kopitar, the next 2 selected were Sasha Pokulok (0 NHL games played) and Ryan Parent.

Christ, if you combine their names it even comes out to Ryan Pulock. How much more of an omen do you need?
I'm not really sure that this post is good fodder to support your argument. In that draft, even if those guys you are talking about didn't turn out that good, at that time they may have been good picks, even if not the "BPA" according to ISS. I honestly don't remember, but at least in Ryan Parent's case, even when he was on the Flyers in the beginning he was considered a good prospect. I've said it before and I'll say it again: reaching to fill an immediate need is not a good idea, but drafting a guy who is on the same level or even just slightly behind to fill a desperate organizational need is fine. Do you really think that when picking players in the draft the organization does not take into account who they have on the NHL roster and in the pipeline? My bet would be team's make their lists/boards/whatever based on, among other things, what their organization needs.

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05-26-2013, 06:56 PM
  #785
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOREacek View Post
Well, Sbisa is nothing special at all. Yeah, he's still only 23 but I don't think he'll ever be worthy of his 1st round selection. Other than that, I agree. They hit a lot more than they miss, that's for sure.
He's better than Clownie.

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05-26-2013, 07:26 PM
  #786
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
In that draft, even if those guys you are talking about didn't turn out that good, at that time they may have been good picks, even if not the "BPA" according to ISS. I honestly don't remember, but at least in Ryan Parent's case, even when he was on the Flyers in the beginning he was considered a good prospect.
I judge a draft by end results, not by who was academically the best pick at the time.
Quote:
Do you really think that when picking players in the draft the organization does not take into account who they have on the NHL roster and in the pipeline? My bet would be team's make their lists/boards/whatever based on, among other things, what their organization needs.
Not all teams use the BPA theory, and the Flyers apparently use it only in the 1st round.

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05-26-2013, 07:41 PM
  #787
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People make much too big a deal about BPA. All teams have different rankings. Whoever the Flyers take at #11 will be the guy who they deem "BPA" at that spot. If that is someone that CSS has ranked at #20, who are we to judge whether or not he is the true best player available?

People made a big deal when we took Laughton last year. Turns out the Flyers scouts had a pretty good hunch on him.

The fact is that very little separates most of these players at this stage. Unless a first tier prospect drops to #11, we have very little knowledge to judge considering most (probably all) of us have not watched nearly enough of every player that we could potentially pick.

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Old
05-27-2013, 11:33 AM
  #788
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOREacek View Post
Well, Sbisa is nothing special at all. Yeah, he's still only 23 but I don't think he'll ever be worthy of his 1st round selection. Other than that, I agree. They hit a lot more than they miss, that's for sure.
He's 23 and has already played 236 NHL games. He's already proven his worth as a first rounder whether you deem him "nothing special" or not.

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05-27-2013, 01:51 PM
  #789
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At this point, I am starting to really like Ryan Pulock. While it seems like he may take a little longer to get into the NHL, a RH 100 MPH point shot could be a pretty useful tool...

My Ranking of realistic Dmen:
Ristolainen
Pulock
Nurse (Just screams bust)
Zadorov

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05-27-2013, 02:08 PM
  #790
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Quote:
Originally Posted by feedingschennzy View Post
At this point, I am starting to really like Ryan Pulock. While it seems like he may take a little longer to get into the NHL, a RH 100 MPH point shot could be a pretty useful tool...

My Ranking of realistic Dmen:
Ristolainen
Pulock
Nurse (Just screams bust)
Zadorov
I'm not sold on Risto's offensive game. I know he plays in a stingy defensive pro league right now, but I don't see where he's put up significant point totals at any level. They say he's a good puck mover, so there's that, but I'd feel more comfortable seeing better offensive numbers.

By contrast Nurse stepped up his offensive production by over 300% versus his last season. I'm not sure why he would scream bust.

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05-27-2013, 03:09 PM
  #791
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Ovechkin didn't exactly pile on the points before he was drafted by the Caps either. Talbot was a prolific scorer in juniors. Really, the points a player puts up before getting to the NHL are not 100% translated to how they will do with the best players in the world.

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05-27-2013, 03:40 PM
  #792
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A few scouting reports from Renegade Stylings on the Prospect boards
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1436727
http://whl-from-above.blogspot.ca/20...-2013-nhl.html

Quote:
#3 - Ryan Pulock - Brandon Wheat Kings - RD - 6'1 - 211 -

Pulock is a defenceman that does a bit of everything for Brandon. His skating has improved immensely over the past 18 months, he passes the puck well, has the hardest shot of anyone in the draft, throws some massive hits and plays both key minutes on the top PP and PK units. His leadership qualities are through the roof, serving as the Wheat Kings captain this year and being famous for being a character kid. Wouldn't be shocked if some teams like him as a top 6-7 player for the draft, although I think he's just in the tier below that. He's definitely right in that mix of players who could go in the top 10, so it will be interesting to see how much his "character" can bump him up in the draft. Could be one of those guys that plays one more year of junior and then makes the jump to the NHL.

NHL Style Comparable: A Right-Handed Jason Garrison
Top End Potential: Top 3 D, First Unit PP, Second Unit PK
Pick Prediction: 12th-15th overall
Quote:
#5 - Josh Morrissey - Prince Albert Raiders - LD - 6'0 - 185 -

Morrissey is a smooth-skating two way defender for Prince Albert. He possesses a good outlet pass, stretch pass and a very strong shot. He likes to rush the puck and push the pace, with the smarts to not cost his team defensively. Has played top pairing minutes since he first entered the league as a 16 year old. Still can improve defensively and will need to add strength to his frame in order to continue to improve his defensive game. Doesn't back down physically and can get in other players faces. He has a nice edge to his game although it's an area that I would still consider inconsistent. I rank him in the 15-20 range, just a step below Lazar, but the two have been neck and neck for me all season.

NHL Style Comparable: Keith Yandle
Top End Potential: Top 3 D, First Unit PP, Second Unit PK
Pick Prediction: 15th-20th overall

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05-27-2013, 04:33 PM
  #793
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I would love either one of these guys. Morrissey is almost 6 months younger too. Will fill out some still.

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05-27-2013, 05:12 PM
  #794
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Morrissey is a smooth-skating two way defender for Prince Albert. He possesses a good outlet pass, stretch pass and a very strong shot. He likes to rush the puck and push the pace, with the smarts to not cost his team defensively.
If true, would fit with Flyers.

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05-27-2013, 05:15 PM
  #795
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Originally Posted by FlyingPhilly View Post
Ovechkin didn't exactly pile on the points before he was drafted by the Caps either. Talbot was a prolific scorer in juniors. Really, the points a player puts up before getting to the NHL are not 100% translated to how they will do with the best players in the world.
While I don't think those are good comparables, I get your point. I just would want to see more production at some level for a supposed two-way/offensive prospect before taking the chance on him with an 11th pick. I prefer Nurse, Pulock, Zadorov. or even Morrissey as far as defenders...

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05-27-2013, 06:21 PM
  #796
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Originally Posted by FLYguy3911 View Post
He's 23 and has already played 236 NHL games. He's already proven his worth as a first rounder whether you deem him "nothing special" or not.
There were players such as Michael Del Zotto, Derek Stepan, Jordan Eberle, John Carlson, Justin Schultz, Vyacheslav Voynov and Adam Henrique who were taken after him. All better than him. Some of them even being 2nd rounders. He is not worthy of where he was drafted. He's played a lot of games, big whoop. He's mediocre.

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05-27-2013, 06:28 PM
  #797
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Originally Posted by SCOREacek View Post
There were players such as Michael Del Zotto, Derek Stepan, Jordan Eberle, John Carlson, Justin Schultz, Vyacheslav Voynov and Adam Henrique who were taken after him. All better than him. Some of them even being 2nd rounders. He is not worthy of where he was drafted. He's played a lot of games, big whoop. He's mediocre.
They are better offensively, but are they better defensively than Sbisa?

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05-27-2013, 06:29 PM
  #798
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Originally Posted by DecadesofFutility View Post
So your telling me for the next 10 drafts if a center is BPA available,
that is what the Flyers should pick each year.
This BPA philosophy handicaps this team providing no guidance on filling their future needs.

I still find that BPA just for public consumption--teams claim that is how they pick.
But, in practice that is not always the case on how the actually pick.
They just state so-and-so was the BPA on their draftboard.
The Flyers minors system lacks good quality offensive minded defensemen.
This team needs to fill areas of need with highly rated prospects, not just stockpile centermen.

If there was an offensive defensman I rated as 12-15 best player available, and a
center who was 1-10, I am taking the defenseman.
Its not a reach!!!
I am taking the BPA for the future of the team, which is a defenseman.

I am not suggesting you take the 30th rated player a defenseman at 11,
but if the ratings are close, I pick the defenseman.

I hope all the centers go 1-10 because if BPA is a center, I think I will have a migrane.
In fact if BPA is a center, I say trade the #11 pick for a young established PMD.
Have no need or desire for anymore centers.
To me, BPA can be a viable strategy to good teams picking in the 22-30 range who have more flexibility to improve their team

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05-27-2013, 06:42 PM
  #799
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SolidSnakeUS View Post
They are better offensively, but are they better defensively than Sbisa?
Voynov and Carlson are out of the defensemen for sure, you could maybe argue for Del Zotto. All of them are definitely better offensively though.

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05-27-2013, 06:59 PM
  #800
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Originally Posted by feedingschennzy View Post
To me, BPA can be a viable strategy to good teams picking in the 22-30 range who have more flexibility to improve their team
The NHL draft is different than any other draft. You'd be lucky to get a handful of NHL players out of every draft. Most teams go BPA in the first round because its the most likely round to get an NHL contributor out of.

It's not football where you draft for needs and the guy is on roster for the next year. These kids are drafted with the possibly of them making the big club in a couple of years down the road assuming they progress like they should. NHL rosters change drastically (especially the Flyers) over a year or two alone.

If anything a team like the Flyers with barely any resemblance of a good prospect pool could use any type of high end prospects regardless of their positions.

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