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Would the Habs benefit from a Heavyweight enforcer? Part 3

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05-27-2013, 05:57 PM
  #826
Kimota
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Anyone that has watched the Wings knows that they are tough, they play a physical style. And that's from the most talented guy to the lowest rookie. It's just that team toughness doesn't matter much when Chris Neil gets in your face or when the Bruins decides to goon it up.

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05-27-2013, 06:08 PM
  #827
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
So, you too think Babcock will turn his group into a dumb dump and chase team ?
If that is what you inferred from post, well then. Your one line posts with lack of insight have reached an all-time low, even for you.

My only point was that it is 2013 now. The west is no longer big and bad, the North Eastern division is the toughest in hockey and probably the best division in hockey. Habs/Sens/B's/Leafs all making the playoffs.

Detroit will never be a team full of goons, but they will address the issue, as we should and most likely will.

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05-27-2013, 06:43 PM
  #828
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How exactly is the NorthEast division the toughest division in the league?
Toronto has a 4th line of goons that can't skate or handle a puck. They have big Dmen but for the most part their D are mediocre.
Did Ottawa become a "tough" team because they outmuscled the Habs? That is not a very hard task to accomplish. Neil will hit and fight but he's one forward who plays under 14 minutes. They have big dmen but we all saw Gryba get crushed by Orpik. And their D are not very tough compared to a team like Saint-Louis or LA.
Boston is the only team in our division that can physically compete with the Western juggernauts like LA, Saint-Louis, and Chicago.
And by all means Detroit will not need to toughen up because their fast and skilled players will simply skate/pass around the Leafs and Sens "tough" players.

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05-27-2013, 07:07 PM
  #829
Monctonscout
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Originally Posted by HabsDan93 View Post
How exactly is the NorthEast division the toughest division in the league?
Toronto has a 4th line of goons that can't skate or handle a puck. They have big Dmen but for the most part their D are mediocre.
Did Ottawa become a "tough" team because they outmuscled the Habs? That is not a very hard task to accomplish. Neil will hit and fight but he's one forward who plays under 14 minutes. They have big dmen but we all saw Gryba get crushed by Orpik. And their D are not very tough compared to a team like Saint-Louis or LA.
Boston is the only team in our division that can physically compete with the Western juggernauts like LA, Saint-Louis, and Chicago.
And by all means Detroit will not need to toughen up because their fast and skilled players will simply skate/pass around the Leafs and Sens "tough" players.
I think the West being tougher is a myth. Boston and Pittsburgh are as good/big/tough as any team left in the West.

If Chicago was that big/tough/skilled they would ahve never been down 3-1 against an aging Detroit team that barely made the playoffs.

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05-27-2013, 07:13 PM
  #830
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Originally Posted by Monctonscout View Post
I think the West being tougher is a myth. Boston and Pittsburgh are as good/big/tough as any team left in the West.

If Chicago was that big/tough/skilled they would ahve never been down 3-1 against an aging Detroit team that barely made the playoffs.

100% agree

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05-27-2013, 07:30 PM
  #831
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Originally Posted by Monctonscout View Post
I think the West being tougher is a myth. Boston and Pittsburgh are as good/big/tough as any team left in the West.

If Chicago was that big/tough/skilled they would ahve never been down 3-1 against an aging Detroit team that barely made the playoffs.
The 6 other Eastern teams in the playoffs would have lost to any of the 8 Western playoff teams.

Coaching is the reason Chicago was down 3-1 against an "aging" Detroit team, that happens to have 2 productive rookies on their third line.

The North-East division being the strongest division is the real myth.

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05-27-2013, 07:33 PM
  #832
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
DRW are, as of now, playing in a way more physical conference (West) and very few of us remember the last time they played a decent enforcer...

if anything, they'll give hockey clinics to any team willing to run around trying to go head hunting.

DRW arent that physical of a team, rarely have a goon in their lineup - even less a good one... and I have yet to see teams trying to intimidate them, not even western teams...
I like it when its obvious that you are just talking and dont really know what you are talking about.

Eastern Conference, NE Division -- 152 fights.

Western Conference, Central Div -- 106 fights.

Columbus accounted for 1/3 of those fights with 34 (2nd in the NHL) and only 14 of those Columbus fights were against teams in the Central Division.

Holland will be forced to adapt or the Red Wings will become like the Canadiens. Great on offense, easy to beat down physically.

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05-27-2013, 07:37 PM
  #833
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
I like it when its obvious that you are just talking and dont really know what you are talking about.

Eastern Conference, NE Division -- 152 fights.

Western Conference, Central Div -- 106 fights.

Columbus accounted for 1/3 of those fights with 34 (2nd in the NHL) and only 14 of those Columbus fights were against teams in the Central Division.

Holland will be forced to adapt or the Red Wings will become like the Canadiens. Great on offense, easy to beat down physically.
So Colombus had 2nd most fights in the NHL... Colombus didnt make the playoffs..
They will not become like the Canadiens because they ARE in fact bigger than the Canadiens, and are much stronger mentally. It is not possible to beat the Redwings by attempting to beat them down physically.

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05-27-2013, 08:15 PM
  #834
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Originally Posted by HabsDan93 View Post
So Colombus had 2nd most fights in the NHL... Colombus didnt make the playoffs..
They will not become like the Canadiens because they ARE in fact bigger than the Canadiens, and are much stronger mentally. It is not possible to beat the Redwings by attempting to beat them down physically.
Columbus and Detroit only had 3 fights this season when they played each other.

Toronto had the most in the NHL and made the playoffs.

Boston had only two less than the Blue Jackets and the 4th most in the NHL and are still in the playoffs.

Now what?

Detroit will have to adjust their team to compete in the new Division. We will see this offseason, right?

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05-28-2013, 01:42 AM
  #835
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
I like it when its obvious that you are just talking and dont really know what you are talking about.

Eastern Conference, NE Division -- 152 fights.

Western Conference, Central Div -- 106 fights.

Columbus accounted for 1/3 of those fights with 34 (2nd in the NHL) and only 14 of those Columbus fights were against teams in the Central Division.

Holland will be forced to adapt or the Red Wings will become like the Canadiens. Great on offense, easy to beat down physically.
Hang on, I thought that when there are less fights that's just a sign of how tough the teams are and that they are stop fighting and play hockey? Like you were claiming during the Boston/Toronto series.

How do we know that the fact there were less fights in the west isn't actually a sign of their toughness?

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05-28-2013, 07:30 AM
  #836
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Originally Posted by habsfanatics View Post
If that is what you inferred from post, well then. Your one line posts with lack of insight have reached an all-time low, even for you.

My only point was that it is 2013 now. The west is no longer big and bad, the North Eastern division is the toughest in hockey and probably the best division in hockey. Habs/Sens/B's/Leafs all making the playoffs.

Detroit will never be a team full of goons, but they will address the issue, as we should and most likely will.
thanks for the laugh.


Yes, and previous season 4 atlantic teams made the playoffs, guess they're also in the best division in hockey, right ?


Last edited by ECWHSWI: 05-28-2013 at 07:36 AM.
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05-28-2013, 08:27 AM
  #837
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One big guy playing 5 minutes a game, only in the regular season would make little or no difference.

The key will be draft strategy and if you look at who they just hired and remember how Shane Churla played the game it might be a peek at what is down the road.

I attended the 1983 draft in Montreal (link). I remember the picture in the local paper the day after (Journal de Montreal?) with these kid lined up, some real beef with the exception of Turcotte.

That's the type of draft they need now, hopefully with a couple of dmen in that mold included.

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05-28-2013, 10:46 AM
  #838
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I was on the Collberg thread and was told to report here right away .
We were supposed to trade all the smurfs to make SouthernHab happy

Then we would sign ORR to a $3.5m contract and add McGratton & Bordeleau

At the Draft Combine MB & TT & Churla would sit at the measurement station and scratch off their list anyone less than 6'3


Last edited by overlords: 05-29-2013 at 11:25 AM.
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05-28-2013, 11:35 AM
  #839
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Originally Posted by Chili View Post
One big guy playing 5 minutes a game, only in the regular season would make little or no difference.
I think there's a correlation between the need to repeat something over and over and over again and it not being true.

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05-28-2013, 11:41 AM
  #840
Monctonscout
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Originally Posted by HabsDan93 View Post
The 6 other Eastern teams in the playoffs would have lost to any of the 8 Western playoff teams.

Coaching is the reason Chicago was down 3-1 against an "aging" Detroit team, that happens to have 2 productive rookies on their third line.

The North-East division being the strongest division is the real myth.
That's pure speculation that can't be proven.

On the flip side I can say that the #8 seed in the East would beat #1 in the West.

The last 4 cup winners, 2 have come out of each conference. Boston finished 2nd in their division and there was only a few points between the #1 to #4 seed, that tells me it's a strong/deep division.

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05-28-2013, 11:46 AM
  #841
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Originally Posted by Chili View Post
One big guy playing 5 minutes a game, only in the regular season would make little or no difference.

The key will be draft strategy and if you look at who they just hired and remember how Shane Churla played the game it might be a peek at what is down the road.

I attended the 1983 draft in Montreal (link). I remember the picture in the local paper the day after (Journal de Montreal?) with these kid lined up, some real beef with the exception of Turcotte.

That's the type of draft they need now, hopefully with a couple of dmen in that mold included.
I don't see Churla's style of play dictating any drafting philosophy. MB and TT are still the bosses. Plus he didn't get this particular job by just knowing tough guys and goons.

I think it's not just about the 5 minutes a game, it's guys knowing that payer is there(feared fighter) and he'll take care of business if needed. ask any former or current NHLer if it helps.

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05-28-2013, 11:51 AM
  #842
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I think there's a correlation between the need to repeat something over and over and over again and it not being true.
Someone can bring up John Ferguson, but he wasn't a 4th liner. He played with Beliveau, he had a great wrist shot. You want some size and toughness but they have to be able to play the game.

And if you look at free agents, you have to overpay and in a cap world it diminishes any value. People like Prust but how much longer can his body take the punishment before his contract is a burden?

The best solution is to draft players to fill roles so that you can replace from within on an ongoing basis.

I'll be surprised if there isn't a size & toughness emphasis on the draft going forward. That doesn't mean ignoring skill, just a realization of the types of players it takes to be successful in the playoffs.

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05-28-2013, 12:08 PM
  #843
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Originally Posted by Monctonscout View Post
I don't see Churla's style of play dictating any drafting philosophy. MB and TT are still the bosses. Plus he didn't get this particular job by just knowing tough guys and goons.

I think it's not just about the 5 minutes a game, it's guys knowing that payer is there(feared fighter) and he'll take care of business if needed. ask any former or current NHLer if it helps.
I didn't call Churla a goon. In fact, the majority of 'tough guys' in the NHL didn't play that role until they turned pro, so pretty tough to scout.

But he would know what it takes to play a tougher role and I don't think that hurts on a scouting side. I don't know enough about his work to comment on his philosophy.

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05-28-2013, 01:41 PM
  #844
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Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
And where do you base those stats on exactly? It's subjective at best.

However, to think that rats won't think twice before doing those cheap shots if the instigator rule was killed and with a few tough guys on the other side is refusing to see reality in my opinion.
Looking at Majors and fines/suspensions would give a decent approximation of dirty hits thrown. But it's besides the point, if enforcers reduced the likelyhood of dirty plays there would be stats to back it up even if it was based on something subjective.

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05-28-2013, 01:45 PM
  #845
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Originally Posted by izzy75 View Post
I think there's a correlation between the need to repeat something over and over and over again and it not being true.
You mean like the people clamoring for size/toughness for the last 10 years

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05-28-2013, 10:58 PM
  #846
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Looking at Majors and fines/suspensions would give a decent approximation of dirty hits thrown. But it's besides the point, if enforcers reduced the likelyhood of dirty plays there would be stats to back it up even if it was based on something subjective.
You're kidding, right?

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05-29-2013, 05:19 PM
  #847
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This thread is a joke and the fact it is on part 3 makes it even worse.

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05-29-2013, 05:26 PM
  #848
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This thread is a joke and the fact it is on part 3 makes it even worse.
More like part 78

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05-29-2013, 05:59 PM
  #849
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This thread is a joke and the fact it is on part 3 makes it even worse.
We need somewhere for SouthernHab to post so he doesn't bother everybody else in the "grown up" threads.

Even though he stills trolls everywhere...

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05-29-2013, 06:45 PM
  #850
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We need somewhere for SouthernHab to post so he doesn't bother everybody else in the "grown up" threads.

Even though he stills trolls everywhere...
We have a philosophical disagreement with regard to hockey.

You obviously disagree with my philosophy. Fine. You are not a troll to me. You simply disagree with me. And I dont mind debating you regarding that.

I will give up believing in my philosophy when teams across the NHL abandon the use of enforcers. Right now, the trend seems to be going in the opposite direction of your philosophy. Sestito just signed a nice extension.

Dont take it so deeply personal. We disagree. Big deal. Internet message boards are filled with disagreement.

Have a pleasant evening.

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