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Henrik Lundqvist; will he stay or go?

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05-27-2013, 09:02 PM
  #126
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Originally Posted by Cake or Death View Post
It's hard to say with how utterly atrocious this team is at retiring numbers. Cook and Boucher aren't retired but Graves and Richter are? Are you ****ing kidding me? Richter's number is retired and he's marginally in the team's all-time top 5 goalies. Dave Kerr won a Cup but also has a Vezina and a few AST selections. Chuck Rayner won a Hart in net on some lousy teams. Point is, there's no way to see with this organization who they'll retire. They're completely retarded about it and it seems to be more about popularity than who actually deserves it.
Graves is 3rd all time on the team in goals.
Richter is 1st in wins all time.

Hard to argue with either of those guys, IMHO. I'd like to hear who's ahead of Richter besides Giacomin and (arguably) Lundqvist.

Equally hard for me, or you, to intelligently comment about guys that played in the 1920's. You can read other people's opinions about players like Cook, but it's hard to form an opinion about them without having seen them.

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05-27-2013, 09:04 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by haohmaru View Post
Richter is 1st in wins all time.
Which Henke will blow past

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05-27-2013, 09:04 PM
  #128
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What about if we change my post to: 0% he should be retired if he leaves now, and 99,9% he should be if he stays his whole career.
Haha. Hey, it's your opinion. I probably should have just respected it as such and not said anything in the first place

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05-27-2013, 09:11 PM
  #129
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Which Henke will blow past
If Henrik has a typical Henrik year, he'll be ~10 wins ahead.

But, let's keep in mind that there were no SO wins during Richter's career, either. Lots of ties in Mike's career (73) and he played during some pretty dark years along with the Cup team.

If it came down to winning a game 7, not sure who I'd prefer in net.

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05-27-2013, 09:16 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by Cake or Death View Post
It's hard to say with how utterly atrocious this team is at retiring numbers. Cook and Boucher aren't retired but Graves and Richter are? Are you ****ing kidding me? Richter's number is retired and he's marginally in the team's all-time top 5 goalies. Dave Kerr won a Cup but also has a Vezina and a few AST selections. Chuck Rayner won a Hart in net on some lousy teams. Point is, there's no way to see with this organization who they'll retire. They're completely retarded about it and it seems to be more about popularity than who actually deserves it.
Yup, this is truly an embarrassment to the franchise. An original 6 franchise should've have freaking Adam Graves up in the rafters, a non-elite player up there. Same with Richter, non HHOF career player up in the rafters.

Imagine if next year's Rangers win the cup. Callahan and Girardi would be locks to get numbers up if they stay course with NYR the rest of their careers.

Only Leetch's and Messier's #s from the 94 team should be up there. Messier is even arguable.

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05-27-2013, 09:17 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by haohmaru View Post
Graves is 3rd all time on the team in goals.
Richter is 1st in wins all time.

Hard to argue with either of those guys, IMHO. I'd like to hear who's ahead of Richter besides Giacomin and (arguably) Lundqvist.

Equally hard for me, or you, to intelligently comment about guys that played in the 1920's. You can read other people's opinions about players like Cook, but it's hard to form an opinion about them without having seen them.
General consensus is either of Cook or Boucher are the best to ever wear the jersey, and by a comfortable margin. Graves would have a tough time cracking the all-time top 20 list.

Ahead of Richter imho: Giacomin, Raynor, Kerr, Lundqvist. I have VBK/Richter slightly behind those guys and probably VBK ever ever so slightly ahead of Richter. Just my two cents. But I watched from 75 onward and what VBK did in 85/86 impressed more than what Richter did in 94

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05-27-2013, 09:22 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by haohmaru View Post
If Henrik has a typical Henrik year, he'll be ~10 wins ahead.

But, let's keep in mind that there were no SO wins during Richter's career, either. Lots of ties in Mike's career (73) and he played during some pretty dark years along with the Cup team.

If it came down to winning a game 7, not sure who I'd prefer in net.
Very good point. Failed to remember about the no so back then. Fair enough. Still average Henke has at least 6-10 years left and averages at least 30 wins a season. Still will fly past Richter. But you have a good point.

Game 7 idk,look at the team Richter Had in front of him,mainly looking at the cup team. I'll take Henke,not really hard to decide on who to choose. IMO

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05-27-2013, 09:23 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by haohmaru View Post
If Henrik has a typical Henrik year, he'll be ~10 wins ahead.

But, let's keep in mind that there were no SO wins during Richter's career, either. Lots of ties in Mike's career (73) and he played during some pretty dark years along with the Cup team.

If it came down to winning a game 7, not sure who I'd prefer in net.
I'd prefer Lundqvist, Richter is way past his prime.

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05-27-2013, 09:27 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by Cake or Death View Post
General consensus is either of Cook or Boucher are the best to ever wear the jersey, and by a comfortable margin. Graves would have a tough time cracking the all-time top 20 list.
Consensus among who? We're talking a player that started playing 87 years ago so, if you were an adult (21) watching him, you'd be 108 today. Take that back 30 years to the 80's and you'd still have to find people in their 60's and 70's and 80's to describe how the guy played. I can't really comment on him or his worthiness. Seems like he had a nice career, 3 cups, etc... But nothing jumps out at me from his numbers - which aren't necessarily indicative of anything.

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Originally Posted by Cake or Death View Post
Ahead of Richter imho: Giacomin, Raynor, Kerr, Lundqvist. I have VBK/Richter slightly behind those guys and probably VBK ever ever so slightly ahead of Richter. Just my two cents. But I watched from 75 onward and what VBK did in 85/86 impressed more than what Richter did in 94
I've been watching since about the same time as you. Always had a soft spot for the Beezer, but Richter was the better of the two especially in big games.

For me: Giacomin, Richter, Lundqvist, Kerr, Beezer. Lundqvist has to at least get to a final to move to #2 or #1 for me.

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05-27-2013, 09:32 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by JayQueensNY88 View Post
Very good point. Failed to remember about the no so back then. Fair enough. Still average Henke has at least 6-10 years left and averages at least 30 wins a season. Still will fly past Richter. But you have a good point.

Game 7 idk,look at the team Richter Had in front of him,mainly looking at the cup team. I'll take Henke,not really hard to decide on who to choose. IMO
Hey, I hope he's here another 6-10 years. Favorite Ranger, ATM.

I dunno, you can look at the names on the backs of the jerseys of the '93-94 team and say OMG! Oilers East! and all of that nonsense.

The truth is there there were a LOT of nervous moments during that run and a lot of games where you were wondering if the curse would ever end (particularly game 6 vs. NJ and Vancouver climbing back into it). No one was confident we were going to win the Cup. Everyone was just waiting for something to go wrong. Again. Gotta give Richter credit for shouldering that and not collapsing.

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05-27-2013, 09:42 PM
  #136
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Originally Posted by haohmaru View Post
Consensus among who? We're talking a player that started playing 87 years ago so, if you were an adult (21) watching him, you'd be 108 today. Take that back 30 years to the 80's and you'd still have to find people in their 60's and 70's and 80's to describe how the guy played. I can't really comment on him or his worthiness. Seems like he had a nice career, 3 cups, etc... But nothing jumps out at me from his numbers - which aren't necessarily indicative of anything.
You look at Boucher. Won two Cups, coached the 1940 team to its 3rd Cup. Won the Lady Byng 7 times - so often they gave him the original trophy and created a new one. Retro Conn Smythe. Three 1st AST, one 2nd AST. Eight top 10 point finishes, seven times 1st or 2nd in the league in assists, five top 10 playoff point finishes, and twice the top scorer in the playoffs. Considered excellent defensively. Few NYR have a resume anywhere near that.

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Originally Posted by haohmaru View Post
I've been watching since about the same time as you. Always had a soft spot for the Beezer, but Richter was the better of the two especially in big games.

For me: Giacomin, Richter, Lundqvist, Kerr, Beezer. Lundqvist has to at least get to a final to move to #2 or #1 for me.
This I won't attempt to debate. To me, to each his/her own and I'll respect your opinion.

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05-27-2013, 09:45 PM
  #137
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Leetch is the best to put on the sweater.

Boucher, Cook(s), Johnson, Bryan Hextall Sr, Giacomin, Bathgate, Howell, Gilbert, Ratelle, Park, Greschner. I would have all of the above in the rafters.

Folks can argue about Richter. Fact is he's amongst the top of every important stats list regarding goaltenders in franchise history. Graves is 3rd in goals. Lundqvist, if healthy, is going to shatter every Rangers goaltending record. His number will eventually go up in the rafters. Its inevitable. Graves was questionable. But sometimes its not just about numbers. Sometimes its the overall impact a player makes on and off the ice. Messier falls into that description as well.

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05-27-2013, 09:48 PM
  #138
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Originally Posted by Cake or Death View Post
You look at Boucher. Won two Cups, coached the 1940 team to its 3rd Cup. Won the Lady Byng 7 times - so often they gave him the original trophy and created a new one. Retro Conn Smythe. Three 1st AST, one 2nd AST. Eight top 10 point finishes, seven times 1st or 2nd in the league in assists, five top 10 playoff point finished, and twice the top scorer in the playoffs. Considered excellent defensively. Few NYR have a resume anywhere near that.
Yeah, not really debating Boucher so much. I was talking more about Cook. In any event, I wouldn't have a problem with either of them dangling from the ceiling.

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05-27-2013, 09:49 PM
  #139
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Originally Posted by haohmaru View Post
Consensus among who? We're talking a player that started playing 87 years ago so, if you were an adult (21) watching him, you'd be 108 today. Take that back 30 years to the 80's and you'd still have to find people in their 60's and 70's and 80's to describe how the guy played. I can't really comment on him or his worthiness. Seems like he had a nice career, 3 cups, etc... But nothing jumps out at me from his numbers - which aren't necessarily indicative of anything.
P.S... you should jump in on the votes we do of all time Rangers by position. We were really thorough and we dug up a lot of great stuff on past players. Very eye opening and I found it a blast to learn more of the team's history and its past greats.

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05-27-2013, 09:50 PM
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Lundqvist doesn't need a Cup to be considered the greatest goaltender in Rangers history. That's ridiculous. He can't score goals and fix an anemic power play.

He's been nominated for Hart(s), won a Vezina, is consistently a Vezina finalist, and is already at the top of most Rangers goaltending stats.

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05-27-2013, 09:52 PM
  #141
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Originally Posted by Cake or Death View Post
You look at Boucher. Won two Cups, coached the 1940 team to its 3rd Cup. Won the Lady Byng 7 times - so often they gave him the original trophy and created a new one. Retro Conn Smythe. Three 1st AST, one 2nd AST. Eight top 10 point finishes, seven times 1st or 2nd in the league in assists, five top 10 playoff point finishes, and twice the top scorer in the playoffs. Considered excellent defensively. Few NYR have a resume anywhere near that.
http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/when...=9780396068525

Recommended reading.

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05-27-2013, 10:05 PM
  #142
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Yeah, not really debating Boucher so much. I was talking more about Cook. In any event, I wouldn't have a problem with either of them dangling from the ceiling.
Cook's resume is similar to Boucher's. Three 1st AST, one 2nd AST; two Cups; 8 times top 10 in goals, 3 times led the league; 7 times top 10 in pts, 5 times top 5, twice led the league. If it puts Boucher's and Cook's three 1st All Star Team selections in any perspective, we just did an NYR all-time top centers vote, and aside from Boucher's three, only Messier won a 1st All Star Team selection. And he did it once. Cook and Boucher both won it three times. Boucher and Cook also had excellent seasons before the All Star team selections existed. They likely would have had more.

To me, Leetch is possibly the only guy you could argue is in their class, and you would def have a very strong argument with Leetch.

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05-27-2013, 10:11 PM
  #143
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Originally Posted by Cake or Death View Post
Cook's resume is similar to Boucher's. Three 1st AST, one 2nd AST; two Cups; 8 times top 10 in goals, 3 times led the league; 7 times top 10 in pts, 5 times top 5, twice led the league. If it puts Boucher's and Cook's three 1st All Star Team selections in any perspective, we just did an NYR all-time top centers vote, and aside from Boucher's three, only Messier won a 1st All Star Team selection. And he did it once. Cook and Boucher both won it three times. Boucher and Cook also had excellent seasons before the All Star team selections existed. They likely would have had more.
Ah, but a little perspective is required in a league with 6 teams and a league with 30, don't you think?

AST's aren't terribly important to me and there are certain things that can't be measured by points alone. Leadership. Toughness. Moments ("the guarantee"). Removing 54 years of futility. There's just more to it than that.

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05-27-2013, 10:21 PM
  #144
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Ah, but a little perspective is required in a league with 6 teams and a league with 30, don't you think?

AST's aren't terribly important to me and there are certain things that can't be measured by points alone. Leadership. Toughness. Moments ("the guarantee"). Removing 54 years of futility. There's just more to it than that.
AST selections aside, fully agree. To clarify I don't mean the all star game, I mean the 1st and 2nd all star teams voted post-season, and that imho is a big accomplishment. And if you look at the vote we did on centers, we accounted for 6 teams vs expansion, acknowledging that it's more difficult to win an award or finish top 10 with more players. We did a major dig into defensive play. We pulled up numerous quotes from contemporaries that did see these guys play. Looked at guys who lost seasons to WWII. I even gave value to guys in certain eras who took few penalties as minors used to go a full two minutes and didn't end on a goal, so not taking penalties was a big thing.

We did this in-depth and did our best to pay proper respect to our team's history. We didn't sit on stats, by any stretch, and took a multitude of things into account. For centers, I think our final top 5 of Boucher, Messier, Ratelle, Colville and Watson was pretty accurate. Walt Tkaczuk looks like he'll place 6 or 7, and that is largely on very good two way play, and exceptional defensive player over a long career in NY.

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05-27-2013, 11:38 PM
  #145
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If I were Lundqvist I definitely wouldn't be in a rush to sign an extension if a championship is what I truly desire in my career. I'd wait to see how next season turns out and if things don't look like they are going to improve I'd go somewhere else. The offense in front of him needs to really improve for him to want to stay. It must suck to allow 2 goals and get knocked out of the playoffs because your team can't score.

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05-27-2013, 11:47 PM
  #146
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Hank's not going anywhere...2 teams have made it to the 2nd round the last 2 years, Kings and Rangers. We're not the dregs of the NHL like some of this board occasionally paints us as.

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05-28-2013, 12:18 AM
  #147
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edit-wrong thread


Last edited by stan the caddy: 05-28-2013 at 12:29 AM.
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05-28-2013, 01:39 AM
  #148
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I posted this in another thread, but where exactly would Hank go?

We've seen enough of a window into his life to know that he LOVES NYC. I realize he's a major competitor, but I highly doubt that he'd leave NY to play for a more competitive team in a small market.

As far as major markets go, most already have no need for him...L.A., Montreal, Vancouver, Chicago...they've all got their goaltenders.

Toronto is a possibility I guess. NJ and NYI would allow him to stay in the city too. Otherwise there's no chance.

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05-28-2013, 02:16 AM
  #149
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I think either Hank or Tortorella is gone after next season. Heard from a bird that Hank was not a Jonny Cakes cheerleader. Not a fan of Stone Age hockey. The Avery tweet had wheels. This I know...

Maybe someone should start a poll which of them should be gone in 2014. The closeness of the results would not surprise me with some of the moronic comments and shill like loyalty to the coaching staff that I have seen around here.

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05-28-2013, 02:21 AM
  #150
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^^^ Pure, baseless rumor unless a source is provided.

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