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2013-14 Flyers Overhaul Part II

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Old
05-28-2013, 08:12 PM
  #126
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Originally Posted by DecadesofFutility View Post
Reply by: ahthorne

[That's why I think the defense should be built mostly from within from now on. Pay huge to get Pronger, pay huge to replace him, pay huge to replace whoever we shipped off for him, and it's just a neverending cycle of a loss of assets. It's just stupid.
If McGinn and Laughton make the team next season, we'll have 5 players on the team that were drafted by the team. None of them being defensemen. None of them being goaltenders. I think it's safe to say the reason our defense looks like it does is because we either trade for them or sign them as UFAs, never getting the cheap years on an ELC or the cheap 2nd contract.]


If we could just draft a #1 defenseman we would stop this drain of
assets but, the Flyers do not want to draft a defenseman.
Its not like I want to give all our assets away for a #1 defensman.
I just do not see a reasonable option at this point.
Who wants to go to the rink to see the defense play so poorly.

It is either draft one or trade for one, nothing we have will become a #1.
The only other option is to hope and pray they improve. I am not betting on it.
Timmonen will be gone after next year and what is our plan to replace him?
I did not make this mess, Holmer did.
It's nice to know that you think drafting a number one defenseman is so easy. Well... it's not, and teams that have them are not willing to deal them for anything short of massive overpayment. Just look at what Nashville demanded for Weber last year before Homer sent the offer sheet.

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05-28-2013, 08:32 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by flyershockey View Post
It's nice to know that you think drafting a number one defenseman is so easy. Well... it's not, and teams that have them are not willing to deal them for anything short of massive overpayment. Just look at what Nashville demanded for Weber last year before Homer sent the offer sheet.
Yup, also there is only a handful of true #1 defensemen in this league. They don't grow on trees.

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05-28-2013, 08:47 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by LegionOfDoom91 View Post
Yup, also there is only a handful of true #1 defensemen in this league. They don't grow on trees.
Of the six teams left, there are only 3-4 clear cut number one defensemen. That also plays into the idea that a defensive unit doesn't have to have an established number one to be successful. What you do need is depth and a good balance between puck movers and stay at home guys.

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05-28-2013, 10:06 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by flyershockey View Post
Of the six teams left, there are only 3-4 clear cut number one defensemen. That also plays into the idea that a defensive unit doesn't have to have an established number one to be successful. What you do need is depth and a good balance between puck movers and stay at home guys.
??

Pittsburg: Letang
Boston: Chara
LA: Doughty
Sharks: Boyle (arguable yea but still can be considered a #1. Points machine and plays decent defense still)
Blackhawks: Keith
Detroit: No true #1 but Kronwall is a tremendous defender. Is Detroits #1 defender easily)

So yea you can say 4 of the 6 but the other two are most likely better than all of our defenders maybe not named Timonen.

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05-28-2013, 10:29 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by flyershockey View Post
What you do need is depth and a good balance between puck movers and stay at home guys.
Unfortunately, we do not have balance at this time in our defense.

If I draft a PMD as #1 pick and he does not become a #1 defenseman,
he is still valuable as partner to a slower defensive defenseman.
We need someone to move the puck and run a powerplay.
I value that more than a third line forward that I can get as a FA.

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05-28-2013, 11:07 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by DecadesofFutility View Post
Reply by: ahthorne

[That's why I think the defense should be built mostly from within from now on. Pay huge to get Pronger, pay huge to replace him, pay huge to replace whoever we shipped off for him, and it's just a neverending cycle of a loss of assets. It's just stupid.
If McGinn and Laughton make the team next season, we'll have 5 players on the team that were drafted by the team. None of them being defensemen. None of them being goaltenders. I think it's safe to say the reason our defense looks like it does is because we either trade for them or sign them as UFAs, never getting the cheap years on an ELC or the cheap 2nd contract.]


If we could just draft a #1 defenseman we would stop this drain of
assets but, the Flyers do not want to draft a defenseman.
Its not like I want to give all our assets away for a #1 defensman.
I just do not see a reasonable option at this point.
Who wants to go to the rink to see the defense play so poorly.

It is either draft one or trade for one, nothing we have will become a #1.
The only other option is to hope and pray they improve. I am not betting on it.
Timmonen will be gone after next year and what is our plan to replace him?
I did not make this mess, Holmer did.
So homer doesn't want to draft a dman? What was luca sbisa? I think they draft who they think is best...and that isn't a bad strategy.

Here is what the flyers org and the fanbase needs...

Patience.

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05-28-2013, 11:08 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by DecadesofFutility View Post
Unfortunately, we do not have balance at this time in our defense.

If I draft a PMD as #1 pick and he does not become a #1 defenseman,
he is still valuable as partner to a slower defensive defenseman.
We need someone to move the puck and run a powerplay.
I value that more than a third line forward that I can get as a FA.
I agree. All things being equal they need to go with the PMD but at the end of the day it is more important to get someone that will contribute for 10-12 years with that 1st pick. I have no problem if Nurse only turns out to be another Coburn. In realty whoever they pick won't contribute for a few seasons.

You can target a specialist with the 2nd rd pick. Whether that is a PMD or a PF to mold for a few seasons.

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05-28-2013, 11:38 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by achdumeingute View Post
So homer doesn't want to draft a dman? What was luca sbisa? I think they draft who they think is best...and that isn't a bad strategy.

Here is what the flyers org and the fanbase needs...

Patience.
One defender drafted in first round in how many years as GM?
How many years before we realize we need to draft another?
How many more years should I wait as we draft forwards and pretend
that we have a good enough defense to compete for the CUP?

This defense is bad, ignoring that fact will not make it better.

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05-29-2013, 12:14 AM
  #134
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You act like there's never been any good defensemen drafted outside of the 1st round.

-Chara (3rd)
-Weber (2nd)
-Subban (2nd)
-Keith (2nd)
-Letang (3rd)
-Faulk (2nd)
-Voynov (2nd)
-Timonen (10th)
-Byfuglien (8th)
-Enstrom (8th)
-Goligoski (2nd)
-Boyle (Undrafted)

I could honestly list more too. There's just as many good defensemen in this league drafted outside the 1st than ones that were.

The problem the Flyers had before was that they were trading all their picks away. The last two years we had pretty much all our picks, if we continue this we should get lucky eventually.

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05-29-2013, 12:14 AM
  #135
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Originally Posted by DecadesofFutility View Post
One defender drafted in first round in how many years as GM?
How many years before we realize we need to draft another?
How many more years should I wait as we draft forwards and pretend
that we have a good enough defense to compete for the CUP?

This defense is bad, ignoring that fact will not make it better.
6 years, 7 firsts, 4 traded (for emminger, pronger, Versteeg)...last 2 used for forwards, one on jvr, one on sbisa.

You act like they don't want defense. We don't have a good enough TEAM to compete for a cup, even Seth jones doesn't fix that for 2 yrs.

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05-29-2013, 12:20 AM
  #136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LegionOfDoom91 View Post
You act like there's never been any good defensemen drafted outside of the 1st round.

-Chara (3rd)
-Weber (2nd)
-Subban (2nd)
-Keith (2nd)
-Letang (3rd)
-Faulk (2nd)
-Voynov (2nd)
-Timonen (10th)
-Byfuglien (8th)
-Enstrom (8th)
-Goligoski (2nd)
-Boyle (Undrafted)

I could honestly list more too. There's just as many good defensemen in this league drafted outside the 1st than ones that were.

The problem the Flyers had before was that they were trading all their picks away. The last two years we had pretty much all our picks, if we continue this we should get lucky eventually.
but, but 2nd round picks and lower never amount to anything

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05-29-2013, 12:25 AM
  #137
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Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
but, but 2nd round picks and lower never amount to anything


It has been done before. There's more than the ones I listed too. I was pretty shocked there was that much to be honest.

As long as we draft a defensemen with one of our top two picks this year we should be fine. It's a deep class for defensemen.

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05-29-2013, 01:30 AM
  #138
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I think we all realize that this team needs a #1 defenseman with the ability to move the puck and generate offense... However outside of jones there really is no surefire defenseman in this draft. There are guys that COULD be #1 defensemen, but they could just as easily not become what we need. Therefore there really is no reason to not draft the best player available at that given spot. If that happens to be a forward and a guy like Lindholm or Nichushkin falls to us, then so be it. Maybe we could flip something for a late first/early second and grab a guy like Theodore, Haag or Morin as well.

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05-29-2013, 03:38 AM
  #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LegionOfDoom91 View Post
You act like there's never been any good defensemen drafted outside of the 1st round.

-Chara (3rd)
-Weber (2nd)
-Subban (2nd)
-Keith (2nd)
-Letang (3rd)
-Faulk (2nd)
-Voynov (2nd)
-Timonen (10th)
-Byfuglien (8th)
-Enstrom (8th)
-Goligoski (2nd)
-Boyle (Undrafted)

I could honestly list more too. There's just as many good defensemen in this league drafted outside the 1st than ones that were.


The problem the Flyers had before was that they were trading all their picks away. The last two years we had pretty much all our picks, if we continue this we should get lucky eventually.

So what? Other teams can recognize defensive talent. Big Suprize.
That just means we are terrible at recognizing defensive talent.
We would rather gamble on some 4th line forward than a defenseman.
Where other teams see talent, we think BUST!!!!

Sorry, I do not buy it. It seems logical to think that sooner or later
they could find defensive talent in the 2-7 rounds, but I am not convinced.

I see Manning, Bourdon, Lauridsen as examples of what they look for in defenders.
These are not top six defenders, if they were we would not be as bad defensively.

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05-29-2013, 03:41 AM
  #140
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Originally Posted by DecadesofFutility View Post
So what? Other teams can recognize defensive talent. Big Suprize.
That just means we are terrible at recognizing defensive talent.
We would rather gamble on some 4th line forward than a defenseman.
Where other teams see talent, we think BUST!!!!

Sorry, I do not buy it. It seems logical to think that sooner or later
they could find defensive talent in the 2-7 rounds, but I am not convinced.

I see Manning, Bourdon, Lauridsen as examples of what they look for in defenders.
These are not top six defenders, if they were we would not be as bad defensively.
Anyone need a good Center?

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05-29-2013, 04:27 AM
  #141
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Originally Posted by achdumeingute

6 years, 7 firsts, 4 traded (for emminger, pronger, Versteeg)...last 2 used for forwards, one on jvr, one on sbisa.
You act like they don't want defense. We don't have a good enough TEAM to compete for a cup, even Seth jones doesn't fix that for 2 yrs.




Posted: DecadesofFutility

Let's build a top 5 offense and bottom 5 defense.
We can create a defense out of other team's surplus defensemen.
Defensemen those teams did not want. That sounds cheap in assets.
Wow, this defense is bad, I wonder why???

If the Flyers want defense let them prove it.
They will need a total of 2 PMD to balance their defensive pairings.
They need atleast 1 PMD this season, and one after Timmo retires.
Either spend #1 pick on a defenseman or trade a valuable asset
then I'll believe they want to fix this defense.

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05-29-2013, 08:49 AM
  #142
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Originally Posted by DecadesofFutility View Post
If we could just draft a #1 defenseman we would stop this drain of
assets but, the Flyers do not want to draft a defenseman.
Its not like I want to give all our assets away for a #1 defensman.
I just do not see a reasonable option at this point.
Who wants to go to the rink to see the defense play so poorly.

It is either draft one or trade for one, nothing we have will become a #1.
The only other option is to hope and pray they improve. I am not betting on it.
Timmonen will be gone after next year and what is our plan to replace him?
I did not make this mess, Holmer did.
I wish people would stop with this concept of the Flyers not wanting to draft a number one defenseman. If there was one on the board when it was their time to choose, they probably would but when their time to pick came, there were other players that fit other needs in the organization.
As much as a team needs to be good in their own end with defensemen, they also need to be strong up the middle on offense. Taking Couturier was a no brainer when he fell into their lap two years ago. Hamilton was an option with that choice but not as good of one. Notice who sat out in game five between the B's and Rags? Last year Laughton was the guy. Briere's career is close to an end. Taking Laughton gave the Flyers the potential of having three strong centers again. Maata is good but did not give the organization the assets that Laughton can. Its the BPA philosophy and that guy was not a d-man.

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05-29-2013, 11:07 AM
  #143
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Originally Posted by DecadesofFutility View Post
So what? Other teams can recognize defensive talent. Big Suprize.
That just means we are terrible at recognizing defensive talent.
We would rather gamble on some 4th line forward than a defenseman.
Where other teams see talent, we think BUST!!!!

Sorry, I do not buy it. It seems logical to think that sooner or later
they could find defensive talent in the 2-7 rounds, but I am not convinced.

I see Manning, Bourdon, Lauridsen as examples of what they look for in defenders.
These are not top six defenders, if they were we would not be as bad defensively.
They drafted 4 defensemen out of 7 possible picks last year. This theory of your's that they only draft forwards is off base. Otherwise they would have drafted 7 forwards.

Lauridsen was a 7th rounder and Manning was undrafted, getting any type of of NHL production is a plus. All three played in the NHL at certain points so they could be top 6 defenders. Bourdon was a regular a year ago.

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05-29-2013, 11:30 AM
  #144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LegionOfDoom91 View Post
They drafted 4 defensemen out of 7 possible picks last year. This theory of your's that they only draft forwards is off base. Otherwise they would have drafted 7 forwards.

Lauridsen was a 7th rounder and Manning was undrafted, getting any type of of NHL production is a plus. All three played in the NHL at certain points so they could be top 6 defenders. Bourdon was a regular a year ago.
And only 2 forwards.

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05-29-2013, 12:08 PM
  #145
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Originally Posted by DecadesofFutility View Post
So what? Other teams can recognize defensive talent. Big Suprize.
That just means we are terrible at recognizing defensive talent.
We would rather gamble on some 4th line forward than a defenseman.
Where other teams see talent, we think BUST!!!!

Sorry, I do not buy it. It seems logical to think that sooner or later
they could find defensive talent in the 2-7 rounds, but I am not convinced.

I see Manning, Bourdon, Lauridsen as examples of what they look for in defenders.
These are not top six defenders, if they were we would not be as bad defensively.
Bourdon was a high scoring PMD/PP QB in the QMJHL. He was a top 6 in the Flyers lineup (when healthy) and I actually felt he was showing top 4 potential before he was set back with concussions etc.

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05-29-2013, 12:35 PM
  #146
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I think the Flyers need to take a shot at a first round PMD.
It is possible they pick the wrong guy.
It a crap shoot as some say anyway.

If they pick someone in the first round and he becomes good PMD,
its unfortunate because you hope you picked a #1 Defender.
I would still be OK with the pick. They rolled the dice and at least tried.

I just see them drafting defenders lower and hoping for diamond
in the rough, to be chasing fools gold. I have no confidence they
can recognize defensive talent in the lower rounds.

If they can't pick at least good PMD they will need to trade for one.
Trading will cost more in assets than just picking their guy at #11.

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05-29-2013, 12:38 PM
  #147
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MAB, Gus, and Ghost were low round picks. MAB was looking promising until concussions, Gus has looked very promising as a potential top 4 guy, and Ghost has been promising. Their recent D picks, now that they're actually picking them, have been good.

Whether they're capable of properly developing them remains a mystery.

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05-29-2013, 12:53 PM
  #148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
MAB, Gus, and Ghost were low round picks. MAB was looking promising until concussions, Gus has looked very promising as a potential top 4 guy, and Ghost has been promising. Their recent D picks, now that they're actually picking them, have been good.

Whether they're capable of properly developing them remains a mystery.

Gus was never drafted, he was signed from NCAA.

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05-29-2013, 12:56 PM
  #149
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Gus was never drafted, he was signed from NCAA.
Huh, I've always thought he was a 6th rounder. Alright then, more power to him.

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05-29-2013, 01:56 PM
  #150
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While this may be unpopular around here, one idea that would be relatively inexpensive would be to make two smaller trades.

First send Coburn to Anaheim for Luca Sbisa and a 2nd/3rd round pick, then take that pick and flip it to Carolina for Jamie McBain.

With no other changes, our defense becomes

Timonen Schenn
Sbisa Grossmann
McBain Lauridsen/Gus

Admittedly this is an extremely soft top 6, but at the same time it is cheaper, adds speed, and maximizes our flexibility with other assets. Now, with the 11th pick we don't necessarily need a PMD but rather just the best defenseman available (or BPA and trade for the best defenseman available)

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