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Old
05-28-2013, 09:56 PM
  #351
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Originally Posted by raab View Post
and Pittsburgh was back in the playoffs in Crosby's second season. Edmonton has been bottom 3 in the league for the last 3 years and finally crawled to 7th overall in a shortened season. Which I'm sure if it wasn't shortened we would have been bottom 5 again. We absolutely need playoffs next year at minimum, hopefully we can go on a run. Tambo has all but guaranteed that were screwed out of a cup after 3 years of absolute **** hockey.
After already being in a rebuild and then getting the 2 best players on the planet... Nobody is going to be able to copy Pittsburgh exactly

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05-28-2013, 11:09 PM
  #352
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Originally Posted by Tarus View Post
Chicago drafted their defense years before they got Kane/Toews, spent a ton of money of UFAs to get that one shot at the cup(Hossa, Heut, Campbell), and promptly had to dismantle and retool because they over-extended themselves so badly.

Crosby/Malkin are among the very best players in the league and reached that level of play very quickly, something none of the Oiler drafted players can even hope to claim.

Those teams won cups due massive levels of drafting luck, and years of painstaking talent acquisitions, the fact that some of there top tier players were on or close to their ELCs is merely incidental, and a product of the fact they were drafted later in their respect team's rebuilds. The Oilers will never be a UFA destination, nor does it have a ready to break out defense core, nor has it drafted multiple generational talent level players. They'll get their shot at the cup, but it will be later on when Hall/Yak/RNH mature.

Also, 6 million for RNH? 2.5 for Paajarvi? I know the Oilers back themselves into a corner with Hall by making him the franchise savior, and Eberle had a career year in his contract year, but RNH hasn't done anything to earn a contract like that(and will be coming off injury this year), and Paajarvi most definitely hasn't done anything to earn any kind of raise. At some point the Oilers will have to start actually negotiating fair contracts instead of just offering their own players contracts they can't refuse.

Not that 23 million for 4 - 6 front line players is all that much anyways. Most of the cup contenders have upwards of 30 million tied up in their 4 - 6 best players.

Chicago - 35 million on 6 players
Pittsburg - 32 million on 5 players
SJ - 31.3 on 5 players
Boston - 25.2 on 5 players
LA - 25 million on 4 players
etc

it's all about paying the talent, and finding cheap but effective role players to play behind them.
We've picked top 10 every year since 2007 except 2008 where we got Eberle. How many years do we need to pick top 10 before we're back in the playoffs? Gotta love excuses, but the fact is that this season coming up we'll be able to bring in several higher paid depth players to help make a run. Who knows what will happen 2-5 years from now.

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05-29-2013, 12:21 AM
  #353
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We've picked top 10 every year since 2007 except 2008 where we got Eberle. How many years do we need to pick top 10 before we're back in the playoffs? Gotta love excuses, but the fact is that this season coming up we'll be able to bring in several higher paid depth players to help make a run. Who knows what will happen 2-5 years from now.
I wasn't making excuses, I was pointing out that determining the best opportunity to win a Stanley Cup based on entry level contracts is simplistic, shortsighted, and lacking in any sort of context of the prior situations cited.

They do need to improve the team and make a run at the playoffs, but a cup run is a complete fantasy due to the fact that the Oiler's best players are still finding their way at the NHL level, along with a myriad of major holes on the roster that simply won't be fixed overnight.

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05-29-2013, 12:36 AM
  #354
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Originally Posted by Tarus View Post
I wasn't making excuses, I was pointing out that determining the best opportunity to win a Stanley Cup based on entry level contracts is simplistic, shortsighted, and lacking in any sort of context of the prior situations cited.

They do need to improve the team and make a run at the playoffs, but a cup run is a complete fantasy due to the fact that the Oiler's best players are still finding their way at the NHL level, along with a myriad of major holes on the roster that simply won't be fixed overnight.
I don't think there's any doubt Hall and Eberle are ready. RNH and Yakupov need to grow. Gagner is as close to ready as he'll ever be. We need a whole new 3rd line, a top 6 LW who plays a grinding game and 2 top 4 dman as well as a goalie. If Tambo had done his job correctly we should have only needed to add 2-3 pieces over the summer, and would have been a playoff team this year. By wasting all our ELC years were making it harder on ourselves then it had to be.

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05-29-2013, 12:52 AM
  #355
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Originally Posted by raab View Post
I don't think there's any doubt Hall and Eberle are ready. RNH and Yakupov need to grow. Gagner is as close to ready as he'll ever be. We need a whole new 3rd line, a top 6 LW who plays a grinding game and 2 top 4 dman as well as a goalie. If Tambo had done his job correctly we should have only needed to add 2-3 pieces over the summer, and would have been a playoff team this year. By wasting all our ELC years were making it harder on ourselves then it had to be.
They get killed defensively, and regularly struggle to win puck battles and produce offense in tough games(as I've said before). They will be good to great players, but they aren't there yet, and they definitely aren't in the realm of impacting playoff games against players like Datsyk, Toews, Thorton, Kopitar etc. That is something that will only come with development and time.

And again, the ELC contract years are meaningless to a window of winning a Stanley cup. It's all about obtaining and keeping talented players and building an affordable roster around their salaries. When you have top tier players, you can retool a roster for a decade and have many shots at a cup, which is what the Oilers are shooting for with Hall, RNH and Yakupov.

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05-29-2013, 05:42 AM
  #356
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Originally Posted by mactforcoach View Post
One of the fairest assessments of Horcoff yet. I totally agree with this, after signing his contract all the coaches played him hard. He was expected to play 1st line, PP, and kill penalties. He was put up against the top lines night after night and sent out for all the big faceoffs.

I'm not a huge fan of Horcoff but I'm trying to be fair to the guy. He's done all this only to be on a losing team year after year. I'm sure that gets to a guy after a while. Put him on a team like Boston, much like Iggy did and watch him. In all honesty I'd like to see that happen, he's gave the Oilers his best, send him somewhere like that.
I was a horcoff fan, then turned into simply a defender basing his defense on sound logic.
Its become obvious that Horcoffs ability to turn the page on losses and be a good soldier and work hard off the ice has actually been him storing up all that emotion and shoving it in the back of his mind. Its still there, although he tries to mentally detach from it and say the cliches for the interviews. Hes a good guy and a good leader off the ice but you have to see the times hes been angry or upset and seen the little jabs that come out. they are open and honest jabs but ones that have occured in such a way that i think this is a bad relationship. I dont think there is any way for all parties to be healthy next season than to buy horc out. Its the best move for Horc, the unemotional organizational entity of the oilers, and his living breathing emotional peers. MacT knows why Horc is broken... and has a TONNE of respect for the guy...and he knows its best for everyone to part ways.
I am not a huge fan of Horcoff anymore but as i said it has alot to do with carrying the weight of this team for so long at the most important position with no help. This was the first year in 4? 5? 6? that we actually had competent centres contributing...yet Belanger still was void, and when Horc went down things fell apart. That says alot, to me, on just how much we leaned on Horc and in correlation how much Horc might be best served to be cut loose.

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05-29-2013, 05:57 AM
  #357
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Originally Posted by zeus3007 View Post
Horcoff has been bashed more than all of those players combined. There is no logic behind your argument at all. Are you actually saying that Horcoff gave himself more ice time? Those are management and coaching decisions, not player decisions. Horcoff has been dragged through the mud for way too long here. It isn't his fault that he was one of the few NHL caliber forwards this team had, and despite being a 3rd line player in terms of quality, was typically the best center we had as well.
well said. There is a reason he got the ice time he got... coaches didnt trust others BECAUSE THE OTHERS WERE INEPT.
Also there was an article in the journal that compared centres for Eberle and Hall; between Gagner, Horcoff, and RNH. GF vs GA was RNH being best then Horcoff then Gagner, SCF vs SCA (scoring chances) was lopsided victory for Horcoff. Obviously you can point out that he likely messed up more than the other two centres when it was on his stick to finish or do something exceptional --like wait for a lane to develop/predict it rather than force the visible play-- but it shows that people often dont pay attention to the game and who the REAL EXPERTS (coaches that have more hocey IQ than most on some board) choose to take important roles and the work load they are burdened with.

Alot of coaches have been given full rein...and they all relied on Horc. Hmmm who is right? coaches who have lived, breathed, and make a big living off the game and their reputation and then hand their future to Horcoff by playing him in alll situations OR some guy on a message board.
mhmm

I agree completely with MacT that Horcs spirit is broken. You cant sit there day after day, acting like you are a robot, pushing that anger and dissapointment into the back of your head, putting on the brave face, and turn the page... eventually its going to come throigh the cracks and it infects your day. My hats off to the guy for being a true pro and putting in the effort. I always wonder what would have happened had he did what most other players would have done, and got his shoulder fixed when it needed to be rather than when it finally fell apart at the all star game, and if not how it would have worked out had he rehabbed it properly (needed another 3 months--souray comments on rushing players back etc come to mind) and the team not trade other pivots--or at least find immediate suitable replacements-- so they could avoid putting more burden on him.
I think he can do a good job, just not on this team. Buy him out. Show him respect. Let him walk.


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05-29-2013, 08:54 AM
  #358
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Bizarre stat for "important" goals. Horcoff got a GWG in a 4-0 win against Colorado. By your definition, would you qualify that as an "important goal?"

Further, you're effectively double counting Horcoff's poor offensive output the past several seasons with it. A player that doesn't score a lot of goals isn't going to get a lot of GWG. No need to invent critiques when calling him out on poor goal scoring is already being done (and a valid criticism).
He has 1 GWG in his last 157 games, unbelievable considering the ice time, pp time and line mates he gets. Some people on this forum have been trumpeting how important he was to the oilers winning a few games. I guess his 'intangibles' are whats help us win more than anything.

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05-29-2013, 09:23 AM
  #359
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The benifit Horcoff provides this team is simply taking up a spot higher up in the line up allowing other centers to essentially shift down a level of competition.

While Horcoff doesn't nessessarily do things that make us lose, he certainly hasn't provided something that helps us win for a long time.

He's for all intent and purpose a place holder. Unfortunatly without having someone to take that place, removing him from the equation completely would be disasterous as we don't have a 3rd or 4th center who is competent enough to just provide a "mendoza line" performance.

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05-29-2013, 10:20 AM
  #360
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The benifit Horcoff provides this team is simply taking up a spot higher up in the line up allowing other centers to essentially shift down a level of competition.

While Horcoff doesn't nessessarily do things that make us lose, he certainly hasn't provided something that helps us win for a long time.

He's for all intent and purpose a place holder. Unfortunatly without having someone to take that place, removing him from the equation completely would be disasterous as we don't have a 3rd or 4th center who is competent enough to just provide a "mendoza line" performance.
Place holders at 5.5 million a year are not good. Also placeholders that produce anything at all are a dime a dozen if you give them the oppos that Horcoff gets (as in lots of pp time and lots of pk time)

The words 'Horcoff' and him not being here being 'disasterous' should never be uttered.

Any net benefit he brings by being a vet who gets in shape and skates hard is negated by the fact that he's a horrible choice for captain and has totally become an acceptor of losing.

Addition by subtraction by getting some cap space, giving the C to someone that cares if we lose, better aligning our pay scale vs performance and knowing that the guy can be easily replaced (which he certainly can for what he brings on the ice.)

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05-29-2013, 10:44 AM
  #361
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Gotta love excuses, but the fact is that this season coming up we'll be able to bring in several higher paid depth players to help make a run. Who knows what will happen 2-5 years from now.
Yeah, we'll be ABLE to bring in several higher paid depth players...those players still have to want to play here. There isn't an infinite number of them that you can just bring up here because of money. This has been true for the Oilers for years.

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05-29-2013, 11:49 AM
  #362
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Place holders at 5.5 million a year are not good. Also placeholders that produce anything at all are a dime a dozen if you give them the oppos that Horcoff gets (as in lots of pp time and lots of pk time)

The words 'Horcoff' and him not being here being 'disasterous' should never be uttered.

Any net benefit he brings by being a vet who gets in shape and skates hard is negated by the fact that he's a horrible choice for captain and has totally become an acceptor of losing.

Addition by subtraction by getting some cap space, giving the C to someone that cares if we lose, better aligning our pay scale vs performance and knowing that the guy can be easily replaced (which he certainly can for what he brings on the ice.)
Agreed with the bolded. He simply does not bring enough for what he is paid, and unless we buy him out and expect a young kid like Ewanyk to replace him, IMO it's a very good thing.

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05-29-2013, 11:52 AM
  #363
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Yeah, we'll be ABLE to bring in several higher paid depth players...those players still have to want to play here. There isn't an infinite number of them that you can just bring up here because of money. This has been true for the Oilers for years.
There will be less $ than usual around due to the cap dropping. Because of this we might be able to acquire some higher salaried players via trade or UFA. For all of the crap that Tambo took, he has left us in a good position cap wise and with 3 picks in the top 60 of a very deep draft.

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05-29-2013, 12:05 PM
  #364
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He has 1 GWG in his last 157 games, unbelievable considering the ice time, pp time and line mates he gets. Some people on this forum have been trumpeting how important he was to the oilers winning a few games. I guess his 'intangibles' are whats help us win more than anything.
It's not unbelievable given his goal scoring totals. It's absurd to equate GWG with "important goals" however.


Last edited by ThirdManIn: 05-29-2013 at 04:51 PM. Reason: flaming
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05-29-2013, 02:26 PM
  #365
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There will be less $ than usual around due to the cap dropping. Because of this we might be able to acquire some higher salaried players via trade or UFA. For all of the crap that Tambo took, he has left us in a good position cap wise and with 3 picks in the top 60 of a very deep draft.
This exactly! This is the year we could have potentially overpaid for depth players. From here on out we'll need to draft them to get to the elite level. Sort of like Chicago has done this year after losing most of their depth from the cup run. And given our draft history I'm starting to wonder if we'll ever be a consistant playoff team let alone a contender. Make no mistake about it this is the year that management should have aimed to at least have us into the playoffs. The fact that Tambo got relieved after our horrendous skid that kept us in the bottom 10 in the league, shows that management was also planning for playoffs this year.

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05-29-2013, 03:20 PM
  #366
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Horcoff has been done for a few seasons. For a long time I respected Horcoff because he was always the hardest working guy. That's been lost over the last few years. I regularly saw him give up on plays over the last two years. That old all out hustle was gone. Horcoff is not a guy that can afford to do this, and a lot of his fall from grace had to do with the fact that he simply wasn't working as hard as he used to imo.

I get that it's been a difficult few years for the team, but it's clearly time for both sides to move on. Good luck to you Shawn, you can probably still play in the right role, but I sincerely hope it's no longer for the Oilers.

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05-29-2013, 04:17 PM
  #367
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It's not unbelievable given his goal scoring totals. It's absurd to equate GWG with "important goals" however.
They go hand in hand though. To excuse a guy for not getting gwg by saying, oh well he just sucks at scoring doesn't make me feel better.

Hey if Horcoff was a true #3/#4 center then his lack of production could be forgiven to a point. but he never has been a true 3/4 center, even last year when he was on a 3rd line (with some talented players a lot of the time) he still got a boat load of pp time.

If you play 2nd line or 3rd line but with lots of pp time you have to score way more than he does, he also provides no play making either.


Last edited by ThirdManIn: 05-29-2013 at 07:32 PM. Reason: quote
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05-29-2013, 04:25 PM
  #368
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Horcoff has been done for a few seasons. For a long time I respected Horcoff because he was always the hardest working guy. That's been lost over the last few years. I regularly saw him give up on plays over the last two years. That old all out hustle was gone. Horcoff is not a guy that can afford to do this, and a lot of his fall from grace had to do with the fact that he simply wasn't working as hard as he used to imo.

I get that it's been a difficult few years for the team, but it's clearly time for both sides to move on. Good luck to you Shawn, you can probably still play in the right role, but I sincerely hope it's no longer for the Oilers.
There was a long conversation during a game between Horc and Smyth that seemed pretty animated at the time Smyth got benched. This in a year where Smyth was also laughing after taking a bad penalty or in a losing game. Both of these players mailed it in at some point. For Smyth its been just over a year. For Horcoff its been years.

Horc probably on some beach now not worrying about anything. For a player that presumably trains as hard as he does I've never seen a Center quite as useless and one that lost a lot of his ability while still young.

I think we virtually kill motivation with our contract awards. Horc seems motivated to get out of hockey healthy and expend as little energy as possible, and take as little responsibility as possible, while milking the last years on his lottery win.

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05-29-2013, 05:14 PM
  #369
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They go hand in hand though. To excuse a guy for not getting gwg by saying, oh well he just sucks at scoring doesn't make me feel better.

Hey if Horcoff was a true #3/#4 center then his lack of production could be forgiven to a point. but he never has been a true 3/4 center, even last year when he was on a 3rd line (with some talented players a lot of the time) he still got a boat load of pp time.

If you play 2nd line or 3rd line but with lots of pp time you have to score way more than he does, he also provides no play making either.
Horcoff had the same number of GWG as Gagner last year.

Guess who led the team in empty net goals?

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05-29-2013, 05:31 PM
  #370
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Horcoff had the same number of GWG as Gagner last year.

Guess who led the team in empty net goals?
I'm guessing this guy. Does anyone have the numbers for second assists this year? I could be wrong but I'm thinking the same guy lead the team in those too. My group of friends were referring to him as point leech last year.

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05-29-2013, 05:35 PM
  #371
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I'm guessing this guy. Does anyone have the numbers for second assists this year? I could be wrong but I'm thinking the same guy lead the team in those too. My group of friends were referring to him as point leech last year.
dnicks did a tally. I think he had 2 primary assists all year.

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05-29-2013, 06:24 PM
  #372
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dnicks did a tally. I think he had 2 primary assists all year.
Really? I have a hard time believing that because I know for a fact he had 2 primary assists short handed (Paajarvi vs CBJ, Petrell vs NAS), and that's just off the top of my head because they were memorable, game changing goals. I have a hard time believing he never had a single primary assist at ES or on the PP.

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05-29-2013, 06:38 PM
  #373
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dnicks did a tally. I think he had 2 primary assists all year.
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Originally Posted by Roof Daddy View Post
Really? I have a hard time believing that because I know for a fact he had 2 primary assists short handed (Paajarvi vs CBJ, Petrell vs NAS), and that's just off the top of my head because they were memorable, game changing goals. I have a hard time believing he never had a single primary assist at ES or on the PP.
That's gotta be even strength. 11 of Gagner's 24 assists were primary.

ES: 2
PP: 7
PK: 2

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05-29-2013, 06:44 PM
  #374
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That's gotta be even strength. 11 of Gagner's 24 assists were primary.

ES: 2
PP: 7
PK: 2
Don't let facts get in the way of a good narrative.

The Oilers won ZERO games with Gagner out of the lineup this season. The guy is clutch.

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05-29-2013, 06:49 PM
  #375
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We've picked top 10 every year since 2007 except 2008 where we got Eberle. How many years do we need to pick top 10 before we're back in the playoffs? Gotta love excuses, but the fact is that this season coming up we'll be able to bring in several higher paid depth players to help make a run. Who knows what will happen 2-5 years from now.
This statement rings true for most Oiler fans I believe. What if some of our young guys crash in results over the next few years? Have to use all avenues at their disposal, when it comes to building a winner.

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