HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Montreal Canadiens
Notices

The Carey Price Discussion Thread (Part 5)

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
05-29-2013, 09:23 PM
  #226
habsfanatics
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 3,415
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmanfish90 View Post
From reading this:

http://thehockeywriters.com/the-top-...ms-in-the-nhl/

The methodology this writer used is pretty good. While ranking the top 5 defensive teams, he used a 40% emphasis on Goals Against (or Goals Against per Game), 20% emphasis on Shots Against, and equal 10% emphasis on Blocked Shots, Hits, Takeaways, and Faceoffs.

Now using this I found:

Goals Against per Game: Montreal was 14th
Shots Against per Game: Montreal was 5th
Blocked Shots: Montreal was 14th
Hits: Montreal was 20th
Takeaways: Montreal was 27th
Faceoff Percentage: Montreal was 17th.

Seeing how the last four were all emphasized equally, if you add up their total emphasis and average their "rankings" you have that 4 categories ranking at 19.5 (round up to 20) so they were 20th on average in those 4 categories.

Now multiplying each actual ranking by their emphasis you have a total defensive ranking (using the emphasis on each category) of:

14*(0.4) + 5*(0.2) + 14*(0.1) + 20*(0.1) + 27*(0.1) + 17*(0.1) giving you a total ranking of 14.4 rounded down to 14th. They were average defensively this year. This statement makes sense to me as that is what I think is actually what happened on ice.
Hits have no bearing on the quality of defence, 10 % is 10% too high. One of the best dan ever, rarely hit, see Nik Lidstrom

Takeaways, completely meaningless, no standard set between rinks to even count them, and the team with the puck the most is the team that has the least amount of chances to actually create takeaways

Faceoffs, basically a coin toss, once again, 10% is 10% too high. None of those things had any impact on the bad defensive prowess. Zero, talk about grasping. If those lack of hits/faceoffs/takeways weren't leading to more shots/more scoring chances they are completely irrelevant, it's clear as day that they weren't. lol

habsfanatics is offline  
Old
05-29-2013, 09:24 PM
  #227
groovejuice
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 2,915
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by icu View Post
LOL at people comparing Price's Calder Cup to Quick's Stanley Cup!

Any success prior to the NHL means absolutely nothing!
If you actually read what you just wrote, it's ridiculous.

Everything a player does prior to entering the NHL is vital to his future performance and if and when he will be drafted.

Success breeds success. Shake your head and get off the porch-climber.

groovejuice is online now  
Old
05-29-2013, 09:25 PM
  #228
Born in 1909
Hockey Royalty
 
Born in 1909's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Montreal
Posts: 4,692
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mats86 View Post
Patrick Roy was l'Antichambre....he said Price was in trouble both technically and that he didn't have the competitive edge to be a winner.
He's right.

Roy was awesome.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_HNGCLVvK4

'86 and '93

I like Carey... but he can't pull off some of those desperate saves.

Born in 1909 is offline  
Old
05-29-2013, 09:29 PM
  #229
habsfanatics
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 3,415
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmanfish90 View Post
LOL BS. K there defensive specialist.

1) Why are the Bruins/Kings/Sharks/Penguins/Blackhawks one of the top 5 defensive teams? Don't you think their physicality has something to do with it? The way the Bruins bruise you down (especially come POs) is a good thing for defense. If you make a big hit or continuously hit the other team, you can force them into giveaways/turnovers. Anyone who watches hockey would see this.

2) Takeaways are just as important as giveaways. FYI from the past 6 seasons, the Habs ranking in takeaways is as follows:

2012-13: 27th
2011-12: 26th
2010-11: 23rd
2009-10: 16th
2008-09: 9th
2007-08: 7th

So consistenly from year to year, we've taken away less and less pucks. Interesting.

FYI from the past 6 seasons, the Habs ranking in giveaways is as follows:

2012-13: 12th
2011-12: 5th
2010-11: 7th
2009-10: 2nd
2008-09: 3rd
2007-08: 7th

So consistently from year to year, the Habs were among the 10 teams with the highest amount of giveaways. This year we improved, but nothing to boast about being the team with the 12th highest giveaways.

3) The stats say otherwise: http://www.nhl.com/ice/teamstats.htm...ewName=summary

4) I don't understand what that means but the reason why Faceoff % is a minorly emphasized statistic for defense is because if you can't win faceoffs in your own zone, you're probably going to give up a scoring opportunity or shot(s) off the draw. Make sense? And it doesn't matter in this situation (the Montreal Canadiens stats this year) if it's "relevant" or not. It's used in the formula and can't be discredited in certain circumstances for certain teams.

5) Again it doesn't matter what the rank is, it's a key component of a formula to find their defensive "ranking".

6) There is no such thing as an official NHL statistic for odd man rushes, breakaways, outnumbered in defensive zone coverage, leaving opponents unchecked in the slot that I know of (unless somebody can post a link that has these statistics). I know i've made that kind of point in the past, with nothing to back it up. What i have now is despite allowing the 5th least amount of shots, their defensive "ranking" was still average, or very very very slightly better than average at 14th. Explain this to me? I'm puzzled.

Despite having one of the top 5 best defensive "ranked" teams in front of him, Jonathan Quick's stats are very similar to Price's...weird
"Probably going to give up shots", except we didn't. Giveaways/takeaways are about the most meaningless stat going. The top dman in the league leads in giveaways every year, it's because they have the puck the most often.

Shots blocked haha, you realize this shows how well our d actually was right? We gave up the 4th fewest shots and didn't have to prevent shots from getting on net either, which means we were controlling the play. If you can't grasp these basic concepts you're in way too deep.

Edit: So lets review your data

We were middle of the pack in shots blocked.
We sucked at hitting
We gave up the forth fewest shots in the league.
We were middle of the pack in faceoffs.
We were bad at takeaways,

While guess what, while all those things were happening, no shots were resulted of it, unless you believe if we hit more, won more faceoffs and blocked a few more shots, then we'd be 1st overall in Defense. Your understanding of statistics is mind-boggling.

If they were leading to more shots, we would of, umm, giving up more shots, but we gave up the 4th fewest, add to the fact we were only 14th in the league in blocked shots, means that fewer pucks were going towards our net, which also means, we had the puck more than our opponents, which also means, the habs were a very good team this year. In no way was LA's D significantly better than ours, not by any metric.


Last edited by habsfanatics: 05-29-2013 at 09:49 PM.
habsfanatics is offline  
Old
05-29-2013, 09:30 PM
  #230
simplysincere*
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 298
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by groovejuice View Post
If you actually read what you just wrote, it's ridiculous.

Everything a player does prior to entering the NHL is vital to his future performance and if and when he will be drafted.

Success breeds success. Shake your head and get off the porch-climber.
No, you're wrong.

Anything a player does before the NHL, means absolutely nothing.

If your logic had an ounce of merit, then there would be no such thing as a bust.

Jamie Storr won back to back gold medals in the juniors, but did not win a damn thing at the NHL.

All that matters is what you do at the NHL level, not what you did in the minor league. There's a reason for why it's called the minor league.

simplysincere* is offline  
Old
05-29-2013, 09:31 PM
  #231
habsfanatics
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 3,415
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmanfish90 View Post
Just so you know, the statement of "Quick has had a better defensive team in front of him than Price has in front of him" is true.

The proof? Using the ranking system mentioned here, Los Angeles has had an approximately 5 point lower ranking than Montreal on average over the past 5 seasons, meaning defensively Los Angeles was better than Montreal over this time.

Don't fault Price's PO performance because the teams in front of him aren't of SC Contender material...

This year was probably his only "bad" year of all his time in the POs as the Canadiens #1. Look how amazing our depth was this year. A sure-tell sign that our team is a SC Contender...
Your ranking system is complete bunk.

habsfanatics is offline  
Old
05-29-2013, 09:33 PM
  #232
Agnostic
11 Stanley Cups
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,909
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by groovejuice View Post
If you actually read what you just wrote, it's ridiculous.

Everything a player does prior to entering the NHL is vital to his future performance and if and when he will be drafted.

Success breeds success. Shake your head and get off the porch-climber.
I am sure that Carey won a peewee tournament at some time, that's equally irrelevant to his performance in the NHL playoffs.

Agnostic is offline  
Old
05-29-2013, 09:34 PM
  #233
uiCk
GrEmelins
 
uiCk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: MTL
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,282
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by icu View Post
No, you're wrong.

Anything a player does before the NHL, means absolutely nothing.

If your logic had an ounce of merit, then there would be no such thing as a bust.

Jamie Storr won back to back gold medals in the juniors, but did not win a damn thing at the NHL.
How do you draft players? Penis length?

uiCk is online now  
Old
05-29-2013, 09:43 PM
  #234
groovejuice
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 2,915
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by icu View Post
No, you're wrong.

Anything a player does before the NHL, means absolutely nothing.

If your logic had an ounce of merit, then there would be no such thing as a bust.

Jamie Storr won back to back gold medals in the juniors, but did not win a damn thing at the NHL.

All that matters is what you do at the NHL level, not what you did in the minor league. There's a reason for why it's called the minor league.
You miss the salient point. Everything you do at all levels of hockey previous to the NHL contributes to a player's experience and competitive nature.

What you really mean is that you don't give a damn what a player does at more junior levels. In reality it is important though.

Why do you think first round picks are much more successful than seconds, and so on down the line?

groovejuice is online now  
Old
05-29-2013, 09:46 PM
  #235
simplysincere*
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 298
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by uiCk View Post
How do you draft players? Penis length?
I don't draft based on hype, but based on perceived quality.

In the same draft year as Price, Los Angeles got the better goalie in the draft (who went in the 2nd round, I might add), and Kopitar!

Montreal would be a contender right now if they had Quick and Kopitar. LA does not win a Cup without Quick or Kopitar.

simplysincere* is offline  
Old
05-29-2013, 09:48 PM
  #236
groovejuice
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 2,915
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
I am sure that Carey won a peewee tournament at some time, that's equally irrelevant to his performance in the NHL playoffs.
Actually it is not. Anything that contributes to a players development is important.

You're being intentionally thick. Cause you couldn't be that ignorant about sports with your number of posts.

groovejuice is online now  
Old
05-29-2013, 09:48 PM
  #237
Poulet Kostopoulos
Registered User
 
Poulet Kostopoulos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 4,843
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Born in 1909 View Post
He's right.

Roy was awesome.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_HNGCLVvK4

'86 and '93

I like Carey... but he can't pull off some of those desperate saves.
Watching this, it just strikes me how ridiculous the Price-Roy comparison is at this point.

#7 Roy-Osgood fight. Nothing like the Price-Thomas "fight", is it? If Roy was still playing for Habs, he would have probably fought Thomas for real. lol

As for desperate saves, I remember Carey's on his stomach skate up the air save this season.

Poulet Kostopoulos is offline  
Old
05-29-2013, 09:50 PM
  #238
uiCk
GrEmelins
 
uiCk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: MTL
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,282
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by icu View Post
I don't draft based on hype, but based on perceived quality.

In the same draft year as Price, Los Angeles got the better goalie in the draft (who went in the 2nd round, I might add), and Kopitar!

Montreal would be a contender right now if they had Quick and Kopitar. LA does not win a Cup without Quick or Kopitar.
So.. a time machine? AND penis length? (obv ignoring ABSOLUTELY everything that player did prior to being drafted, since it means absolutely nothing)

uiCk is online now  
Old
05-29-2013, 09:50 PM
  #239
habsfanatics
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 3,415
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by uiCk View Post
How do you draft players? Penis length?
What does how they were drafted matter? How many junior players are outstanding in jr and amount to nothing in the NHL?

habsfanatics is offline  
Old
05-29-2013, 09:51 PM
  #240
simplysincere*
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 298
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by groovejuice View Post
You miss the salient point. Everything you do at all levels of hockey previous to the NHL contributes to a player's experience and competitive nature.

What you really mean is that you don't give a damn what a player does at more junior levels. In reality it is important though.

Why do you think first round picks are much more successful than seconds, and so on down the line?
Your logic again, is completely false.

Quick is a better goalie than Price, and went in the 2nd round. That fact alone destroys your logic.

Again, I'll reiterate the point, the only thing that matters is what you do at the NHL level. Everything else means nothing.

Sidney Crosby is Sidney Crosby, because he won a Gold, Stanley Cup, Art Ross, and Hart. Sidney Crosby is not Sidney Crosby because of what he did in Junior, but because of what he did at the NHL level.

Also, according to your skewed logic, I suppose someone with a PhD who amounts to nothing later on in life is much more successful than a university dropout such as Steve Jobs.

Hype, literally means nothing. I want people who get the job done, when it counts. I don't care about their hype. And successful GMs or bosses will hire people who get the job done. GMs or bosses that fall for the hype end up failing their teams or companies, and ultimately lose their job.

simplysincere* is offline  
Old
05-29-2013, 09:55 PM
  #241
uiCk
GrEmelins
 
uiCk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: MTL
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,282
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by habsfanatics View Post
What does how they were drafted matter? How many junior players are outstanding in jr and amount to nothing in the NHL?
i'm just curious how you evaluate a player since everything he did prior to being drafted means absolutley nothing.

uiCk is online now  
Old
05-29-2013, 09:59 PM
  #242
Ohashi_Jouzu
Registered User
 
Ohashi_Jouzu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Halifax
Country: Japan
Posts: 21,478
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by uiCk View Post
i'm just curious how you evaluate a player since everything he did prior to being drafted means absolutley nothing.
340 NHL games later, it means nothing.

Ohashi_Jouzu is offline  
Old
05-29-2013, 10:00 PM
  #243
Poulet Kostopoulos
Registered User
 
Poulet Kostopoulos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 4,843
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by icu View Post
Your logic again, is completely false.

Quick is a better goalie than Price, and went in the 2nd round. That fact alone destroys your logic.

Again, I'll reiterate the point, the only thing that matters is what you do at the NHL level. Everything else means nothing.

Sidney Crosby is Sidney Crosby, because he won a Gold, Stanley Cup, Art Ross, and Hart. Sidney Crosby is not Sidney Crosby because of what he did in Junior, but because of what he did at the NHL level.

Also, according to your skewed logic, I suppose someone with a PhD who amounts to nothing later on in life is much more successful than a university dropout such as Steve Jobs.

Hype, literally means nothing. I want people who get the job done, when it counts. I don't care about their hype. And successful GMs or bosses will hire people who get the job done. GMs or bosses that fall for the hype end up failing their teams or companies, and ultimately lose their job.
Permit me to chime in.

Of course, nothing is absolute when dealing with people. BUT, you have a *better chance* that you'll end up with someone who knows what he's doing when picking a PhD than picking some drop-out dude. Nobody really knows for sure who can really get the job done. GMs and bosses play the percentages by picking the person with the best credentials, given the data they have on the candidates.

Poulet Kostopoulos is offline  
Old
05-29-2013, 10:03 PM
  #244
uiCk
GrEmelins
 
uiCk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: MTL
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,282
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
340 NHL games later, it means nothing.
i wouldn't consider 340 NHL games as nothing.

uiCk is online now  
Old
05-29-2013, 10:04 PM
  #245
groovejuice
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 2,915
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by icu View Post
Your logic again, is completely false.

Quick is a better goalie than Price, and went in the 2nd round. That fact alone destroys your logic.

Again, I'll reiterate the point, the only thing that matters is what you do at the NHL level. Everything else means nothing.

Sidney Crosby is Sidney Crosby, because he won a Gold, Stanley Cup, Art Ross, and Hart. Sidney Crosby is not Sidney Crosby because of what he did in Junior, but because of what he did at the NHL level.

Also, according to your skewed logic, I suppose someone with a PhD who amounts to nothing later on in life is much more successful than a university dropout such as Steve Jobs.
Horrible example which clearly demonstrates that your ego is incapable of bending to logic.

Jobs' success was in business, which he obviously excelled at. The PhD is irrelevant. The business success is the factor. A clever HR guy would hire him based on his business acumen and demonstrable success. Not on the number of exams he passed.

Once their careers are done, you can state Quick was better. He's only better now. And now he is playing on a superior team.

groovejuice is online now  
Old
05-29-2013, 10:08 PM
  #246
Ohashi_Jouzu
Registered User
 
Ohashi_Jouzu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Halifax
Country: Japan
Posts: 21,478
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by uiCk View Post
i wouldn't consider 340 NHL games as nothing.
No, no, junior accolades/accomplishments mean nothing when trying to project future development past the 340 NHL game mark (well, much, much earlier, for that matter)... is what I was trying to say.

Ohashi_Jouzu is offline  
Old
05-29-2013, 10:13 PM
  #247
simplysincere*
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 298
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by groovejuice View Post
Horrible example which clearly demonstrates that your ego is incapable of bending to logic.

Jobs' success was in business, which he obviously excelled at. The PhD is irrelevant. The business success is the factor. A clever HR guy would hire him based on his business acumen and demonstrable success. Not on the number of exams he passed.

Once their careers are done, you can state Quick was better. He's only better now. And now he is playing on a superior team.
You just contradicted yourself.

While you admit that a PhD is irrelevant to someone's future successes, you still can't admit that Price's minor league success is irrelevant to his lack thereof at the NHL level.

Do you realize how you've just contradicted yourself?

simplysincere* is offline  
Old
05-29-2013, 10:13 PM
  #248
uiCk
GrEmelins
 
uiCk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: MTL
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,282
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
No, no, junior accolades/accomplishments mean nothing when trying to project future development past the 340 NHL game mark (well, much, much earlier, for that matter)... is what I was trying to say.
Sure. Neither does playing 340 games behind an average team (and below average PO team)

uiCk is online now  
Old
05-29-2013, 10:15 PM
  #249
Doc McKenna
Registered User
 
Doc McKenna's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Country: Canada
Posts: 603
vCash: 500
Price Lovers are the same as the luongo defenders. Remember how great this guy was suppose to be. They want to run him out of town while paying him more than a mill less than price. its all about what you accomplish, and at what cost. Sadly the NHL isn't the capless NHL of old, where the amount you pay your goalie doesn't matter. The 1.5 over payment(imo) to price means we can't afford to get this better team you all think he needs in front of him to be a stellar goalie. If you are paid like a gamebreaker you have to be a gamebreaker. Price is the Joe Thronton of goalies.

Doc McKenna is offline  
Old
05-29-2013, 10:17 PM
  #250
ECWHSWI
P.K. is perfect.
 
ECWHSWI's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 14,912
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by icu View Post
Your logic again, is completely false.

Quick is a better goalie than Price, and went in the 2nd round. That fact alone destroys your logic.

Again, I'll reiterate the point, the only thing that matters is what you do at the NHL level. Everything else means nothing.

Sidney Crosby is Sidney Crosby, because he won a Gold, Stanley Cup, Art Ross, and Hart. Sidney Crosby is not Sidney Crosby because of what he did in Junior, but because of what he did at the NHL level.

Also, according to your skewed logic, I suppose someone with a PhD who amounts to nothing later on in life is much more successful than a university dropout such as Steve Jobs.

Hype, literally means nothing. I want people who get the job done, when it counts. I don't care about their hype. And successful GMs or bosses will hire people who get the job done. GMs or bosses that fall for the hype end up failing their teams or companies, and ultimately lose their job.
you're confusing hype and past accomplishments.

ECWHSWI is online now  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:15 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.