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The Carey Price Discussion Thread (Part 5)

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05-29-2013, 10:21 PM
  #251
Doc McKenna
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Originally Posted by uiCk View Post
Sure. Neither does playing 340 games behind an average team (and below average PO team)
You mean the same average team that made it to the ECF? Oh right we had a hot goalie that we traded away so price wouldn't have competition because our ELITE TOP 5 goalie has a super fragile ego. So its always cuzz the team sucked right, except when the back up brought us to the semi finals? That is what a good goalie does in the post season. Gives their team a chance. Price regardless of year or injuries hasn't done it. The year he made it past first round we got swept in 4 straight. MAYBE his workload is too heavy(something many point as his strong suit) if so say something and be fresh for the playoff.s

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05-29-2013, 10:21 PM
  #252
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Originally Posted by uiCk View Post
Sure. Neither does playing 340 games behind an average team (and below average PO team)
Um... lol? You realize, of course, that by virtue of playing against the best in the league on a nightly basis you stand a much better chance of projecting performance/development in a different setting against the same competition.

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05-29-2013, 10:21 PM
  #253
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Originally Posted by Poulet Kostopoulos View Post
Permit me to chime in.

Of course, nothing is absolute when dealing with people. BUT, you have a *better chance* that you'll end up with someone who knows what he's doing when picking a PhD than picking some drop-out dude. Nobody really knows for sure who can really get the job done. GMs and bosses play the percentages by picking the person with the best credentials, given the data they have on the candidates.
That's why companies, governments, don't hire solely based on someone's education level. Everything else you do in life, to your personality, experience, etc., is accounted for.

Similarly, why hockey teams should not draft solely based on junior-level championships.

Basing your pick on percentage alone is a gamble.

If Montreal got their picks right, they could've had Getzlaf, Kopitar, and Quick. Instead, they got Kostitsyn, Price, and Latendresse.

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05-29-2013, 10:26 PM
  #254
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Alexander Daigle had an incredible juniors, NHL not so much. He was out of the NHL by 25. Sometimes can't miss prospects miss.

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05-29-2013, 10:29 PM
  #255
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Originally Posted by icu View Post
You just contradicted yourself.

While you admit that a PhD is irrelevant to someone's future successes, you still can't admit that Price's minor league success is irrelevant to his lack thereof at the NHL level.

Do you realize how you've just contradicted yourself?
I'm on a smart phone with no access to emoticons or there would be a line of headshakes.

How do you figure you can debate intelligently when you don't even begin to understand an obvious point?

The success is in business (hockey)
The PhD is the studying (coaching)

I have no contradiction. Your mind is limited by its bias and tiny taste buds.

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05-29-2013, 10:31 PM
  #256
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Um... lol? You realize, of course, that by virtue of playing against the best in the league on a nightly basis you stand a much better chance of projecting performance/development in a different setting against the same competition.
lost me there. Are you saying the competition remains the same, no matter what team Price plays for? Because the competition has different effect against MTL then it does against, lets say, LA.

Anyways...

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05-29-2013, 10:32 PM
  #257
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And the problem with talking about Price pre-NHL accomplishments, especially his AHL Cup, is that you would have thought that it would have permitted him to be better, sooner. You don't do all that, real young, to then, go back in a regular mode, till you reach 27th, your prime time. That's usually reserved to non-phenom guys who has a more quiet and steady progression. But now, there's talk about his style....his attitude.....his competitiveness.....his weaknesses and so on....Somehow, even for him, what he did in the past has to count for so much, he has to bring it to another level. From his own words.

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05-29-2013, 10:33 PM
  #258
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Originally Posted by McNuts View Post
Quick sucked this year. Not even top 10. Now he's a monster in the playoffs. But why are people saying he had a good year? It was terrible. Price had a better season than Quick.
its all about the playoffs.who really cares about the regular season?

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05-29-2013, 10:36 PM
  #259
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its all about the playoffs.who really cares about the regular season?
Notwithstanding the fact that the guy just won something called the Cup. And the fact that every team goes through a tough phase the year after. And Kings "tough" phase means....3rd round after a Cup year. Pretty tough alright....

Yep, he didn't have the greatest of season. But now it's 1 Cup....and 1 3rd round for him. People should be careful with their comparisons....

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05-29-2013, 10:39 PM
  #260
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Originally Posted by Doc McKenna View Post
Alexander Daigle had an incredible juniors, NHL not so much. He was out of the NHL by 25. Sometimes can't miss prospects miss.
There are always exceptions. We are discussing the value of athletic success at all levels. Even worse example is Doug Wickenheiser.

And we are not really talking about random failures or successes. We are talking about criteria for drafting players. Take two players of subjectively equal skill. Do you choose the one who kicks ass in the biggest games or the one who never won?

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05-29-2013, 10:41 PM
  #261
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So does that drop price to top 6 goalie. I have a hard time keeping track of who is better than him the pool is so small.

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05-29-2013, 10:46 PM
  #262
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Originally Posted by uiCk View Post
lost me there. Are you saying the competition remains the same, no matter what team Price plays for?
Uh, yeah? Except for the team swap aspect, the entire rest of the league remains the same, and throws the same systems, players, etc at whatever team Price plays for. How the goals are manufactured against him is a matter of the "eye test", and I'm willing to bet that some of the most ardent Price supporters spend relatively little time watching games in other markets, let alone with an unbiased eye. But that's irrelevant. It's easier to project how you think a goalie will stand up to a Stamkos one-timer, a Chara bomb from the point, an Ovechkin breakaway, or a Tavares wrist shot, if you actually watch him do it on a nightly basis. You can see how he controls rebounds when facing NHL shots/releases. You could see how he tracks plays and fights through traffic against the best on the planet. You can see how he reacts to the pressure of a particular situation. You can see how he practices next to/against top level players. I could go on if need be, but the point is that NHL performance is a much MUCH better indicator of future NHL performance (which is NOT expressed 100% statistically) - regardless of particular setting - than performance at any minor pro or lower level. Really can't believe I'm having this debate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by uiCk View Post
Because the competition has different effect against MTL then it does against, lets say, LA.

Anyways...
If you watch enough hockey, the statistics become interesting background noise.

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05-29-2013, 10:48 PM
  #263
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Originally Posted by groovejuice View Post
I'm on a smart phone with no access to emoticons or there would be a line of headshakes.

How do you figure you can debate intelligently when you don't even begin to understand an obvious point?

The success is in business (hockey)
The PhD is the studying (coaching)

I have no contradiction. Your mind is limited by its bias and tiny taste buds.
I'm sorry I'm not dumb enough to understand your skewed logic.

PhD is like a minor league achievement. It's nice to have on your resume, but it does not guarantee any future success. If you can't see that obvious statement, then you simply lack common sense, and I'm sorry for you my child.

Who cares about a minor achievement or a PhD if you can't obtain real success? Real success that actually counts.

Calder cups don't count, Stanley Cups do. PhD's don't count, having a successful career does. Again, Quick's Stanlety Cup success counts. Jobs' career success counts. Regardless that Quick never won a Calder Cup or junior Gold Medal. Regardless that Jobs never obtained a PhD.

When it's all said and done this time by next year, Quick might end up with two Stanley Cups, Two Smythes, and One Olympic Gold Medal, and you'll still be here arguing that Price's minor league success is as relevant as Quick's professional league success.


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05-29-2013, 10:49 PM
  #264
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Originally Posted by groovejuice View Post
There are always exceptions. We are discussing the value of athletic success at all levels. Even worse example is Doug Wickenheiser.

And we are not really talking about random failures or successes. We are talking about criteria for drafting players. Take two players of subjectively equal skill. Do you choose the one who kicks ass in the biggest games or the one who never won?
NO we aren't we all know price had great qualifications. The problem is when do you call a bust a bust(at least in his present situation) Thats the problem with this thread. Some think its about one thing and others are talking about something else.

Draft-the best player.
HOWEVER if that player after 6 seasons isn't improving and is still mediocre, when do you say as much?

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05-29-2013, 10:50 PM
  #265
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Results withstanding, the disturbing part of Price's comments is that he feels oppressed. Which is, to be honest, surprising. It is not true that hockey players in Montreal feel the heat in their daily chores. Sure, they get asked for autographs and get asked for photos. But they do not get heckled to death and do not get paparazzied like Price says. For him to say he can't go to the grocery store is ludicrous. The guy has got issues. There were some rumors of his mental 'breakdown' the year Halak went for it. They were only rumors, and I didn't give them any credibility. Today, in hindsight, not so sure.

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05-29-2013, 10:53 PM
  #266
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price is nowhere near a bust.if we are having this discussion 5 years from now then we'll talk.as of now he has a ton of upside.like some,i have concerns ,but am far from giving up on this guy.

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05-29-2013, 10:56 PM
  #267
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If you watch enough hockey, the statistics become interesting background noise.
I agree which is why I said the last few seasons that PK had a number of holes in his D game. Many many times bad puck IQ for the smart D play. He played much much better this year. SO I will happily eat my plate of crow, but he did have holes regardless of his stats. He still has room for improvement, but that comes form experience. Subban was making mistakes last year that peewee kids no not to do. Like the very low % pass up the middle, he is better at it now, but you can't get away with that at the pro level, everyone knows about it and they study tapes on it. Price same deal. He could get away with some things in juniors that you just can't . There are far fewer passengers and fill in on regular pro roster than say juniors.

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05-29-2013, 10:59 PM
  #268
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Originally Posted by Doc McKenna View Post
NO we aren't we all know price had great qualifications. The problem is when do you call a bust a bust(at least in his present situation) Thats the problem with this thread. Some think its about one thing and others are talking about something else.

Draft-the best player.
HOWEVER if that player after 6 seasons isn't improving and is still mediocre, when do you say as much?
The "problem" is also the improvement. You look at Quick and you see that he improves year after year. Yes, he had some trouble this year.....like 110% of players after a cup....You look at Rask and see the improvement. Look at Howard and see it. You'd also look at a worst goalie than Price like Dubnyk and do see the improvement nonetheless. While you might be seeing from Price is ups and downs. There's just no real improvement. Or at the very worst, some steadiness in what should have been a great career from the start based on everything that happpened before....and every chance he had to shine. But it's not too late.....but it's getting dark....

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05-29-2013, 11:01 PM
  #269
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Originally Posted by haburger View Post
price is nowhere near a bust.if we are having this discussion 5 years from now then we'll talk.as of now he has a ton of upside.like some,i have concerns ,but am far from giving up on this guy.
ITs not that he is a bust, its his mental endurance for montreal. I have no doubt he would be better on other teams for various reasons. But the problem is do you let him go now or hang on and hope for a turnaround, or let him go knowing he will be better elsewhere, but get some parts your team needs going forward. its a risk reward senario that could burn bad or turn out very well.

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05-29-2013, 11:03 PM
  #270
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Originally Posted by Doc McKenna View Post
NO we aren't we all know price had great qualifications. The problem is when do you call a bust a bust(at least in his present situation) Thats the problem with this thread. Some think its about one thing and others are talking about something else.

Draft-the best player.
HOWEVER if that player after 6 seasons isn't improving and is still mediocre, when do you say as much?
Well that is not really what the discussion is. We are debating whether any pre- NHL success has validity.

All I'm saying is that scouts and GMs tend to think so and I agree. A winning experience at all levels is an accepted asset. No one is saying it is an absolute. Merely a widely accepted criterion.

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05-29-2013, 11:04 PM
  #271
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Originally Posted by deandebean View Post
Results withstanding, the disturbing part of Price's comments is that he feels oppressed. Which is, to be honest, surprising. It is not true that hockey players in Montreal feel the heat in their daily chores. Sure, they get asked for autographs and get asked for photos. But they do not get heckled to death and do not get paparazzied like Price says. For him to say he can't go to the grocery store is ludicrous. The guy has got issues. There were some rumors of his mental 'breakdown' the year Halak went for it. They were only rumors, and I didn't give them any credibility. Today, in hindsight, not so sure.
I agree. Point is, if he really hates it and can't live in it..he should quietly ask Bergevin to do something about it but no rush so that we'd get the ABSOLUTELY best deal possible. If not, that would be so unfair for him to not say anything to that nature and wait till something explode and we'd have to deal him fast that will not permit us to get the most for him. I hope everybody here know where they stand.

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05-29-2013, 11:04 PM
  #272
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The "problem" is also the improvement. You look at Quick and you see that he improves year after year. Yes, he had some trouble this year.....like 110% of players after a cup....You look at Rask and see the improvement. Look at Howard and see it. You'd also look at a worst goalie than Price like Dubnyk and do see the improvement nonetheless. While you might be seeing from Price is ups and downs. There's just no real improvement. Or at the very worst, some steadiness in what should have been a great career from the start based on everything that happpened before....and every chance he had to shine. But it's not too late.....but it's getting dark....
I completely agree. He has moments of regression and inconsistency. Something that should be smoothed out by this point. AT leats more so than it is. His first year is still his best IMO and its been lower but steady for the most part since. An average to good goalie, but no where near his potential or his pay dictates.

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05-29-2013, 11:18 PM
  #273
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Well that is not really what the discussion is. We are debating whether any pre- NHL success has validity.

All I'm saying is that scouts and GMs tend to think so and I agree. A winning experience at all levels is an accepted asset. No one is saying it is an absolute. Merely a widely accepted criterion.
Right, but "assets" like "success" only serve to develop intangibles; which impact how you approach your work at the next level, not necessarily how you ultimately perform. Every year handfuls of CHL champions find themselves on NHL rosters following their junior careers, but it takes pretty incredible performances to supplant an NHL roster incumbent with Stanley Cup experience... because success in the minor leagues does NOT guarantee future NHL performance to anywhere near the same degree as past NHL experience OR performance.

This is pretty fundamental. In conjunction other aspects including asset management/protection, this is why player salaries typically go up until a player is perceived to actually be on a physical or productivity decline, and why no one would sign even the most highly touted junior player to the league max before seeing him play an NHL game - even if the rules permitted them.

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05-29-2013, 11:19 PM
  #274
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
I agree. Point is, if he really hates it and can't live in it..he should quietly ask Bergevin to do something about it but no rush so that we'd get the ABSOLUTELY best deal possible. If not, that would be so unfair for him to not say anything to that nature and wait till something explode and we'd have to deal him fast that will not permit us to get the most for him. I hope everybody here know where they stand.
What's even more stupid is that Price signed a long term contract just last year! He knew the consequences of playing in Montreal long before he signed that long term contract last year. If he had issues with all the attention of playing in Montreal, then he shouldn't have signed that contract, rather he should've asked to be dealt.

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05-29-2013, 11:21 PM
  #275
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You mean the same average team that made it to the ECF? Oh right we had a hot goalie that we traded away so price wouldn't have competition because our ELITE TOP 5 goalie has a super fragile ego. So its always cuzz the team sucked right, except when the back up brought us to the semi finals? That is what a good goalie does in the post season. Gives their team a chance. Price regardless of year or injuries hasn't done it. The year he made it past first round we got swept in 4 straight. MAYBE his workload is too heavy(something many point as his strong suit) if so say something and be fresh for the playoff.s
Bold, very bold, but very well put.

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