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2013-14 Flyers Overhaul Part II

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Old
05-29-2013, 05:30 PM
  #151
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Whether they're capable of properly developing them remains a mystery.
Agreed. Lauridson and Gustafsson both go to the Worlds and are critical to their team's success. They also played well up here at the end of the season. Maybe Murray taught these guys something down there in GF after all. You'd think that between Hatcher, Pronger and the other guys that work with our young defensemen, that they'd perform well if they have the talent.

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05-29-2013, 07:46 PM
  #152
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Originally Posted by feedingschennzy View Post
While this may be unpopular around here, one idea that would be relatively inexpensive would be to make two smaller trades.

First send Coburn to Anaheim for Luca Sbisa and a 2nd/3rd round pick, then take that pick and flip it to Carolina for Jamie McBain.

With no other changes, our defense becomes

Timonen Schenn
Sbisa Grossmann
McBain Lauridsen/Gus

Admittedly this is an extremely soft top 6, but at the same time it is cheaper, adds speed, and maximizes our flexibility with other assets. Now, with the 11th pick we don't necessarily need a PMD but rather just the best defenseman available (or BPA and trade for the best defenseman available)
I would definitely do that. I just don't know if it is realistic

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05-29-2013, 08:47 PM
  #153
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I would definitely do that. I just don't know if it is realistic
I don't see that Anaheim would even see Coburn as equal to Sbisa, much less adding in a pick. I doubt we're isolated in seeing the inconsistency and frustrating inability to apply his potential. Coburn had definite trade value, but I believe he would have to fill a glaring need of size. Montreal would be the best trading partner for Coburn, though with Tinordi getting playoff minutes, that window may have closed.

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05-29-2013, 09:12 PM
  #154
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In that case, why wouldn't we just flip our own 2nd for McBain? No need to lose Coburn in the process.

Coburn will be fine once we stop trying to turn into something he's not and never will be.

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05-29-2013, 10:15 PM
  #155
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Why do people on this board always insist on trading for McBain? I personally don't want him on our team and I certainly wouldn't trade a 2nd round pick in a deep draft for him

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05-29-2013, 11:25 PM
  #156
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Originally Posted by hockeyfreak7 View Post
In that case, why wouldn't we just flip our own 2nd for McBain? No need to lose Coburn in the process.

Coburn will be fine once we stop trying to turn into something he's not and never will be.
The only way we keep Coburn is if Grossmann is still out with a concussion.
We do not need 4 defensive defensemen.
He is also overpaid to play on third pairing.

Schenn, Grossmann are top 2 defensive defensemen.
Coburn, Lauridsen - other 2 defensive defensemen.

Too many defensive guys, not enough PMD.
That is why Coburn or Grossmann must go.

I would prefer to keep Grossmann if healthy,
he hits people and plays with an edge.

Coburn is faster skater, but softer player.
Coburn is a defenseman without a postition,
skates like PMD, plays like PMD (not physical),
but has no offensive skills.

He is overrated and overpaid.

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05-29-2013, 11:39 PM
  #157
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I know he had a bad year and all but you would think Coburn was the next Mike Rathje the way you describe him.

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05-29-2013, 11:40 PM
  #158
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Originally Posted by DecadesofFutility View Post
The only way we keep Coburn is if Grossmann is still out with a concussion.
We do not need 4 defensive defensemen.
He is also overpaid to play on third pairing.

Schenn, Grossmann are top 2 defensive defensemen.
Coburn, Lauridsen - other 2 defensive defensemen.

Too many defensive guys, not enough PMD.
That is why Coburn or Grossmann must go.

I would prefer to keep Grossmann if healthy,
he hits people and plays with an edge.

Coburn is faster skater, but softer player.
Coburn is a defenseman without a postition,
skates like PMD, plays like PMD (not physical),
but has no offensive skills.

He is overrated and overpaid.

Nah.

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05-29-2013, 11:54 PM
  #159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DecadesofFutility View Post
The only way we keep Coburn is if Grossmann is still out with a concussion.
We do not need 4 defensive defensemen.
He is also overpaid to play on third pairing.

Schenn, Grossmann are top 2 defensive defensemen.
Coburn, Lauridsen - other 2 defensive defensemen.

Too many defensive guys, not enough PMD.
That is why Coburn or Grossmann must go.

I would prefer to keep Grossmann if healthy,
he hits people and plays with an edge.

Coburn is faster skater, but softer player.
Coburn is a defenseman without a postition,
skates like PMD, plays like PMD (not physical),
but has no offensive skills.

He is overrated and overpaid.
With all due respect, are you high?

Look, we have all seen what Coburn can do. He can't bring angry Coburn every game, but he can be a solid top pairing guy. And he is an iron man, having missed no more than 4 games since 2008.

Yes, eating that puck botched his development as some Hulk on skates. But the guy is an asset, much more so than Grossmann, who injuries are clearly taking a toll on, and will continue to be problematic in the long term.

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05-30-2013, 12:03 AM
  #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DecadesofFutility View Post
The only way we keep Coburn is if Grossmann is still out with a concussion.
We do not need 4 defensive defensemen.
He is also overpaid to play on third pairing.

Schenn, Grossmann are top 2 defensive defensemen.
Coburn, Lauridsen - other 2 defensive defensemen.

Too many defensive guys, not enough PMD.
That is why Coburn or Grossmann must go.

I would prefer to keep Grossmann if healthy,
he hits people and plays with an edge.

Coburn is faster skater, but softer player.
Coburn is a defenseman without a postition,
skates like PMD, plays like PMD (not physical),
but has no offensive skills.

He is overrated and overpaid.
Is it just me, or is this post full of ridiculousness?

If anybody needs to go, it's Meszaros. Keep Coburn, Grossmann and Schenn. Lauridsen shouldn't be a full-time NHLer yet. Coburn is really not overpaid when you look at comparable contracts and the players who have them.

Coburn was 3rd on the team in hits, just under Grossmann. They saw pretty similar amounts of ice time too regardless of games played. He had a brutal year for giveaways and he took a ridiculous amount of penalties, two things you failed to mention when saying why he sucks - and those are the two things that he actually sucked at this past season. Wanna know why Coburn rarely produces offense? He's used in a pure defensive role, seeing shifts with the checking lines and was paired with either Grossmann or Bruno "Brutal" Gervais. Gervais is easily the worst defender on the team. I also think it's obvious at this point that Coburn + a puck mover is the way he performs best. Coburn + Timonen was a great pairing.

Grossmann has become slightly overrated, as he is really not a great skater, puck carrier or a great passer. Decently physical, blocks a lot of shots and is pretty good defensively. He's an excellent guy to have holding down your third pairing though - think Matt Greene in Los Angeles, Oduya in Chicago, Murray in Pittsburgh, McQuaid in Boston ... one dimensional but physical, can play the PK and provide solid defensive play on a 3rd pairing. 3rd pairings are key to success in the NHL.

Coburn in a top-4 guy when he's on. He's obviously inconsistent and can't lead a pairing especially when paired with somebody who can't move the puck (Grossmann) or is just terrible (Gervais). He should be used as a 5v5 beast paired with Timonen and Schenn. It seems pretty simple to me. Put Coburn with Timonen again and I bet he'll return to form, and with Luke Schenn if we really wanted a pure defensive pairing.

Coburn - Timonen/L. Schenn
Gustafsson - Timonen/L. Schenn
Grossmann - PMD

Pretty simple, IMO. Even using Meszaros if healthy with Grossmann might be nice. The thing is, counting on Grossmann and Meszaros to stay healthy isn't really something we should be betting on. Grossmann had injury issues in Dallas, too. Specifically with his knee, and now with concussions.

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05-30-2013, 12:05 AM
  #161
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The way Grossmann plays the game is awesome but he is definitely going to have a short life in this league. Coburn is a big minutes guy and it's not easy to replace. Yeah he had a bad year but it's mostly because he was expected to play a more prominent role particularly offensively which he was unable to do. Get the right mix of D around a player like him and he'll be just fine and less of a liability. He definitely still has good value and is an asset more than some people think...

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05-30-2013, 12:13 AM
  #162
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Originally Posted by ahthorne View Post
Is it just me, or is this post full of ridiculousness?
No, it's not you.

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05-30-2013, 12:15 AM
  #163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyfreak7 View Post
In that case, why wouldn't we just flip our own 2nd for McBain? No need to lose Coburn in the process.

Coburn will be fine once we stop trying to turn into something he's not and never will be.
hes like Carle and that he needs to be babysat. He hasnt show that he can carry a pairing for long stetches. Coburn is a good player and he is very valuable when hes on. The problem is that he has not shown enough of it the last couple of seasons. This past season was arguably his worst as a pro and it ended with a injury.
Personally I think he should be traded. Now I am not looking to deal him for picks/prospect. There has to be a team out there that has a middle pairing defenseman who could also use a change of scenery.
I would not give up a 2nd for McBain. I cant understand why so many are high on the guy. Where does he fit on this team? a 3rd pairing defenseman? pass. I would rather draft a defenseman and develop him.

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05-30-2013, 01:07 AM
  #164
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I agree Mezzaros needs to go.
He is too fragile for a top pairing.
And too expensive to play on the bottom pair.

Coburn is too expensive for a bottom pair defenseman.
And Schenn is 1st pairing and Grossmann is 2nd pairing.
3rd pairing guys play less minutes and usually cost less
than we pay Coburn.
He is overpaid for the position he has earned on this defense.


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Old
05-30-2013, 02:00 AM
  #165
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Right now, I'd honestly take either Nurse or Pulock with the 11th overall depending on who's there, and give them their 9 game trial at the NHL level with someone who is solid positionally and see how they fare...

Timonen-Schenn
Gustafsson-Coburn
Pulock/Nurse-Grossmann

If they end up needing to go back to juniors after their performance within that time, maybe then you trade ~a 2nd for a guy like Demers or McBain for the 3rd pairing.

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05-30-2013, 02:03 AM
  #166
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Originally Posted by DecadesofFutility View Post
I agree Mezzaros needs to go.
He is too fragile for a top pairing.
And too expensive to play on the bottom pair.

Coburn is too expensive for a bottom pair defenseman.
And Schenn is 1st pairing and Grossmann is 2nd pairing.
3rd pairing guys play less minutes and usually cost less
than we pay Coburn.
He is overpaid for the position he has earned on this defense.
Coburn is not a bottom pairing guy. Even last season, when he wasn't great, he wasn't a bottom pairing defender.

Average ice time per game, 2012-13 season among defenders:

Coburn - 22:36, 1st in PK time per game and 5v5 time per game ... 41% offensive zone starts (tied for lowest among Flyers D)
Schenn - 21:51, 2nd in 5v5 time per game ... 46% offensive zone starts
Timonen - 21:45, 1st in PP time per game, 5th in 5v5 time per game ... 50% offensive zone starts
Gustafsson - 20:08, 3rd in 5v5 time per game and PP time per game ... 41% offensive zone starts (tied for lowest! GO GUS!)
Meszaros - 18:27, 2nd in PP time per game ... 43% offensive zone starts
Grossmann - 18:19, 2nd in PK time per game ... lowest time on ice per shift of any of the 'top-6' ... 44% offensive zone starts

Clearly, people like Grossmann and the way he plays and I agree - he's solid. He's most effective when used how we have used him though, seeing minutes like a 3rd pairing guy with PK and defensive prowess. He can lead a 3rd pairing, too, much like Meszaros did when he was at his best. That is how Grossmann should be used. Above info shows how Coburn was used in a defensive role and as a 5v5 workhorse against tough opponents, again showing how circumstance can often affect your production.

I'd love to see Meszaros replaced with a cheaper and more effective player for the bottom pairing. Perhaps they bring in a UFA for the 2nd pairing, remove Meszaros and use Gustafsson as his replacement. However, I 100% see Gustafsson used in a top-4 role and proving he belongs especially given the advanced stats he put up this past season.

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05-30-2013, 10:55 AM
  #167
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyfreak7 View Post
In that case, why wouldn't we just flip our own 2nd for McBain? No need to lose Coburn in the process.

Coburn will be fine once we stop trying to turn into something he's not and never will be.
Bingo. Coburn was never projected to be good offensively. He was expected to be a good defensive defenseman and that's exactly what he has turned out to be. Years ago he scored a couple nice goals in a short span of games and people got all crazy with expectations. Pair him with someone with some offensive skill like Timo and he's fine.

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05-30-2013, 11:05 AM
  #168
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Sorry to get off topic of the D conversation. I was wondering if anyone else feels like I do about Filppula. He is a UFA that IMO would fit very nicely on this team. (with the understanding that Briere will be bought out)

Hartnell-Giroux-Voracek
Simmonds-Schenn-Filppula
Read-Couturier-Rinaldo
Rosehill-Laughton-Talbot

McGinn/Akeson/Cousins

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05-30-2013, 11:35 AM
  #169
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Sorry to get off topic of the D conversation. I was wondering if anyone else feels like I do about Filppula. He is a UFA that IMO would fit very nicely on this team. (with the understanding that Briere will be bought out)

Hartnell-Giroux-Voracek
Simmonds-Schenn-Filppula
Read-Couturier-Rinaldo
Rosehill-Laughton-Talbot

McGinn/Akeson/Cousins
He's certainly skilled and can skate. His price might end up too high, as Detroit will try to keep him.

In the end, I suspect that the Flyers will either go bigger (Stalberg, Zubrus) or re-sign Gagne for the 2/3 spot, assuming they don't acquire Bobby Ryan.

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05-30-2013, 11:37 AM
  #170
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Vat Filp is supposedly asking for 5 million+ on a new deal. He is not worth that amount of money though.

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05-30-2013, 12:47 PM
  #171
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I don't understand why you guys keep defending Coburn

He simply isnt worth the money he's getting paid. He probably has the lowest hockey IQ in the league

If Holmgren can find a taker, where we get a defenseman in return, you do it.

The moment we trade him, you guys will all start saying how overrrated he was, just liek you guys did with JVR

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05-30-2013, 01:05 PM
  #172
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I don't understand why you guys keep defending Coburn

He simply isnt worth the money he's getting paid. He probably has the lowest hockey IQ in the league

If Holmgren can find a taker, where we get a defenseman in return, you do it.

The moment we trade him, you guys will all start saying how overrrated he was, just liek you guys did with JVR
people will love him because hes big and can skate. but as you said he has a low hockey IQ. he is probably the most frustrating player the Flyers have had in a long time. The skillset is there. He just cant put it together.
He is a bigger Randy Jones.

I am all for trading him. I really dont know how anyone can say he should never be traded.

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05-30-2013, 01:18 PM
  #173
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people will love him because hes big and can skate. but as you said he has a low hockey IQ. he is probably the most frustrating player the Flyers have had in a long time. The skillset is there. He just cant put it together.
He is a bigger Randy Jones.

I am all for trading him. I really dont know how anyone can say he should never be traded.
Nobody is saying that he should never be traded. I wouldn't even say that about Giroux. But he's good defensively and unless there's a deal that actually helps the team (as opposed to a "change of scenery" type thing) there's no good reason to trade him. He has his limits, which are the same as they've been since the Flyers traded for him. But as the other guy said, he's fine as long as you don't expect him to be something he's not.

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05-30-2013, 01:39 PM
  #174
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Plus, the Flyers don't have the luxury of simply dealing off a top minutes eater like Coburn, given the state of defensive potentials and prospects. I'm of the same mind about finding a good offensively minded Dman to pair with him.

The one I worry about is Grossmann. Two pretty significant concussions in two seasons is not a good omen.

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05-30-2013, 02:00 PM
  #175
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Nobody is saying that he should never be traded. I wouldn't even say that about Giroux. But he's good defensively and unless there's a deal that actually helps the team (as opposed to a "change of scenery" type thing) there's no good reason to trade him. He has his limits, which are the same as they've been since the Flyers traded for him. But as the other guy said, he's fine as long as you don't expect him to be something he's not.
At $4.5 Killion per season, that's lead pairing money. That's not complimentary money. Coburn is simply a luxury that this team can't afford. I could care less about the limited he plays because he just can't be relied upon to make constantly good decisions when he's on the ice. And honestly, you'd expect that after being paired with guys like Jason Smith, Derian Hatcher, and Kimmo Timonen, that some hockey sense would rub off on him, but he just hasn't been able to pull it together. I don't understand how one guy continually gets gets a pass. He's got to go and the sooner, the better.

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