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Why has Russia so low hockey population ?

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05-30-2013, 11:31 AM
  #1
Raptor1990
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Why has Russia so low hockey population ?

According to IIHF 63580 players about 0.05% of the population... ?

143,400,000 People...

Canada 33,476,688 people and over 550K players... 110 million people more than Canada...

The question is where are the other 400k+ of players ? On drugs ? Out of money ? Alcoholics ?

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05-30-2013, 01:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raptor1990 View Post
According to IIHF 63580 players about 0.05% of the population... ?

143,400,000 People...

Canada 33,476,688 people and over 550K players... 110 million people more than Canada...

The question is where are the other 400k+ of players ? On drugs ? Out of money ? Alcoholics ?
It's actually higher, they just have a different method of counting registered/licensed players. E.g. unlike Finland they don't count rec league players into those figures. Also junior teams have far more players but only the first team players are considered registered. I started a thread about the various methods/definitions last year: http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1300763

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05-30-2013, 01:56 PM
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Raptor1990
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Then its maybe around 80k players which is still laughable.

They should easily exceed over 500K players still...

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05-30-2013, 06:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Raptor1990 View Post
Then its maybe around 80k players which is still laughable.

They should easily exceed over 500K players still...
Well if one junior team has 1300 players of which only 20 count as registered...

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05-30-2013, 08:35 PM
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smitty10
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Most people don't realize that Russia has a very large population that lives below the poverty line. These people simply can't afford to play hockey.

I'm sure the number is actually around 200k+ though.

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05-30-2013, 09:12 PM
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Mr Kanadensisk
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Originally Posted by Jussi View Post
Well if one junior team has 1300 players of which only 20 count as registered...
You have never shown a shred of evidence to back up this kind of claim. If you look at the total number of indoor arenas you will see they correlate very closely with the number of registered juniors.

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05-30-2013, 09:15 PM
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Originally Posted by smitty10 View Post
Most people don't realize that Russia has a very large population that lives below the poverty line. These people simply can't afford to play hockey.

I'm sure the number is actually around 200k+ though.
The entire country only has 346 indoor rinks, so I doubt very much the numbers are much higher than reported.

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05-30-2013, 10:35 PM
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Originally Posted by smitty10 View Post
Most people don't realize that Russia has a very large population that lives below the poverty line. These people simply can't afford to play hockey.
Those 12%? Okay, count them out.
Seriously, Russia is not too different from Latvia or Slovakia that have much higher rates of hockey players per capita.

The problem is that most people don't realize how actually unpopular hockey in Russia is. The 60-70s hockey boom did result a widespread interest, hockey was overseen by the party and Brezhnev himself, it was a favorite kids winter pastime, but it didn't really left much of infrastructure to stick around. That world famous Soviet hockey school revolved mostly around one city and all the players at the international competitions belonged to the same four Moscow clubs. The rest of the country wasn't even close in catching up with other hockey powers.

And when the 90s arrived only those rudimentary hockey centeres that were lucky to get support from the big business concentrated around heavy industry got a chance to develop into the post-Soviet Russian hockey "hotbeds" we all know today, cities like Omsk, Magnitogorsk, Togliatti etc. That's where Russian hockey thrives, while most of the country cares for hockey only during the Olympics and the World Championships at best. It's a highly regionalized and niche sport. Hell, only 10 years ago even bandy drew much bigger crowds than hockey, because in the regions where it survived it had all the essential infrastructure and a century old tradition of being a major sport.


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05-31-2013, 04:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Mr Kanadensisk View Post
You have never shown a shred of evidence to back up this kind of claim. If you look at the total number of indoor arenas you will see they correlate very closely with the number of registered juniors.
I have quoted the personal experiences of a one Finn from a another message board. No one has offered evidence to dispute that story. If I may offer one clarification to that, he played in the Dynamo Moscow juniors, which means there's obviously more people living there and more kids. The number most likely aren't quite the same proportion elsewhere in Russia but the trend is obvious. There are more kids than officially registered, whether they train in indoor rinks or outdoor rink (I believe the poster in question said the kids outside the first team trained occasionally on outdoor rinks), is irrelevant.

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05-31-2013, 07:40 AM
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Raptor1990
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Originally Posted by obskyr View Post
Seriously, Russia is not too different from Latvia or Slovakia that have much higher rates of hockey players per capita.
What about monthly payments ? I played ice hockey in years 1998-2004 for HOBA Dubravka as goalie, those imbeciles asked about 50-60 eur per month... If you wanted to go to Slovan you needed a lot more money as provisions. There was a lot children out but only the ones with rich fathers could even play... Same in Ruzinov.


A lot of good hockey players ended this way...


Last edited by Raptor1990: 05-31-2013 at 03:11 PM.
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05-31-2013, 03:08 PM
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Mr Kanadensisk
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Originally Posted by Jussi View Post
I have quoted the personal experiences of a one Finn from a another message board. No one has offered evidence to dispute that story. If I may offer one clarification to that, he played in the Dynamo Moscow juniors, which means there's obviously more people living there and more kids. The number most likely aren't quite the same proportion elsewhere in Russia but the trend is obvious. There are more kids than officially registered, whether they train in indoor rinks or outdoor rink (I believe the poster in question said the kids outside the first team trained occasionally on outdoor rinks), is irrelevant.
As you saw in the other thread you started I put forward a considerable amount of evidence which supports that the number of registered U20 players in Russia is relatively accurate. Anyone can write anything in a forum, they might be mistaken or not telling the truth or you may be misunderstanding the context. Just saying, you keep stating this like it is a fact when the evidence shows it most likely is not.

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05-31-2013, 04:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raptor1990 View Post
According to IIHF 63580 players about 0.05% of the population... ?

143,400,000 People...

Canada 33,476,688 people and over 550K players... 110 million people more than Canada...

The question is where are the other 400k+ of players ? On drugs ? Out of money ? Alcoholics ?
I dont like your choice of words.

Other than that it's all a result of the system of counting so called registered players.

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05-31-2013, 04:20 PM
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Originally Posted by smitty10 View Post
Most people don't realize that Russia has a very large population that lives below the poverty line. These people simply can't afford to play hockey.

I'm sure the number is actually around 200k+ though.
That's not true. It's what a lot of ppl in the west still see Russia, a poor country and a country of the poor. Hoykey isn't a cheap sport, but that's not the main barrier here.

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05-31-2013, 04:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Raptor1990 View Post
What about monthly payments ? I played ice hockey in years 1998-2004 for HOBA Dubravka as goalie, those imbeciles asked about 50-60 eur per month... If you wanted to go to Slovan you needed a lot more money as provisions. There was a lot children out but only the ones with rich fathers could even play... Same in Ruzinov.


A lot of good hockey players ended this way...
There is nothing wrong with the basic concept. You don't like the fact that you have to pay for playing hockey until you reach a certain level? then fight to bring back the socialism. Of course there was and there is a lot of corruption in the system and maybe the more talented guys lose out against the ones with a rich daddy, but you can reform that(already happend on a lot of levels in Russia)but that's the main idea. To become a professional player a kid must go through a hockey school which his parents have to pay for. If you are talented enough, than at some level a school or a team will pay for you.


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05-31-2013, 04:34 PM
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do you know why? listen to http://mhl.khl.ru/news/index.php?ELEMENT_ID=281735

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05-31-2013, 04:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smitty10 View Post
Most people don't realize that Russia has a very large population that lives below the poverty line. These people simply can't afford to play hockey.

I'm sure the number is actually around 200k+ though.
I dont think it is a reason ... listen to radio interview with Efimov, head of MHL. He has that cca 1/2 of russian federal subjects has NO junior team... that there is cca 260 hockey schools (kids until 16/17) in Russia but only cca 50 junior clubs .. I dont think it has something to do with ordinary people but with strategy of Russia (FHR) in developing hockey. Simple, there is not federal program of developing... it is problem to raise hockey player in region where no hockey club is located. Etc.

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05-31-2013, 05:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr Kanadensisk View Post
As you saw in the other thread you started I put forward a considerable amount of evidence which supports that the number of registered U20 players in Russia is relatively accurate. Anyone can write anything in a forum, they might be mistaken or not telling the truth or you may be misunderstanding the context. Just saying, you keep stating this like it is a fact when the evidence shows it most likely is not.
Not evidence, your own deductions. Though I concur that the number of U-20 is closer to the truth than the number of senior players.

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05-31-2013, 06:13 PM
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Russia has taken major steps in the last 4 to 5 years to greatly expand the number of competitive youth hockey players in the country. In 5 years or so, it is likely that you will be able to see a major upgrade in the number and quality of competitive players in the junior leagues. Beer leagues and washed up 40 year olds count for a huge percentage of the number of registered players in the USA and Canada. Who cares about players who just go out to play to get together with the guys?

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05-31-2013, 06:30 PM
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I'-v mentioned this numerous times the hey day of Russian Hockey was during the communist era.Many parents cannot afford the costs.In Quebec Hockey has lost thousands of kids and has little to do with concussions.Football in highschools in Quebec is huge and has surpassed some american regions.Single parents have a tough time paying thousands a dollars a year it takes for a 13 yrs old kid.In school the costs are minimal compared to hockey.I'-m forty five yrs old and g5rowing up most kids played outdoors all the time and played hockey not any more.The percentage of kids playing it is low.And something needs to be done and in a hurry

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05-31-2013, 06:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr Kanadensisk View Post
As you saw in the other thread you started I put forward a considerable amount of evidence which supports that the number of registered U20 players in Russia is relatively accurate. Anyone can write anything in a forum, they might be mistaken or not telling the truth or you may be misunderstanding the context. Just saying, you keep stating this like it is a fact when the evidence shows it most likely is not.
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Originally Posted by Jussi View Post
Not evidence, your own deductions. Though I concur that the number of U-20 is closer to the truth than the number of senior players.
But what is the definition of registered player Canada? Imo, the definition is applied extremely liberally there.

I have an old work colleague from Sault Ste. Marie who is registered but only plays open hockey.....his kid is also registered yet plays every Saturday in some community center league. Those two would certainly NOT be considered registered in Russia.


Maybe Jussi would have more on this, but info from another forum I post at I found:

Code:
Finnish national sports survey conducted in 2005-06.

Adults (19-65):
Total ice hockey players: 90,000 
Total ice hockey players in club hockey: 33,000 

Juniors (3-18):
Total ice hockey players: 105,000 
Total ice hockey players in club hockey: 47,500
I'm told only club players are considered registered...although I'm uneducated to what the definition of a club hockey player is.


Last edited by Zine: 05-31-2013 at 07:01 PM.
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05-31-2013, 08:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Zine View Post
But what is the definition of registered player Canada? Imo, the definition is applied extremely liberally there.

I have an old work colleague from Sault Ste. Marie who is registered but only plays open hockey.....his kid is also registered yet plays every Saturday in some community center league. Those two would certainly NOT be considered registered in Russia.


Maybe Jussi would have more on this, but info from another forum I post at I found:

Code:
Finnish national sports survey conducted in 2005-06.

Adults (19-65):
Total ice hockey players: 90,000 
Total ice hockey players in club hockey: 33,000 

Juniors (3-18):
Total ice hockey players: 105,000 
Total ice hockey players in club hockey: 47,500
I'm told only club players are considered registered...although I'm uneducated to what the definition of a club hockey player is.
between russia and canada the ratio of u20 players and the ratio of indoor rinks are pretty much identical, and that the same ratio plays out, as you would expect, in many other areas of the game. I know many people wish the hockey program in Russia was bigger, but the numbers are what they are.

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05-31-2013, 08:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zine View Post
Maybe Jussi would have more on this, but info from another forum I post at I found:

Code:
Finnish national sports survey conducted in 2005-06.

Adults (19-65):
Total ice hockey players: 90,000 
Total ice hockey players in club hockey: 33,000 

Juniors (3-18):
Total ice hockey players: 105,000 
Total ice hockey players in club hockey: 47,500
I'm told only club players are considered registered...although I'm uneducated to what the definition of a club hockey player is.
I refer to my post from the thread I linked and the link in the post to the then current license fees in Finnish hockey: http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...7&postcount=20

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05-31-2013, 09:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr Kanadensisk View Post
between russia and canada the ratio of u20 players and the ratio of indoor rinks are pretty much identical, and that the same ratio plays out, as you would expect, in many other areas of the game. I know many people wish the hockey program in Russia was bigger, but the numbers are what they are.
I severely doubt that the number of indoor rinks listed in the IIHF website for Russia (346) is accurate, but at this stage, Russia is building new rinks at an accelerated pace. But still, if the rinks are used to the maximum of their capacity, 346 rinks is more than enough to build a world class contender for every kind of hockey trophy. After all, with only 50 rinks, the Soviet Union won many Olympic Gold Medals, World Championships, a Canada Cup, a Challenge Cup, and a Rendezvous '87 trophy. Not that bad, for only 50 rinks.

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05-31-2013, 10:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr Kanadensisk View Post
between russia and canada the ratio of u20 players and the ratio of indoor rinks are pretty much identical, and that the same ratio plays out, as you would expect, in many other areas of the game. I know many people wish the hockey program in Russia was bigger, but the numbers are what they are.
Identical ratios of U20 players to indoor rinks? Umm...no.

Even if we assume # of indoor rinks are a factor and IIHF numbers apply equally to everybody, we still have HUGE discrepancies.

Registered players per indoor rink
CZE 230
CAN 183
RUS 177
SWE 156
USA 153
FIN 143
SVK 138


If we multiply these figures by hundreds to represent an equal representation of # of players relevant to eachother, we get very sizable discrepancies and in no way are these figures rational nor uniform.


Sorry, even by your own flawed criteria, it's quite obvious that the definition of registered player does not apply equally across the board....not all all.


Last edited by Zine: 05-31-2013 at 11:02 PM.
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05-31-2013, 11:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
I severely doubt that the number of indoor rinks listed in the IIHF website for Russia (346) is accurate, but at this stage, Russia is building new rinks at an accelerated pace. But still, if the rinks are used to the maximum of their capacity, 346 rinks is more than enough to build a world class contender for every kind of hockey trophy. After all, with only 50 rinks, the Soviet Union won many Olympic Gold Medals, World Championships, a Canada Cup, a Challenge Cup, and a Rendezvous '87 trophy. Not that bad, for only 50 rinks.
Absolutely that is big enough to win some international tournaments, especially if the Russians find a way to get in more team prep time like they used to .

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