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05-30-2013, 01:32 PM
  #776
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Originally Posted by JDinklage Morgoone View Post
I like the way you laid this out. I think Brown is turning a corner right now right in front of our eyes. So exciting!
That's exactly what I think is happening. I'm sure he'll still hit some rough spots along the way but he's shortened up his swing and flattened it out, and you can see he has confidence at the plate now. His fielding can still use some work but that will come.

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05-30-2013, 01:54 PM
  #777
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In 2011 the Phillies had the best record in baseball. Brown hit .245 with 5 HR in 56 games. Why would they need him? He simply would not have gotten the playing time because he hadn't shown that he could hold down a spot in the lineup. In that situation, when the expectation is to win, or at least get to, the WS it makes sense to go with the veteran player.

I would say the proof is in the way he's hitting right now. He appears to have benefitted from the time in the minors. There's just no reason to believe that giving him a regular job sooner would have benefitted either him or the team. And it may very well have hurt him. When he first came up it was obvious that he had talent but was raw. I didn't even realize until I just looked it up, but he was taken in the 20th round of the draft. And you want to compare him to Harper who was 1st overall? Trout who was taken 25th overall? Heyward who was 14th overall?

Just because a lot of people soured on Ibanez (and I know they did, with some reason at least) doesn't mean you rush a guy to the majors because you think that someday he may be a star. He should have to prove that he belongs first, and I don't think Brown did that.
And Ibanez hit .245 in 144 games. He hit more homeruns but factoring in Brown's numbers with games he played Brown probably would've hit around 15 homeruns in the same amount of games. As has been said, he was hitting great in the minors. At least they had an excuse with Howard and Utley as those two went to college first before being drafted. There is no excuse for what they did to Brown.

And yeah, I know exactly where the drafted Dom. He was also ranked up with the top prospects you mentioned when he was lighting up AAA. Where he was drafted does not matter. He proved to everyone that he had great potential and he did well in every level. He was ready for the big leagues. Instead the Phillies for two years pulled him up and down, made him learn a completely different position, and sat him in exchange for guys like Francisco, Ibanez, and Mayberry. Any player is going to struggle under those circumstances. And any player is going to have a down period where they can't hit the ball. The difference is other teams leave that guy alone and let him play. Not us, though.

The truth is they don't want him to start this early cause that means that he's arb eligible earlier and that they'll have to start paying for him. Plus, Ibanez was getting millions and they weren't about to sit him for that kind of money. Other organizations have no problem bringing up their young guys, whether they are competing or not.

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05-30-2013, 02:43 PM
  #778
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In 2011 the Phillies had the best record in baseball. Brown hit .245 with 5 HR in 56 games. Why would they need him? He simply would not have gotten the playing time because he hadn't shown that he could hold down a spot in the lineup. In that situation, when the expectation is to win, or at least get to, the WS it makes sense to go with the veteran player.

I would say the proof is in the way he's hitting right now. He appears to have benefitted from the time in the minors. There's just no reason to believe that giving him a regular job sooner would have benefitted either him or the team. And it may very well have hurt him. When he first came up it was obvious that he had talent but was raw. I didn't even realize until I just looked it up, but he was taken in the 20th round of the draft. And you want to compare him to Harper who was 1st overall? Trout who was taken 25th overall? Heyward who was 14th overall?

Just because a lot of people soured on Ibanez (and I know they did, with some reason at least) doesn't mean you rush a guy to the majors because you think that someday he may be a star. He should have to prove that he belongs first, and I don't think Brown did that.
Brown was drafted that low because it was largely assumed that he was going to college to play football. If teams were more confident that they could get him signed he would've been a much higher pick. Anyway it doesn't really matter where he was picked when you look at what his prospect ranking was after 2010.

And as it was pointed out, he wasn't doing that badly in 2011, and he was hot for a month before they traded for Pence. It would have been the better move to keep the prospects they dumped for Pence and have Brown play instead. Most teams probably would have done just that with a prospect of Brown's caliber.

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05-30-2013, 03:08 PM
  #779
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Originally Posted by JackStraw View Post
In 2011 the Phillies had the best record in baseball. Brown hit .245 with 5 HR in 56 games. Why would they need him? He simply would not have gotten the playing time because he hadn't shown that he could hold down a spot in the lineup. In that situation, when the expectation is to win, or at least get to, the WS it makes sense to go with the veteran player.

I would say the proof is in the way he's hitting right now. He appears to have benefitted from the time in the minors. There's just no reason to believe that giving him a regular job sooner would have benefitted either him or the team. And it may very well have hurt him. When he first came up it was obvious that he had talent but was raw. I didn't even realize until I just looked it up, but he was taken in the 20th round of the draft. And you want to compare him to Harper who was 1st overall? Trout who was taken 25th overall? Heyward who was 14th overall?
First, where he was drafted doesn't matter. Baseball has 20+ rounds for a reason. He was the 3rd or 4th ranked prospect in baseball at one point, that's all you should need to know about his minor league career, and what scouts thought of him.

Ibanez was horrible. He hit .245 in way more at bats than Brown, and showed that he did not deserve playing time. It would have been the perfect spot to bring someone like Brown along. He would not be the focal point of the team at all, in fact he'd be replacing the teams worst player at the time, while getting experience on a winning club in big games, big situations, and the playoffs.

The only reason he's hitting now is because he's actually been given a chance to, and doesn't have a bum hand or hamstring. People, on WIP anyway, seem to think it's some sort of black magic that he's hitting like he is, when the truth is as soon as the kid was actually given a legitimate chance he's showing what he can do. He said that exact thing in spring training, and people were jumping all over him saying how can he talk like that he hasn't done anything. He was right. He just needed AB's.

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Just because a lot of people soured on Ibanez (and I know they did, with some reason at least) doesn't mean you rush a guy to the majors because you think that someday he may be a star. He should have to prove that he belongs first, and I don't think Brown did that.
Ibanez had an under .290O BP, even with Brown hitting for the same average he had a 40+ point higher OBP. People can't prove they're worth something until they're given a chance. He's finally been given a chance this year and by the time it's over I think he'll have shown what he can do. He still has a lot of room for improvement in his OBP. His average will hopefully increase, and his walk rate should as well because it's abnormally low.

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05-30-2013, 03:30 PM
  #780
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Other teams do not give a prospect who's fielding is shaky and who's hitting is poor regular jobs when they are WS contenders and they have another player who is as good or better. Which Ibanez was. The Phillies did give Brown his chance, multiple times. He didn't take advantage of those chances. He showed flashes but never showed that he could be an everyday player until now.

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05-30-2013, 03:32 PM
  #781
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Originally Posted by Protest View Post
First, where he was drafted doesn't matter. Baseball has 20+ rounds for a reason. He was the 3rd or 4th ranked prospect in baseball at one point, that's all you should need to know about his minor league career, and what scouts thought of him.

Ibanez was horrible. He hit .245 in way more at bats than Brown, and showed that he did not deserve playing time. It would have been the perfect spot to bring someone like Brown along. He would not be the focal point of the team at all, in fact he'd be replacing the teams worst player at the time, while getting experience on a winning club in big games, big situations, and the playoffs.

The only reason he's hitting now is because he's actually been given a chance to, and doesn't have a bum hand or hamstring. People, on WIP anyway, seem to think it's some sort of black magic that he's hitting like he is, when the truth is as soon as the kid was actually given a legitimate chance he's showing what he can do. He said that exact thing in spring training, and people were jumping all over him saying how can he talk like that he hasn't done anything. He was right. He just needed AB's.



Ibanez had an under .290O BP, even with Brown hitting for the same average he had a 40+ point higher OBP. People can't prove they're worth something until they're given a chance. He's finally been given a chance this year and by the time it's over I think he'll have shown what he can do. He still has a lot of room for improvement in his OBP. His average will hopefully increase, and his walk rate should as well because it's abnormally low.
No. The reason he's hitting now is because he no longer has that big looping uppercut. He is not the same hitter he was.

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05-30-2013, 03:34 PM
  #782
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Dom's hitting was not poor in 2011. It was league average and that's taking his entire season into account. He was hitting much better at the time his playing time went to basically 0. And he was one of the top prospects in the game, so there was ample reason to expect he could improve. His fielding was shaky, yes, but when you're comparing him to Raul Ibanez it's not like he'd be hurting you that much more.

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05-30-2013, 03:40 PM
  #783
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Originally Posted by zarley zelepukin View Post
Dom's hitting was not poor in 2011. It was league average and that's taking his entire season into account. He was hitting much better at the time his playing time went to basically 0. And he was one of the top prospects in the game, so there was ample reason to expect he could improve. His fielding was shaky, yes, but when you're comparing him to Raul Ibanez it's not like he'd be hurting you that much more.
As I said, in 2011 the Phillies had the best record in baseball. Dom Brown was not going to help the team, and his fielding would have hurt them even if only somewhat compared to Ibanez. .245 is not good enough for a corner outfielder. And yes, I know that's what Ibanez hit. But he at least had slightly better power numbers and was a better fielder.

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05-30-2013, 03:48 PM
  #784
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As I said, in 2011 the Phillies had the best record in baseball. Dom Brown was not going to help the team, and his fielding would have hurt them even if only somewhat compared to Ibanez. .245 is not good enough for a corner outfielder. And yes, I know that's what Ibanez hit. But he at least had slightly better power numbers and was a better fielder.
And Brown had better on-base numbers. All things considered, Brown was a better hitter in 2011 than Ibanez was. And again, was hitting much better than Ibanez at the time of the Pence trade. So if you have two guys who are basically equal players, but one is younger and has way more upside, which one should be playing?

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05-30-2013, 04:04 PM
  #785
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Originally Posted by zarley zelepukin View Post
And Brown had better on-base numbers. All things considered, Brown was a better hitter in 2011 than Ibanez was. And again, was hitting much better than Ibanez at the time of the Pence trade. So if you have two guys who are basically equal players, but one is younger and has way more upside, which one should be playing?
If you are expecting to at minimum get to the World Series, the veteran. Brown offered nothing over Ibanez at the time other than potential.

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05-30-2013, 04:17 PM
  #786
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If you are expecting to at minimum get to the World Series, the veteran. Brown offered nothing over Ibanez at the time other than potential.
that and a higher on base percentage...

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05-30-2013, 05:23 PM
  #787
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Other teams do not give a prospect who's fielding is shaky and who's hitting is poor regular jobs when they are WS contenders and they have another player who is as good or better. Which Ibanez was. The Phillies did give Brown his chance, multiple times. He didn't take advantage of those chances. He showed flashes but never showed that he could be an everyday player until now.
Yes he did. For the first month he came up his hitting was fine. Then he started to struggle and the Phillies sent him back down again. Your sample sizes are too small. We know what Ibanez gave us, a .245 average, no speed, and some power. We had no idea what Brown could've given us because he didn't get enough at bats.

And Ibanez only looked better at fielding because he wasn't getting to that many balls, therefore not many errors. Brown's UZR was -7.5, not really great but nothing compared to Ibanez who was -19.2. That is godawful. So the only thing Ibanez maybe had was power and even that is not that far apart.

The Phillies played Ibanez cause he cost 12 million dollars and they didn't want to waste that cash. And what did we get for that veteran presence in the PO? A .200 average and one homerun. He didn't even play every game in the series.

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05-30-2013, 07:31 PM
  #788
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I saw Brown's first game with the Phillies and I'm watching him right now. And probably most of the games he's played with the Phils in between except last year when I didn't get either the MLB TV or internet package. I'm not trying to defend the Phillies management. I'm giving you my opinion from watching him play. Until this year he didn't look like a major league player to me. The athletic talent was obvious but it takes more than that to hit a major league breaking ball consistently. Brown didn't show me anything that would have made me believe that he would ever be able to do that. Until this year.

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05-30-2013, 07:34 PM
  #789
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Gotta be f***ing kidding me Kratz

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05-30-2013, 07:38 PM
  #790
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that and a higher on base percentage...
That's not really what you're looking for in the bottom half of the order. Power is more important.

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05-30-2013, 07:41 PM
  #791
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Cesar made a sweet double play move.

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05-30-2013, 07:45 PM
  #792
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Cesar made a sweet double play move.
Yes he did. It's all for naught though as Horst is loosening up

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05-30-2013, 07:51 PM
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That's not really what you're looking for in the bottom half of the order. Power is more important.
But the power difference wasn't very big. Regardless you said the only thing Brown had on Ibanez was potential which simply isn't true, that's all I was pointing out. Anyway, I think Phillies management handled the situation poorly in general (calling Dom up and sending him down repeatedly). If they thought Dom could use more seasoning then leave him in the minors period.

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05-30-2013, 07:56 PM
  #794
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That's not really what you're looking for in the bottom half of the order. Power is more important.
You should be looking for the best hitters you can get in each spot in the lineup. Brown's edge in on-base ability was larger than Ibanez' edge in power. Ibanez generally hit either 5th or 6th that year, so it's not like the pitcher was due up behind him anyway. And even if he was, we have a guy in Rollins who often got a lot of RBIs in the leadoff spot in no small part because Carlos Ruiz was hitting 8th and got on base often.

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05-30-2013, 07:59 PM
  #795
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No reason to have Horst in there against Gomes. He's a perfect example of a guy who kills lefties and is mediocre against righties.

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05-30-2013, 08:17 PM
  #796
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Originally Posted by FlyersFan61290 View Post
But the power difference wasn't very big. Regardless you said the only thing Brown had on Ibanez was potential which simply isn't true, that's all I was pointing out. Anyway, I think Phillies management handled the situation poorly in general (calling Dom up and sending him down repeatedly). If they thought Dom could use more seasoning then leave him in the minors period.
That I agree with. They brought him up too soon then bounced him up and down. Better to have given him more time in the minors.

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05-30-2013, 08:26 PM
  #797
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You should be looking for the best hitters you can get in each spot in the lineup. Brown's edge in on-base ability was larger than Ibanez' edge in power. Ibanez generally hit either 5th or 6th that year, so it's not like the pitcher was due up behind him anyway. And even if he was, we have a guy in Rollins who often got a lot of RBIs in the leadoff spot in no small part because Carlos Ruiz was hitting 8th and got on base often.
In the 5 spot you want protection for Howard. I don't think a credible argument can be made that Brown could have provided that. 6th you hope you have someone who can drive in runners still left on base. OBP is not a big deal there and it's not like Brown's was good anyway. Ibanez had a good MLB career behind him, even if he was close to the end of it. Brown had proven nothing at the MLB level to that point.

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05-30-2013, 09:53 PM
  #798
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Why is Chad Durbin still pitching in this league?

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05-31-2013, 01:21 PM
  #799
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RHP Chad Durbin was released today. To take his place on 25-man roster, LHP Joe Savery was recalled

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05-31-2013, 01:23 PM
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Good bye Durbin. You won't be ****ing missed.

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