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Old
05-30-2013, 11:50 AM
  #101
scotchex
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Originally Posted by SavageSteve View Post
I agree with that to an extent, but RBI's impact is relatively minimal in comparison to what it could be. I have a childhood friend that has worked as a city manager in a few municipalities in St. Louis County and talked about how difficult it was just to get RBI or Cardinals charities to pay attention to that and build an inner-city field.

The lack of black athletes in baseball is kind of alarming considering all of the reverence to Jackie Robinson MLB plays up and should be focused on getting those kids to see Jackie as a role-model to follow instead of some dude in a history book.
The black % in MLB is actually higher than the black % in America as a whole. Though that # includes a lot of Dominican players.
The % of US born black players in MLB is slightly under the % in America - 9% vs 13%.

Where is the media concern about the huge lack of white players in the NBA? Or asian? Or hispanic?

Of all the major pro sports, MLB's demographics most closely match the demographics of America. Yet baseball is constantly hammered for the lack of black players.

Why is the NBA not hammered for a lack of diversity? NBA is 80%+ black and only 10% US born white players. Astonishing given the vast majority of Americans are white.

MLB has tons of hispanic and asian players. Tons of hispanic and asian star players. The NBA doesn't.

The NBA is praised for being "diverse" yet has the least diverse demographics. Because, for most people, "diverse" just means non-white. So an NBA team of all black American guys somehow counts as diverse.

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05-30-2013, 12:47 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by scotchex View Post
The black % in MLB is actually higher than the black % in America as a whole. Though that # includes a lot of Dominican players.
The % of US born black players in MLB is slightly under the % in America - 9% vs 13%.

Where is the media concern about the huge lack of white players in the NBA? Or asian? Or hispanic?

Of all the major pro sports, MLB's demographics most closely match the demographics of America. Yet baseball is constantly hammered for the lack of black players.

Why is the NBA not hammered for a lack of diversity? NBA is 80%+ black and only 10% US born white players. Astonishing given the vast majority of Americans are white.

MLB has tons of hispanic and asian players. Tons of hispanic and asian star players. The NBA doesn't.

The NBA is praised for being "diverse" yet has the least diverse demographics. Because, for most people, "diverse" just means non-white. So an NBA team of all black American guys somehow counts as diverse.
Look at what you said about the diversity of black MLB players; they are mostly Hispanic (Dominican). Kids in the Caribbean play baseball today like kids did in the streets in the 30's and 40's in America. Kids in America today generally seem to play either organized soccer or pick-up basketball in the streets. Given the disproportionate amount of coverage towards minorities in modern national media in general, go figure what is pushed and gets the kids attention.

I think one other thing that can also be inferred from this is overall movement towards regionalization in many things. Look at the farm to table movement in many high-end restaurants, local craft breweries, local distilleries, etc. that signify a change towards embracing what is local and defines an area more so than the bland sameness of chain restaurants, Bud or Miller swill, etc. Maybe we are just witnessing the evolution of the multiple platforms that media can be delivered to its consumers with old media throwing buckets of money to cling to its throne and stay relevant. I've long since quit watching major media newscasts and sports shows (SportsCenter) since they harp too much on the Northeastern US and all of the bad things that happen in the fly-over states while giving token coverage to teams they are not getting ratings for in major markets. In turn the fly-over patrons begin to abandon them and turn to social media and the internet to deliver what they actually care about without having to hear about the aftermath of Tim Tebow or LeBron taking a 9 lb dump in a public washroom in East Hackensack that clogged the lateral to Snooki's condo.

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05-30-2013, 02:09 PM
  #103
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You know how they had X-Football or whatever it was? And now they have Twenty20 cricket (a game of international cricket in which the broadcast is 2 hours long instead of 4-6). Well I'm surprised that something similar hasn't been done for baseball. Baseball highlights are great but the game is so slow. Lengthy time between pitches, constant breaks because innings are fairly short and so on.

I wonder if someone were to use a faster style of baseball with longer and fewer innings and time between pitches along with simplified easy to follow rules and try it on TV then if it would catch on.

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05-30-2013, 04:52 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by SavageSteve View Post
Look at what you said about the diversity of black MLB players; they are mostly Hispanic (Dominican). Kids in the Caribbean play baseball today like kids did in the streets in the 30's and 40's in America. Kids in America today generally seem to play either organized soccer or pick-up basketball in the streets. Given the disproportionate amount of coverage towards minorities in modern national media in general, go figure what is pushed and gets the kids attention.

I think one other thing that can also be inferred from this is overall movement towards regionalization in many things. Look at the farm to table movement in many high-end restaurants, local craft breweries, local distilleries, etc. that signify a change towards embracing what is local and defines an area more so than the bland sameness of chain restaurants, Bud or Miller swill, etc. Maybe we are just witnessing the evolution of the multiple platforms that media can be delivered to its consumers with old media throwing buckets of money to cling to its throne and stay relevant. I've long since quit watching major media newscasts and sports shows (SportsCenter) since they harp too much on the Northeastern US and all of the bad things that happen in the fly-over states while giving token coverage to teams they are not getting ratings for in major markets. In turn the fly-over patrons begin to abandon them and turn to social media and the internet to deliver what they actually care about without having to hear about the aftermath of Tim Tebow or LeBron taking a 9 lb dump in a public washroom in East Hackensack that clogged the lateral to Snooki's condo.
What you said was 100 percent correct and you can see in Canada as well.


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05-31-2013, 09:56 AM
  #105
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I agree with that to an extent, but RBI's impact is relatively minimal in comparison to what it could be. I have a childhood friend that has worked as a city manager in a few municipalities in St. Louis County and talked about how difficult it was just to get RBI or Cardinals charities to pay attention to that and build an inner-city field.

The lack of black athletes in baseball is kind of alarming considering all of the reverence to Jackie Robinson MLB plays up and should be focused on getting those kids to see Jackie as a role-model to follow instead of some dude in a history book.
The problem is that there's no monetary incentive for MLB to do so besides corporate social responsibility.

If I'm the Giants and I build some fields, pay for some coaching, etc. in Hunter's Point and a really great young black kid arises, he'll just end up getting drafted by somebody else.

Meanwhile I can build an academy in the Dominican Republic, sign a billion Dominican kids for a song, and one of them might be the new Juan Marichal.

An international draft is coming, so it'll be interesting to see how teams try and get an edge - maybe the inner city becomes popular again.

This doesn't just affect black kids though, hardly any top prospects come from the city anymore it seems.

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05-31-2013, 10:20 AM
  #106
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I've been neglecting a couple things that, BTW, are related.

If you go back from 1990, look at Skydome/Rogers, look at Ballpark at Arlington. Those two plus New Comiskey/US Cellular are the only ballparks in the recent building boom that were built with larger capacity than their predecessors. US Cellular subsequently downsized.

The purpose of that was to increase the value of the midweek tickets.

Leave it to @darrenrovell to conduct a wholly unscientific survey about why people aren't attending baseball games. I believe 65% said price of tickets.

Darren's alter ego is @BizballMaury (actual baseball fan, while Rovell is very much football media), but Maury focuses sometimes on the ticket resale market and tends to find a lot of deep discounts.

So, I'm thinking baseball made an interesting short-term bet on these ballparks and won the short term. The burning question: what of the long term?

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05-31-2013, 10:51 AM
  #107
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Most of the new stadiums also played on boomer nostalgia with their designs which has helped drive baseball popularity for about 20 years now. That "old time baseball" look was a huge marketing success. But 1997's middle-aged NPR-listening guy who loved baseball as sort of a quirky reminder of "old-time" America with main street stores and all that is now approaching retirement and life as a senior citizen.

I think all this talk about inner-city baseball and programs to encourage it etc., I think it's a pseudo debate. If kids were interested in playing it, they'd be playing it. They aren't playing it because they aren't interested. Could that marketing push toward nostalgia have turned off youngsters?

Perhaps, but perhaps one can also question why baseball ought to be more popular than basketball or soccer for that matter in the first place. As a MLB executive I might think it should for obvious reasons but why would it be surprising that out of 100 kids given a choice between different activities only a relatively low number of them would pick baseball.

I think baseball's decline is the story of a one-time (near) monopoly that is regressing simply due to the appearance and popularization of alternatives.

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05-31-2013, 11:55 AM
  #108
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Growing revenues is the stupidest argument otherwise intelligent people trot out on this board all the time. Why am I supposed to be amazed with MLB's revenue growth over the past 20 years when every other league has seen a similar percentage of growth? Because the order hasn't changed since 1994? Wow, baseball's kept up with inflation, how amazing.

Baseball was priority 1, 1A, 1B, 1C, 2, 2A, 2B, 2C and 3 for every sports fan in this country for a century. Since 1970, it's loss of market share has been swift and startling. A lot of those wounds are self inflicted, true, but does anyone honestly believe Habs' scenario wherein a 20 year old today who's never cared about a World Series in his life suddenly discovers that he loves baseball at age 35? That's wishful thinking.

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05-31-2013, 01:05 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Brodie View Post
Growing revenues is the stupidest argument otherwise intelligent people trot out on this board all the time. Why am I supposed to be amazed with MLB's revenue growth over the past 20 years when every other league has seen a similar percentage of growth? Because the order hasn't changed since 1994? Wow, baseball's kept up with inflation, how amazing.

Baseball was priority 1, 1A, 1B, 1C, 2, 2A, 2B, 2C and 3 for every sports fan in this country for a century. Since 1970, it's loss of market share has been swift and startling. A lot of those wounds are self inflicted, true, but does anyone honestly believe Habs' scenario wherein a 20 year old today who's never cared about a World Series in his life suddenly discovers that he loves baseball at age 35? That's wishful thinking.
NBA revenue in 1996: $2.3 bn.
MLB revenue in 1996: $1.78 bn.

NBA revenue in 2012-13: $~5 bn.
MLB revenue in 2013: $~8bn.

David Stern, Mr. Awesome Commissioner, undisputed leader of the most likely candidate by almost universal agreement to displace the national pastime, got his rear end handed to him on a dirty, bent tray by ....Bud Selig.

So not only did MLB beat inflation (by something like eight times inflation) it kicked the ****ing crap out of the NBA.

Swift and startling my ass. The NBA gets people to watch 7 games, MLB gets people to watch 162. For God's sake, the Mets get 75% the average households per game that the New York Knicks get. The Yankees get about as much as the Knicks and Nets got combined last year. That's despite playing day games, playing more 10 pm starts on the West Coast, playing 162 games versus 82 so nobody feels too bad about missing a game.

As for your second point, baseball has a 50 year-plus track record of converting people to being fans when they get older. The NBA's got a 30 year plus record of losing fans as they get older. All those 20 year olds in the 60s who thought pro football was cooler are now those Medicare-loving baseball fans, all the 15 year olds who had Bird and Magic posters on their walls are the middle-aged white guys who hate the NBA.

If you don't want philosophizing about God, your father and your place in history, fine. Baseball's still the most affordable, convenient sport going that allows you to sit outside in good weather in the day time and drink in your seat without missing a quarter due to lines. You can take your kids to it, and you can get there without a car in most cities.

Little League registration is dropping, but most kids still try baseball at some point, and dropping baseball doesn't preclude getting interested in it again. I chose rugby because I was better at it, I now barely watch rugby, watch tons of baseball and play softball a couple times a week.

Speaking of softball, that's still a behemoth in girls sports, and in my experience a lot of softball players enjoy watching baseball. So baseball's fanbase becomes more female-oriented...that's not a bad thing. Seems accurate to me too, when I go to a Giants game there are a ton more women in the stadium than when I've ever been to a football game and certainly at a soccer game in the UK.

So, to recount:

1) Baseball's revenue has skyrocketed compared to other sports.

2) Local TV ratings are really strong, much stronger than the NBA's.

3) Baseball has a track record of converting older people to fans. For emotional, historical...AND practical reasons.

4) The "kids hate baseball" talking point is vastly overplayed...and doesn't mean they won't become baseball fans later anyway.

The game is strong, my friends.

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05-31-2013, 01:11 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Brodie View Post
Growing revenues is the stupidest argument otherwise intelligent people trot out on this board all the time. Why am I supposed to be amazed with MLB's revenue growth over the past 20 years when every other league has seen a similar percentage of growth? Because the order hasn't changed since 1994? Wow, baseball's kept up with inflation, how amazing.

Baseball was priority 1, 1A, 1B, 1C, 2, 2A, 2B, 2C and 3 for every sports fan in this country for a century. Since 1970, it's loss of market share has been swift and startling. A lot of those wounds are self inflicted, true, but does anyone honestly believe Habs' scenario wherein a 20 year old today who's never cared about a World Series in his life suddenly discovers that he loves baseball at age 35? That's wishful thinking.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HabsByTheBay View Post
NBA revenue in 1996: $2.3 bn.
MLB revenue in 1996: $1.78 bn.

NBA revenue in 2012-13: $~5 bn.
MLB revenue in 2013: $~8bn.

David Stern, Mr. Awesome Commissioner, undisputed leader of the most likely candidate by almost universal agreement to displace the national pastime, got his rear end handed to him on a dirty, bent tray by ....Bud Selig.

So not only did MLB beat inflation (by something like eight times inflation) it kicked the ****ing crap out of the NBA.

Swift and startling my ass. The NBA gets people to watch 7 games, MLB gets people to watch 162. For God's sake, the Mets get 75% the average households per game that the New York Knicks get. The Yankees get about as much as the Knicks and Nets got combined last year. That's despite playing day games, playing more 10 pm starts on the West Coast, playing 162 games versus 82 so nobody feels too bad about missing a game.

As for your second point, baseball has a 50 year-plus track record of converting people to being fans when they get older. The NBA's got a 30 year plus record of losing fans as they get older. All those 20 year olds in the 60s who thought pro football was cooler are now those Medicare-loving baseball fans, all the 15 year olds who had Bird and Magic posters on their walls are the middle-aged white guys who hate the NBA.

If you don't want philosophizing about God, your father and your place in history, fine. Baseball's still the most affordable, convenient sport going that allows you to sit outside in good weather in the day time and drink in your seat without missing a quarter due to lines. You can take your kids to it, and you can get there without a car in most cities.

Little League registration is dropping, but most kids still try baseball at some point, and dropping baseball doesn't preclude getting interested in it again. I chose rugby because I was better at it, I now barely watch rugby, watch tons of baseball and play softball a couple times a week.

Speaking of softball, that's still a behemoth in girls sports, and in my experience a lot of softball players enjoy watching baseball. So baseball's fanbase becomes more female-oriented...that's not a bad thing. Seems accurate to me too, when I go to a Giants game there are a ton more women in the stadium than when I've ever been to a football game and certainly at a soccer game in the UK.

So, to recount:

1) Baseball's revenue has skyrocketed compared to other sports.

2) Local TV ratings are really strong, much stronger than the NBA's.

3) Baseball has a track record of converting older people to fans. For emotional, historical...AND practical reasons.

4) The "kids hate baseball" talking point is vastly overplayed...and doesn't mean they won't become baseball fans later anyway.

The game is strong, my friends.
people don't even watch TV as is, ratings are down for everything. Networks are being killed by cable. This generation and generation x is gone. Do you care about NHL local ratings? I don't, so why should we about baseball, it says that mass appeal is now limited.

I will agree about the women. A lot of chicks hate football because it takes the whole day and the fans can just be awful sometimes.

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05-31-2013, 01:28 PM
  #111
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people don't even watch TV as is, ratings are down for everything. Networks are being killed by cable. This generation and generation x is gone. Do you care about NHL local ratings? I don't, so why should we about baseball, it says that mass appeal is now limited.

I will agree about the women. A lot of chicks hate football because it takes the whole day and the fans can just be awful sometimes.
Then nobody should ever mention national TV ratings, because in an age when all of your team's games are on TV you can just check out when your team's season is over. As a lot of people do. It's sad the World Series isn't the occasion it used to be (I've got a cool book of front pages when Game 1 of the World Series would be on the front page of every newspaper in the country - on the front of the NY Daily News even when it was the Cardinals and Tigers), but we've traded the pageantry of October for absolutely gorging ourselves on baseball from April to September 31st. And judging by the numbers most people seem to prefer it.

The one exception is the NFL, but it's once a week on a Sunday afternoon when it's cold outside. And the game looks great on TV.

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05-31-2013, 02:58 PM
  #112
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I blame Donald Fehr.

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05-31-2013, 03:23 PM
  #113
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baseball ratings and revenue are artificially inflated by the lack of competition, which is why the ratings in spring and fall continue to deflate.

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05-31-2013, 03:35 PM
  #114
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Growing revenues is the stupidest argument otherwise intelligent people trot out on this board all the time. .
You don't understand the #s you are talking about.

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05-31-2013, 03:39 PM
  #115
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oh, no, I do (admittedly, I wasn't aware of the NBA's slight edge over MLB before MLB's new TV deal)... I just see it trotted out all the time "look at how much NHL revenues have grown since 1993! Bettman rox!"... point me to the sports league whose revenues have shrunk since 1993. They've all grown, not just here but across the planet. Massive, massive growth.

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05-31-2013, 03:42 PM
  #116
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I think MLB has noticed and is now trying to grow the game elsewhere. There are now German players in the MLB and MiLB for example, and baseball registration to local clubs matches hockey registration now.

The sport of baseball will be perfectly fine in the future.

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05-31-2013, 08:31 PM
  #117
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Then nobody should ever mention national TV ratings, because in an age when all of your team's games are on TV you can just check out when your team's season is over. As a lot of people do. It's sad the World Series isn't the occasion it used to be (I've got a cool book of front pages when Game 1 of the World Series would be on the front page of every newspaper in the country - on the front of the NY Daily News even when it was the Cardinals and Tigers), but we've traded the pageantry of October for absolutely gorging ourselves on baseball from April to September 31st. And judging by the numbers most people seem to prefer it.

The one exception is the NFL, but it's once a week on a Sunday afternoon when it's cold outside. And the game looks great on TV.
Fair enough. I was not aware the NBA was 2 in 1996, that's awesome to find. The world series is not a big a deal but it is so late now, I think that's the problem

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I blame Donald Fehr.
Not his fault the stats show people are only interested in watching NYC, Chicago, LA , etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brodie View Post
baseball ratings and revenue are artificially inflated by the lack of competition, which is why the ratings in spring and fall continue to deflate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brodie View Post
oh, no, I do (admittedly, I wasn't aware of the NBA's slight edge over MLB before MLB's new TV deal)... I just see it trotted out all the time "look at how much NHL revenues have grown since 1993! Bettman rox!"... point me to the sports league whose revenues have shrunk since 1993. They've all grown, not just here but across the planet. Massive, massive growth.
Agreed. Same thing in a different vein with the NHL.

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06-01-2013, 08:38 PM
  #118
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I'm pretty sure the beating continues tonight as Heat-Pacers and Pens-Bruins are on.

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06-03-2013, 02:05 PM
  #119
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MLB, like the NBA and NHL, has become a regionalized sport. It's not going to do big numbers on a national stage, at least not in a regular season weekend game in May.
1) This is not true.
MLB is not a localizied sport like the NHL or NBA.
In the NHL and NBA, the fanbases usually are just within the immediate metro area.
Example would be Blackhawks. I don't think there are many avid Hawks fans in Ds Moines, Indianapolis, or Peroia. However, for MLB they definitely have a hardcore following.

2) The NBA is similar, but the NBA has many casual fans. In the NHL, if you don't live in the immediate area, you probably don't care about hockey. In the NBA, you probably don't root for the nearest team 2+ hours away but you watch NCAA and NBA as a casual fan.

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06-03-2013, 02:11 PM
  #120
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Here's my personal take

I am nearly 30.
A decade ago I was hardcore baseball. I loved hockey, and football, so I kind have all three as equal.
Now?
Hockey 1, Football 1A, Baseball 2.

I'm getting more and more tuned off by baseball, and it's not because the Yankees aren't as good.
Part of is the game is boring and different.
A hockey game, a football, you pay more closer attention, it captures you.
A regular season baseball game, and even playoff games, they move too slow.
You can flip in and out.

A big thing for me though is that baseball attracts way too many geeks. Sorry, I love stats, but in baseball it really is like a star wars convention+AARP. I get really turned off when I hear constant talk about things like "back in my day."
Or when people make big deals about April and early season games.
It is everyday and it just gets to be like...what's the big deal.

With football, having a week off is great, it makes you want more.
In baseball, between the geeks, the old farts talking about how great it was back and the day, and the over-analysis of a May game, it's like get real man.


Anybody else feel this way?
To me, baseball is great once hockey is over, and really in the fall, if my team is playing.
If my team is out, hard to get too excited about 4 hour games.


This is hardly something new, the NBA finals outrate the World Series already. If baseball wants to apply to our younger generations, then they need to naturally (not artifically) move away from being the "past time" and about entertainment.
Less CSPAN and History Channel please.


On note I will say baseball is good at, in all seriousness, is that if you need to take a nap, or really zonk out, keep a baseball game on a good hour.
If you need to do some light work or read the paper, again baseball is a great companion for this.

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06-03-2013, 03:01 PM
  #121
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People complain about how forever poorly ran franchises like the Royals and Pirates don't make the playoffs. Meanwhile, well run low budget teams like the Rays and A's contend quite often.

If your team sucks, it because it's ran like garbage, not because baseball lacks parity.
If your idea of "contend" is to squeak into the playoffs and then maybe win a round before being eliminated then I think baseball is the perfect sport for you.

Baseball most certainly does lack parity. The huge disparity in average player salaries on different teams is a dead giveaway. The teams you posted are exceptions to the norm.

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06-03-2013, 04:36 PM
  #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HabsByTheBay View Post
NBA revenue in 1996: $2.3 bn.
MLB revenue in 1996: $1.78 bn.

NBA revenue in 2012-13: $~5 bn.
MLB revenue in 2013: $~8bn.

David Stern, Mr. Awesome Commissioner, undisputed leader of the most likely candidate by almost universal agreement to displace the national pastime, got his rear end handed to him on a dirty, bent tray by ....Bud Selig.

So not only did MLB beat inflation (by something like eight times inflation) it kicked the ****ing crap out of the NBA.

Swift and startling my ass. The NBA gets people to watch 7 games, MLB gets people to watch 162. For God's sake, the Mets get 75% the average households per game that the New York Knicks get. The Yankees get about as much as the Knicks and Nets got combined last year. That's despite playing day games, playing more 10 pm starts on the West Coast, playing 162 games versus 82 so nobody feels too bad about missing a game.

As for your second point, baseball has a 50 year-plus track record of converting people to being fans when they get older. The NBA's got a 30 year plus record of losing fans as they get older. All those 20 year olds in the 60s who thought pro football was cooler are now those Medicare-loving baseball fans, all the 15 year olds who had Bird and Magic posters on their walls are the middle-aged white guys who hate the NBA.

If you don't want philosophizing about God, your father and your place in history, fine. Baseball's still the most affordable, convenient sport going that allows you to sit outside in good weather in the day time and drink in your seat without missing a quarter due to lines. You can take your kids to it, and you can get there without a car in most cities.

Little League registration is dropping, but most kids still try baseball at some point, and dropping baseball doesn't preclude getting interested in it again. I chose rugby because I was better at it, I now barely watch rugby, watch tons of baseball and play softball a couple times a week.

Speaking of softball, that's still a behemoth in girls sports, and in my experience a lot of softball players enjoy watching baseball. So baseball's fanbase becomes more female-oriented...that's not a bad thing. Seems accurate to me too, when I go to a Giants game there are a ton more women in the stadium than when I've ever been to a football game and certainly at a soccer game in the UK.

So, to recount:

1) Baseball's revenue has skyrocketed compared to other sports.

2) Local TV ratings are really strong, much stronger than the NBA's.

3) Baseball has a track record of converting older people to fans. For emotional, historical...AND practical reasons.

4) The "kids hate baseball" talking point is vastly overplayed...and doesn't mean they won't become baseball fans later anyway.

The game is strong, my friends.
Kids don't hate Baseball but they play a lot more Soccer nowadays.

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06-03-2013, 04:39 PM
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Everyone plays soccer when they're little? Why? Because it costs a ball.

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06-03-2013, 04:43 PM
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Kimota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdmiralsFan24 View Post
Everyone plays soccer when they're little? Why? Because it costs a ball.
And it's faster and there's less rules. For example, when I was a kid I played Baseball but I was a right fielder and I was bored by it cause there was a lot of waiting. Then I started to play Soccer, there was many chances to score goals and you're always in movement.

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06-03-2013, 04:52 PM
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True, you don't need to enforce offsides in soccer when there are 5-9 year olds playing. I played both but I always liked baseball better but it's expensive to play.

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