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The Carey Price Discussion Thread (Part 5)

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Old
05-30-2013, 09:37 AM
  #301
Kriss E
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Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
This thread was greatness. Only small group of us were complaining about the contract and his inconsistent play. He followed that up by having a weak regular season and terrible post season.

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...501&highlight=

"but but but the cap is going to go up...this is a great deal!"

LOL
Whether or not he had earned his contract was irrelevant.
It's pretty easy to sit behind a cpu screen, look at stats and salaries throughout the league, and come up with the conclusion that he hasn't quite earned those top dollars yet. Some may disagree, but really it's all irrelevant.

The reality was:

1- We had no goalie within our organization that could take over.
2- We still don't even have one today.
3- He was identified as the franchise player.
4- Whether you agree or not, if we believe what insiders share, he's viewed as one of the best goalies in the game.
5- A rookie GM was not going to move him. Not. Happening.

So, if you combine all of this, it really isn't all that surprising he got a big contract.
I also think people put way too much emphasis on what being overpaid really is, and judge way too soon. Guy has played 40 games under this new deal.

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05-30-2013, 09:31 PM
  #302
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Originally Posted by chaosrevolver View Post
No he wasn't. Not consistently at least.

I'm one of PK's biggest fans being from Belleville where I had the pleasure of watching him play for his entire junior career with my season tickets. However, he was not a top-5 defender last year. Frankly, he wasn't even close. Top-30 or so I'd agree with but considering how poor his start to the season was and the lack of production throughout the year, no one can really say he was top-5. Those who are elite produce and are effective with the advanced statistics (see 2013 Subban).

He definitely deserved 3.5-4.5 based on his play and probably 4.5-5 on his likely growth at the time, but he was not an elite top-5 defender that deserves 6.5+ like he is now.
By any metric other than points, PK was already one of the best in the league. He lit it up this year on the powerplay, his EV strength contributions were unchanged for the most part. His puck possession and way he drove play to the opposite end of the ice has basically remained unchanged. In fact, in many ways he had better statistical numbers defensively last year as he was used in all the toughest situations and excelled in every aspect.

Points cloud peoples judgment, Subban was elite long before this year. It just took some a little extra longer to realize it.

Funny you mention his advance statistics. He was elite in 2012 as well.

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05-30-2013, 09:38 PM
  #303
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Originally Posted by GoHomez View Post
Bergevin didn't sign Price.
Subban got the same 2 year "bridge contract" Price did with a little more money.
Might want to check your facts.

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05-30-2013, 09:56 PM
  #304
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Originally Posted by dmanfish90 View Post
Defense is comprised of more than hits, but hits do play a small part (1/10).

FYI, I believe Giveaways aren't actually a "defensive" stat as to get a giveaway you need possession of the puck (hence you are technically on offense) and then have it lost by a player on the other team "taking it away" from you. I still do believe they are both equally as important statistics, but for defensive sakes, Takeaways is the one to use because it is an actual defensive stat, hence why it was used by the author of that article i posted above.

Show me a link to defensive zone faceoff % and more than gladly use them. For now, totals will have to do. Might skew things, but I highly doubt it. More likely they even each other out and you get a general picture about how likely a team is to win a faceoff at any faceoff dot on the ice. I think that's the key thing here.

How are Goals Against per Game, Shots Against per Game, Hits, Blocked Shots, Takeaway, and Faceoff % arbitrary? Okay maybe the last one but the first 5 statistical categories are all defensive categories. Do you disagree with this statement?

Now you're using injuries as excuses. I provide statistics in coming off with a somewhat logical conclusion on how well defensively a certain team or teams has/have played and your response is "oh well LA just won a cup and all cup teams are usually rusty the year after to start and Quick had back surgery that he's still recovering from" which is all true and fine and dandy. But the way I see it, excuses. In fact, how do you end up 5th place in the standings and use that as an excuse for how well you played in any respect, offensively/defensively/whatever. Now with their playoff performance, can you still use those above excuses?

The "ranking" system isn't a joke as mentioned below in this post.



He played 22 AHL playoff games that year, won 15 of them.

I remember that game very well as i watched it live. I remember Toews scoring like 3 times in a row after the first 3 players shot. Price was letting in every shot on their repeat scorer Mueller I believe. Eventually he stopped enough for them to win and move onto the Gold Medal Game.



Pogge has never won the Calder Cup, let alone in the same year he won the World Juniors, was the World Juniors Goalie of the Tournament (ahead of Tuukka Rask), Tournament MVP, Jack A. Butterfield Trophy as the AHL Playoffs MVP.

Yes we have high expectations, hence why everyone says he should be better. But people make it seem like this means nothing. It doesn't mean more than winning a cup and a conn smythe, but before last season, Price's accomplishments trumped Quick's. Now, the opposite.



If that is the case then why is PO hockey very hard hitting and the games are extremely close? I might be making a stretch but I feel like they complement each other...

Takeaways are not meaningless. What do u mean by "no standard set between rinks to even count them"? They are counted, and are on the NHL.com website. Thank you for illustrating my point. As I believe takeaways are a minorly important defensive stat, you make the argument that the team with the puck more often (like we did for most games this season) will have less opportunities to take the puck off the other team because the other team doesn't have the puck as much as them. So when people mention "we had the 5th fewest shots on goal this year, we controlled the play, etc" it has very little to do with how we played defensively and almost everything to do with how we played offensively.

I might "grasp" but this logic of "we had the fewest shots on goal in the league" deal and that's why we're such a great defensive team might work for most teams like, say LOS ANGELES who were consistently for the past 5 years a team that allowed the 6th fewest shots allowed/game or lower in the NHL. But for a team like Montreal who I think has cracked the top 10 in SA/G over the past 5 seasons maybe once, it doesn't.



Top Dman in the league does not have the most giveaways because as you said "they have the puck the most often". Talk about grasping. Out of the Norris finalists, only 1 was in the Top 10 in Giveaways this year (Subban) only 2 in the top 30 (Subban, Letang was 27th), but nice try...if you're going to rationalize that Subban is in the top 10, well let's just say that he probably has to grow his skills still (being the youngest of all 3 and especially defensively) and he likes to handle the puck much more than Letang and Suter, don't you think?

What it means is that teams spent probably much less time in our zone than years past and that we gave up less shots on net and less shots directed at the net. Now is this a correlation that the team was better defensively? Possibly, but it could also show that the team was also MUCH MUCH BETTER at maintaining possession and keeping the puck in the O-Zone (something I saw game after game). What I didn't see during our regular season and playoff games is our defense consistently playing well defensively.

My understanding of statistics might be mind-boggling to you. Explain to me how this year with our defensive prowess manage to only be about .05 GA/G better this year than 2010-11 where Price was absolutely "incredible". Also, our G/G was almost .5 G/G better this season than it was 2 years ago. Another interesting statistic.

Explain that to me Mr. Statistics Genius.



LOL and GMs have crystal balls that can see the future. This is one of the funniest things i've ever read.



Means nothing? So then Lundqvist's stats the past 5 years mean nothing too, never been past the 2nd round is a failure, etc.

Jesus ****ing Price people, enough with the hyperbolic statements. Of course it doesn't mean more than winning a SC/winning a Conn Smythe, but it doesn't mean nothing either.



Halak didn't just give our team a chance, HE STOLE GAMES FOR US. Quick might steal a game or two in the POs, but in only 2 rounds, Halak probably "stole" half of them (7 games). Quick gives his team a chance to win by coming up with timely saves. Our team has been average for years and one year our goalie stood on his head and took us to the ECF. Everyone knows this and says this, including other fans.

FYI in 2010-11 Price gave our team many chances in many games to win (hence the 3 OT games in that 7 game series against the eventual SC Champions) and how do some players reward him, by shooting at TT's pads on a 2 on 1 (Gionta). This year we had no hope whatsoever. Price played well Game 2 and Game 4 and the team in front of him lets him down in Game 3 and 4.

GP has nothing to do with it. Who's in front of him does. Sooner most of you realize this, the better.



He should have been better, but I think he wanted to live the celeb life in Montreal and not focus about winning a SC. That's my opinion, although after trading Halak and proving himself to be a very good goaltender he showed the world what he could do, and then last year with the team's ****storm still had average stats and this year playing well the first 2 months of the season before bed crapping by almost everyone. He needs to elevate his game above regular mode and go into Quick mode.



Cap hit comparables:

Cam Ward: 6.3 million
Ryan Miller: 6.25 million
Pekka Rinne: 7 million
Henrik Lundqvist: 6.875 million

The only thing that he doesn't have that these goalies have is SC (Ward, playing lights out in 06 after coming in for Gerber and Koivu goes down with that eye injury from Williams stick), Vezina Trophy (Miller, Lundqvist) and Vezina Trophy Finalist (Rinne). Price will get all of the above eventually and hopefully it will be while he's still the #1 for Le CH. But despite this, is he a bit overpaid due to his last season's performance? No doubt. Is he overpaid since taking over the #1 from Jaro Halak? Maybe a little but it's an argument to say the least.
You have no idea what you're talking about. Puck possession is defense. If you have the puck for the majority of the time, you don't need to play defense during those times. You're lost. None of those statistics have any bearing on overall defense at all. Your idea that controlling the play and dictating the tempo of a hockey game makes you bad defensively is misguided. Being strong defensively doesn't just mean getting pinned in your own zone and blocking shots. Strong defensive teams are the teams that control possession. I'm not sure why you're even arguing against it. Sometimes the best defense is a good offense. Some say Hal Gill was good defensively, and I suppose he was if you think being pinned in your own zone during every shift is a good thing.

As far as giveaway/takeaways, there is no league wide standard of how those statistics are counted. Take a look at home/away records for these completely useless stats. They're all over the place. Every year, the best players in the league lead in giveaways. Every year since the useless stat has been recorded.

Then you ramble on about the shots and puck-possession of previous years like this is somehow relevant to this year. We were talking about the 2012-2013 season, no? The habs roster was completely different from previous years. One of the driving forces behind our puck possession is the General, Andrei Markov, our record with/without him is astonishing, why, he drives up puck possession with his elite first pass. We added two solid rookies that contributed enormously, one a calder finalist and one just outside. Then Diaz/Yemelin had a year under their belt, boullion was added, prust was added, Armstrong was added. The team was completely different. You're stuck in the wrong season.

The reason our GA against was 14th this year is because our franchise goalie **** the freaking bed, that's why. For 10 games he couldn't stop a beach ball. For 40% of the games his SV% was under .900. Nothing special about him this year, he cost us more games than he won us.


Last edited by habsfanatics: 05-30-2013 at 10:03 PM.
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Old
05-30-2013, 10:15 PM
  #305
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Originally Posted by dmanfish90 View Post
Price played just as well before this contract as PK has before this contract. Difference is now is that PK played like a Top 3 or Top 5 defenseman and Price did the exact opposite.

PK before this year was never a consistent elite defenseman game in and game out. I remember one year, JM benched him for multiple games and at 1 point, multiple games consecutively because he was turning over the puck all too often and making plays he shouldn't be making.
I'm done arguing with you.

One last point:

Shot/differential is bigger indicator of team play than goal/differential. Shot/differential helps define the process that led to the goal. A goal is just a goal, it tells you very little about how the team is playing. I know it's hard to fathom, but it's true. Shots can ricochet off a number of bodies and luck their way in the net, in fact now, more than ever, most goals are scored this way, luck/random variation are huge in this game. They level out eventually, but over the short term not so much. When you're outshooting your opponents consistently every game it's a much better predictor of future success. You may not get those pinball bounces over a stretch, but eventually you will.

Have a good night.

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1425805

If you want to do some reading, this link is a really good discussion on the negative correlation between blocked shots and winning.

The LA KINGS we dead last in blocked shots last year. Their puck possession was so good shots weren't going at their net. This is what I have been telling you all along, but you continue to ignore it for some unknown reason.


Last edited by habsfanatics: 05-30-2013 at 10:31 PM.
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Old
05-30-2013, 11:01 PM
  #306
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Whether or not he had earned his contract was irrelevant.
It's pretty easy to sit behind a cpu screen, look at stats and salaries throughout the league, and come up with the conclusion that he hasn't quite earned those top dollars yet. Some may disagree, but really it's all irrelevant.

The reality was:

1- We had no goalie within our organization that could take over.
2- We still don't even have one today.
3- He was identified as the franchise player.
4- Whether you agree or not, if we believe what insiders share, he's viewed as one of the best goalies in the game.
5- A rookie GM was not going to move him. Not. Happening.

So, if you combine all of this, it really isn't all that surprising he got a big contract.
I also think people put way too much emphasis on what being overpaid really is, and judge way too soon. Guy has played 40 games under this new deal.
Sorry, none of this validates that contract.

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05-30-2013, 11:55 PM
  #307
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Quote:
Originally Posted by habsfanatics View Post
You have no idea what you're talking about. Puck possession is defense. If you have the puck for the majority of the time, you don't need to play defense during those times. You're lost. None of those statistics have any bearing on overall defense at all. Your idea that controlling the play and dictating the tempo of a hockey game makes you bad defensively is misguided. Being strong defensively doesn't just mean getting pinned in your own zone and blocking shots. Strong defensive teams are the teams that control possession. I'm not sure why you're even arguing against it. Sometimes the best defense is a good offense. Some say Hal Gill was good defensively, and I suppose he was if you think being pinned in your own zone during every shift is a good thing.

As far as giveaway/takeaways, there is no league wide standard of how those statistics are counted. Take a look at home/away records for these completely useless stats. They're all over the place. Every year, the best players in the league lead in giveaways. Every year since the useless stat has been recorded.

Then you ramble on about the shots and puck-possession of previous years like this is somehow relevant to this year. We were talking about the 2012-2013 season, no? The habs roster was completely different from previous years. One of the driving forces behind our puck possession is the General, Andrei Markov, our record with/without him is astonishing, why, he drives up puck possession with his elite first pass. We added two solid rookies that contributed enormously, one a calder finalist and one just outside. Then Diaz/Yemelin had a year under their belt, boullion was added, prust was added, Armstrong was added. The team was completely different. You're stuck in the wrong season.

The reason our GA against was 14th this year is because our franchise goalie **** the freaking bed, that's why. For 10 games he couldn't stop a beach ball. For 40% of the games his SV% was under .900. Nothing special about him this year, he cost us more games than he won us.
You're probably right. At first I had pondered that too. If you had the puck more often than your opponent, then I guess you could infer that you're limiting the other team's opportunity in your zone to create scoring opportunities, shots on goal, goals against, etc. I guess my head just rationalized it as "well that should be a good sign that the offense can keep possession more" but it can be both this and that "well the defense can poke the puck off their opponents, stick check, small hit to make them misfire a pass/misplay the puck". I guess that's where I should have realized why it did make sense in the first place that strong possession means good defense as well.

Originally I had thought just because you control the tempo of the game and have more of the possession of the puck, it doesn't mean that you can be great defensively, but that you limit the opponents' teams scoring chances. Maybe that's part of good defense? Seems weird to me but i guess it fits.

I have no clue what you mean in paragraph 2.

The core is essentially the same. I think the biggest difference like you said above is Markov playing every game this season and not being out of the lineup. Adding Prust, Bouillon, Armstrong is great fun and all, but the majority of the team was the same from last year. Emelin and Diaz had a year of experience under their belt, but essentially it's the same team, not different like you claim.

Quote:
Originally Posted by habsfanatics View Post
I'm done arguing with you.

One last point:

Shot/differential is bigger indicator of team play than goal/differential. Shot/differential helps define the process that led to the goal. A goal is just a goal, it tells you very little about how the team is playing. I know it's hard to fathom, but it's true. Shots can ricochet off a number of bodies and luck their way in the net, in fact now, more than ever, most goals are scored this way, luck/random variation are huge in this game. They level out eventually, but over the short term not so much. When you're outshooting your opponents consistently every game it's a much better predictor of future success. You may not get those pinball bounces over a stretch, but eventually you will.

Have a good night.

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1425805

If you want to do some reading, this link is a really good discussion on the negative correlation between blocked shots and winning.

The LA KINGS we dead last in blocked shots last year. Their puck possession was so good shots weren't going at their net. This is what I have been telling you all along, but you continue to ignore it for some unknown reason.
I read the thread. Very informative and great analysis.

Cheers habsfanatics

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Old
05-31-2013, 01:50 AM
  #308
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Might want to check your facts.
See post 293

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05-31-2013, 11:48 AM
  #309
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Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
Sorry, none of this validates that contract.
I believe it does. Our lack of vision made Price having the advantage over us. Pretty strange considering the fact that even with Theodore, we thought we had to pick a goalie with our #5 but then since Price came in...it's all in and no need to do anything in that department. I know I keep signing that song, but in the meantime, Boston has Rask....Khudobin....Svedberg......Subban. Anaheim has Fasth, Hiller, Gibson and Andersen. We are such in great shape that we can't let Robert Mayer go....

Price was told he was worth that money. He was told when he was picked #5. Was told when we traded Huet for a pick. Was told when we traded THE fan favorite away...He was continously told....well he believed it.

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05-31-2013, 12:16 PM
  #310
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
I believe it does. Our lack of vision made Price having the advantage over us. Pretty strange considering the fact that even with Theodore, we thought we had to pick a goalie with our #5 but then since Price came in...it's all in and no need to do anything in that department. I know I keep signing that song, but in the meantime, Boston has Rask....Khudobin....Svedberg......Subban. Anaheim has Fasth, Hiller, Gibson and Andersen. We are such in great shape that we can't let Robert Mayer go....

Price was told he was worth that money. He was told when he was picked #5. Was told when we traded Huet for a pick. Was told when we traded THE fan favorite away...He was continously told....well he believed it.
I recall making a very similar post about the time Price was in contract negotiations, I might have used the term "painted into a corner" and it was not popular here.

In all my years of watching the Habs they have always had depth and quality at the goaltending position. Now, it's questionable if the team has either and the deterioriation started with what I can only guess was Gainey's misread of a brief period which Glen Healy called "6 absolutely great months in junior hockey".

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05-31-2013, 01:37 PM
  #311
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
I believe it does. Our lack of vision made Price having the advantage over us. Pretty strange considering the fact that even with Theodore, we thought we had to pick a goalie with our #5 but then since Price came in...it's all in and no need to do anything in that department. I know I keep signing that song, but in the meantime, Boston has Rask....Khudobin....Svedberg......Subban. Anaheim has Fasth, Hiller, Gibson and Andersen. We are such in great shape that we can't let Robert Mayer go....

Price was told he was worth that money. He was told when he was picked #5. Was told when we traded Huet for a pick. Was told when we traded THE fan favorite away...He was continously told....well he believed it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
I recall making a very similar post about the time Price was in contract negotiations, I might have used the term "painted into a corner" and it was not popular here.

In all my years of watching the Habs they have always had depth and quality at the goaltending position. Now, it's questionable if the team has either and the deterioriation started with what I can only guess was Gainey's misread of a brief period which Glen Healy called "6 absolutely great months in junior hockey".
You guys make very excellent points. WhiteSnake, it seems to me that BG and PG kept feeding to everyone and Price over the years that he was the franchise goaltender and the future of the team. Idk if they ever said the next St. Patrick, but with the decisions that they made (listed in your post) they made it seem like he was undoubtedly the #1 Goaltender for Le CH for years to come. I honestly think he could be 1 bad season away from being traded. I know MB might say he has 150% in Carey Price, but it could be all smoke and mirrors for all we know, or it could not. The fact is he played very badly for the last month and a half or 2 months of the season and that's just not going to be acceptable going forward. He's beginning his "Prime" years next year and I wanna see Quick-level playoff performances during the playoffs at least (should we get there) or during the regular season should we not.

Agnostic, I've only really been following the team since say '03-04 and don't really remember us having such "depth" at goaltending. Maybe more quality or somethinig but with guys like Moog, Hackett, Theodore, Garon, Fiset, Thibault, etc. don't really scream "depth" to me. But I am going to refer to your judgement more on this one because you've most likely been following the team longer than me. If you're talking from '05 onwards when we had Theodore, Price, Danis, Huet, Aebischer, Auld, Budaj, Halak, and LOL Marc Denis, then yeah we were quite strong.


Last edited by dmanfish90: 05-31-2013 at 01:40 PM. Reason: editing for the sake of got editing back, feels good bro
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05-31-2013, 02:26 PM
  #312
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
I believe it does. Our lack of vision made Price having the advantage over us. Pretty strange considering the fact that even with Theodore, we thought we had to pick a goalie with our #5 but then since Price came in...it's all in and no need to do anything in that department. I know I keep signing that song, but in the meantime, Boston has Rask....Khudobin....Svedberg......Subban. Anaheim has Fasth, Hiller, Gibson and Andersen. We are such in great shape that we can't let Robert Mayer go....

Price was told he was worth that money. He was told when he was picked #5. Was told when we traded Huet for a pick. Was told when we traded THE fan favorite away...He was continously told....well he believed it.
I'm not sure the bolded part is really true. Don't forget they reduced the number of rounds in the draft after the 04 lockout. So we can't draft a Halak in the 9th round anymore. If you compare the seven pre/post Price drafts and exclude players taken after the 7th round then the difference is a couple of 6th round picks. Granted it's twice as many goalies selected but it's highly unlikely that grabbing a couple of goalies in the 6th round would have changed Price's situation.

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05-31-2013, 03:31 PM
  #313
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Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
Sorry, none of this validates that contract.
Again, that's based on what you feel his value is but it's irrelevant because performance wasn't really the determining factor in those negotiations.
The situation the team was in dictated the value of Price.
It's pretty simple and clear to see. Really, it's obvious. We literally had no choice.

Ya, it doesn't mean he deserves as much as Lundqvist, I was hoping for 4.5M cap, but all that is irrelevant when you have no other option.

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05-31-2013, 03:35 PM
  #314
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Regardless of what side you guys are on you are obsessed. Talking about the same thing over and over again. How is this fun for you?

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05-31-2013, 04:17 PM
  #315
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Regardless of what side you guys are on you are obsessed. Talking about the same thing over and over again. How is this fun for you?
Feeling like you were right in a discussion on the Internet is more important than anything in the world.

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05-31-2013, 04:19 PM
  #316
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Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
Sorry, none of this validates that contract.
At yet, absolutely nothing you have said unvalidates his contract either.

There isn't much reason, patience or foresight in this this thread, it's mostly panic and knee jerk reactions. Something that the previous management group was criticized for, by the very same people that are falling into that trap right here. Its actually quite entertaining.

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05-31-2013, 06:03 PM
  #317
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Originally Posted by dmanfish90 View Post
You're probably right. At first I had pondered that too. If you had the puck more often than your opponent, then I guess you could infer that you're limiting the other team's opportunity in your zone to create scoring opportunities, shots on goal, goals against, etc. I guess my head just rationalized it as "well that should be a good sign that the offense can keep possession more" but it can be both this and that "well the defense can poke the puck off their opponents, stick check, small hit to make them misfire a pass/misplay the puck". I guess that's where I should have realized why it did make sense in the first place that strong possession means good defense as well.

Originally I had thought just because you control the tempo of the game and have more of the possession of the puck, it doesn't mean that you can be great defensively, but that you limit the opponents' teams scoring chances. Maybe that's part of good defense? Seems weird to me but i guess it fits.

I have no clue what you mean in paragraph 2.

The core is essentially the same. I think the biggest difference like you said above is Markov playing every game this season and not being out of the lineup. Adding Prust, Bouillon, Armstrong is great fun and all, but the majority of the team was the same from last year. Emelin and Diaz had a year of experience under their belt, but essentially it's the same team, not different like you claim.



I read the thread. Very informative and great analysis.

Cheers habsfanatics
My second paragraph regarding takeaways/giveaways is that there is no established league wide standard of what actually constitutes a takeaway/giveaway, they are dependent on the rink as each are counted separately. Some teams giveaways/takeaways fluctuate drastically between their home games and road games, not because they're better or worse in any of those areas, but simply because they are accounted for differently. These numbers are inconsistent throughout the league and are anything but reliable. About the only thing you can take away from giveaways is that the individuals at the top of the league are most likely the best possession players as well. You can only be credited with a giveaway when the puck is on your stick. It's why you don't typically see poor 3rd and fourth liners leading in giveaways, because they seldom have the puck to give away in the first place.

Takeaways, not much better and pretty useless, the fact the article you linked ever made it to print is too bad. The has shown a complete lack of understanding for the statistics he used and to top it off he arbitrarily assigned percentages to things he clearly knows little about.

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05-31-2013, 06:04 PM
  #318
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Again, that's based on what you feel his value is but it's irrelevant because performance wasn't really the determining factor in those negotiations.
The situation the team was in dictated the value of Price.
It's pretty simple and clear to see. Really, it's obvious. We literally had no choice.

Ya, it doesn't mean he deserves as much as Lundqvist, I was hoping for 4.5M cap, but all that is irrelevant when you have no other option.
Of course we had choices, don't be ridiculous

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05-31-2013, 11:24 PM
  #319
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Of course we had choices, don't be ridiculous
I don't understand why people say we didn't have a choice. We had the choice to do with Price what we did with Subban. Could have went with another bridge deal with Price since he had not proven himself yet.

Anyway, I'll never understand why we gave both length and terms to an unproven guy. If we were giving 7 years, we should have gotten a discount on the cap hit. Instead we paid a premium. Mind boggling.

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06-01-2013, 12:42 AM
  #320
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I don't understand why people say we didn't have a choice. We had the choice to do with Price what we did with Subban. Could have went with another bridge deal with Price since he had not proven himself yet.

Anyway, I'll never understand why we gave both length and terms to an unproven guy. If we were giving 7 years, we should have gotten a discount on the cap hit. Instead we paid a premium. Mind boggling.
If there was anyone to bet the farm on, it was PK Subban. One could say we were backed into a corner during those talks too, but MB stubbornly stood pat and waited until PK caved. We'd be a hell of lot worse without him going forward.

The idea that Price was going to sit and wait to get those dollars is just not reality. His arbitration wouldn't have awarded him anything close to those dollars imo. He had the same choice as PK, sign and play or don't sign and don't play. Subban was a player on the rise who's been elite to borderline elite from day one. Price has been up and down, rotating good years with bad.

Anyone with any player evaluation skills at all knew PK was a stud. Most knew it on these boards too, although many screamed trade him, he's just being greedy ect ect. If Price had of held out everyone here would be yelling for us to pay him his money. Odd crowd sometimes.

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06-01-2013, 01:03 AM
  #321
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Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
I don't understand why people say we didn't have a choice. We had the choice to do with Price what we did with Subban. Could have went with another bridge deal with Price since he had not proven himself yet.

Anyway, I'll never understand why we gave both length and terms to an unproven guy. If we were giving 7 years, we should have gotten a discount on the cap hit. Instead we paid a premium. Mind boggling.
I thought the whole point of developing players was so you didn't have to pay the UFA premium, yet with Price and almost certainly Subban we'll end up paying top dollar. I guess Bergevin didn't get the memo but in 2 or 3 years from now he'll figure it out. Gonna be a long, hard road for our GM, I think.

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06-02-2013, 01:49 PM
  #322
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Feeling like you were right in a discussion on the Internet is more important than anything in the world.
welcome to hf boards!!!

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06-02-2013, 02:42 PM
  #323
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Sorry, none of this validates that contract.
Bottom line there. Price has shown flashes of it; he was great the 2 years before this one and can't argue with his play in that series against the Bruins to the best of my recollection where he pretty much went toe to toe with Thomas. The issue for me wasn't that at the time of the signing he was a quality goalie...it's why he was given the money he was given. Something in line with what Quick got would have been more than enough.

But to get back to the original point, Price in the first year of the contract= fail. I still think he has the ability, but next year will be a huge year in his career. He can't be what he was this year..he can't even be just good at that cap hit.

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06-02-2013, 03:17 PM
  #324
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I'm not sure the bolded part is really true. Don't forget they reduced the number of rounds in the draft after the 04 lockout. So we can't draft a Halak in the 9th round anymore. If you compare the seven pre/post Price drafts and exclude players taken after the 7th round then the difference is a couple of 6th round picks. Granted it's twice as many goalies selected but it's highly unlikely that grabbing a couple of goalies in the 6th round would have changed Price's situation.
They drafted Simila and Missiaen post-Price. Not good picks but they did. You don't need only the 9th rounder to get goaltending. We could have done it in the 3rd, 4th or any other round. Not sure why goaltending should be reserved to the 9th. Mind you, I am mostly against 1st round for goaltending...but 2nd and beyond is fine with me.

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06-02-2013, 04:37 PM
  #325
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Originally Posted by habsfanatics View Post
Of course we had choices, don't be ridiculous
We did? Please elaborate.
We had Budaj, that's it. So what else?
Trading him was not going to happen, so scratch that one out.
So what else? Sign an UFA goalie that isn't even close to being as good as Price? And then what? What's the point of that? That would be a really dumb move, so scratch that.
So what are these other choices we had?

Really, when you deeply think it through, there wasn't any respectable choice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
I don't understand why people say we didn't have a choice. We had the choice to do with Price what we did with Subban. Could have went with another bridge deal with Price since he had not proven himself yet.

Anyway, I'll never understand why we gave both length and terms to an unproven guy. If we were giving 7 years, we should have gotten a discount on the cap hit. Instead we paid a premium. Mind boggling.
You don't understand? It's pretty simple. Our only other option was Budaj.

We could not have held out Price, he would have been eligible for arbitration. Perhaps that's a route you would have preferred, but with no goalies in our ranks, I don't see how management would have gone there.
I was hoping for a deal around 4.5M, but there are two sides that negotiate and when one has you by the balls, the contract reflects the situation.
Price camp had all the power, that's why he got this huge deal.
Bergevin camp had all the power vs PK, that's why PK got such a tiny deal even his critics were surprised by.

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