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Reforming Elitserien into the Swedish Hockey League

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05-21-2013, 05:15 PM
  #26
Darth Yoda
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Originally Posted by Dosing View Post
Kids in those clubs still grow up with the thought back in the head that they can take their hometown to elitserien. Take that away and you got a bunch of smalltown kids jumping ships making the clubs even worse and so the overall quality falls and hockey is gone in all smaller towns and the sport becomes even less popular then it is now. And thats just the player aspect, i doubt the clubs will be very happy being told that they are always gonna be stuck playing div4 against olofstrom ik. And no, it working in america does not equal it working here lol.
What are you talking about? The top talents on the lowly Allsvenskan teams jumps ship to the Elitserien first chance they get to be regulars there. These teams will never, or almost never in some cases, get up to the big show. Let the never will be's compete in a league with teams they actually have the economic means to beat on a regular basis. Let many of their aforemost young fans strengthen the fanbases of the real teams. I'm not nessessarily saying that it's the best for these teams staff count, but it certainly gives bigger market teams in the locked league more stability to get better internationally speaking through not the least TV-revenues and number of fans. Why would my priority be to make it better for small senior teams on the cost of the top leagues? You probably just happen to be a fan of one of those leech teams. Let their fans take pride in their junior programs instead, let them go watch them to a higher degree like in North America. Besides, the AHL has some decent to great attendeances as well.


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05-21-2013, 05:30 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Rutkowski View Post
Ah yes because Swedish hockey, which last I checked were ranked internationally behind both the SM-Liiga and the Czech Extraliga, is doing so fine.

Besides, since we've never had these "superteams" shoot up to the SEL and dominate there immediatly I think that situation is a wee bit unrealistic. And, as I've repeated numerous times but it have for some reason been ignored, if the league feel a team need to be replaced(instead of the US relocated), it may do so. If the league feel an expansion is due, it may do so.

Do I have to draw it out in paint or did everyone catch it this time?
Actually swedish hockey is doing fine especially after the "reform" so to speak.
And with the superteam example it was the idea behind it that counted, not how many teams you can list.
Also im sorry but "if the league feel like it, they can replace" just doesn't cut it. Either it's a closed league or it isn't.

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05-21-2013, 05:43 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
What are you talking about? The top talents on the lowly Allsvenskan teams jumps ship to the Elitserien first chance they get to be regulars there. These teams will never, or almost never in some cases, get up to the big show. Let the never will be's compete in a league with teams they actually have the economic means to beat on a regular basis. Let many of their aforemost young fans strengthen the fanbases of the real teams. I'm not nessessarily saying that it's the best for these teams staff count, but it certainly gives bigger market teams in the locked league more stability to get better internationally speaking through not the least TV-revenues and number of fans. Why would my priority be to make it better for small senior teams on the cost of the top leagues? You probably just happen to be a fan of one of those leech teams. Let their fans take pride in their junior programs instead, let them go watch them to a higher degree like in North America. Besides, the AHL has some decent to great attendeances as well.
The junior programs suffering was the point, bigger motivation makes for more effort into development. Your even swedish anyways? Because you should know people wont just "strengthen the fanbases of real teams" aka teams in other towns. You create depth by having a solid foundation you dont feed the big teams and **** on the little ones especially in such a small sport. And your still doing the misstake of comparing swedish and american mentality. In america they might nicely attend ahl games or anything else that is put infront of them but we are a little more skeptical to outside influence(to put it mildly)

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05-21-2013, 06:15 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
What are you talking about? The top talents on the lowly Allsvenskan teams jumps ship to the Elitserien first chance they get to be regulars there. These teams will never, or almost never in some cases, get up to the big show. Let the never will be's compete in a league with teams they actually have the economic means to beat on a regular basis. Let many of their aforemost young fans strengthen the fanbases of the real teams. I'm not nessessarily saying that it's the best for these teams staff count, but it certainly gives bigger market teams in the locked league more stability to get better internationally speaking through not the least TV-revenues and number of fans. Why would my priority be to make it better for small senior teams on the cost of the top leagues? You probably just happen to be a fan of one of those leech teams. Let their fans take pride in their junior programs instead, let them go watch them to a higher degree like in North America. Besides, the AHL has some decent to great attendeances as well.
I've watched my team go from playing against teams like Danderyd/Täby to now become Swedish Champions. If I were to deny others that possibility just because I want security for my own team, I'd be a complete *******.

And as we've discussed in multiple threads now, most fans wouldn't jump ship, they'd rather stop watching the sport altogether.


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Old
05-21-2013, 06:55 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Dosing View Post
And your still doing the misstake of comparing swedish and american mentality. In america they might nicely attend ahl games or anything else that is put infront of them but we are a little more skeptical to outside influence(to put it mildly)
Would'nt they be just a little bit glad of cheering for a winning squad in a lower league than now, cheering for constant losers?

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I've watched my team go from playing against teams like Danderyd/Täby to now become Swedish Champions. If I were to deny others that possibility just because I want security for my own team, I'd be a complete *******.
Yes. I'm saying that i want to give the big revenue teams the best possible economic gains and the biggest fanbase increase possible to be able to lure better players to our league, and keep some AHL:ers and fringe NHL:ers here by giving them top dollars. This on the leech teams tab.

But, it should be said that i before that maybe want a couple of our teams that are residing in some of our biggest citys a chance to play in the KHL. Same deal really, create really really big clubs that may get followers from some fans of teams in our domestic league. They probably can sheer for both teams since they are not in the same league. Many northerners like Gothenburg more than Stockholm for example i believe. Maybe in Stockholm they can do as the Helvetics in Switzerland, form a whole new team that perhaps are on the verge of joining the KHL. That way they could create a real big fanbase, this just an idea of course.

Oh and i am swedish btw. There are actually no place named Pominville in Alberta.


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05-21-2013, 07:51 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Dosing View Post
Actually swedish hockey is doing fine especially after the "reform" so to speak.
And with the superteam example it was the idea behind it that counted, not how many teams you can list.
Also im sorry but "if the league feel like it, they can replace" just doesn't cut it. Either it's a closed league or it isn't.
Yes because the NHL have the same number of teams in the same locations as they had 60, 40, 20 or even 2 years ago.

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05-22-2013, 02:35 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
Would'nt they be just a little bit glad of cheering for a winning squad in a lower league than now, cheering for constant losers?
Most fans aren't even hockey fans, they watch the games only because it's their town that's playing. Just like most swedes will only watch hockey when tre kronor is playing.

You say your swedish but i doubt it, no offense but no swede would be so clueless about how it works here.

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05-22-2013, 02:39 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Rutkowski View Post
Yes because the NHL have the same number of teams in the same locations as they had 60, 40, 20 or even 2 years ago.
Why is what the nhl has even relevant? To different sportculture to compare.

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05-22-2013, 09:01 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by icing
Too many teams. How is this league supposed to be competitive on a high level?
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Originally Posted by Rutkowski View Post
By teams being able to get away from the worry of demotion with a rebuild they can focus on the sport and putting out the best product. Yeah, top talents will still go to the NHL but isn't that the same in the KHL(other than a few exceptions)? Hockey would also grow because, IMO, the product would be a lot more entertaining because it's no way to deny that there's teams in HockeyAllsvenskan that have potential for supporter growth(Almtuna, Malmö) that would get a much better chance in the SHL.
It's not about that and that will not be enough. More teams, talent is spread out = lesser competition. We might end up with a league slightly better than Allsvenskan but slightly worse than Elitserien of today. That's not good from a developing point of view. Talents get a lesser league to deveop in and the Swedish national team gets a lesser top league to pick players from.

The teams will have less money. Do you think we can get much more out of a TV deal? I dont think so. More teams to share the same pie. We end up in a situation where players leave for the DEL and the NLA again to make a buck - draining the league even more. We can never do much about the NHL or the KHL but at least we don't lose players to Germany or Switzerland anymore. Today we can compete with those leagues economically.

That's why we would have to look somewhere else to increase revenue.

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05-22-2013, 09:27 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Dosing View Post
Most fans aren't even hockey fans, they watch the games only because it's their town that's playing. Just like most swedes will only watch hockey when tre kronor is playing.

You say your swedish but i doubt it, no offense but no swede would be so clueless about how it works here.
I still think they want to win more than they want to lose, and many of these teams will be almost forever losers as it is right now while stealing TV-money from the bigger teams. Besides, if they're not hockey fans as you say, why would they even want to cheer for a loser? Let them cheer fort their team in an environment where they can succeed, we cant have thirty elite teams in this country, this aint north america as you said.

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05-22-2013, 10:27 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
I still think they want to win more than they want to lose, and many of these teams will be almost forever losers as it is right now while stealing TV-money from the bigger teams. Besides, if they're not hockey fans as you say, why would they even want to cheer for a loser? Let them cheer fort their team in an environment where they can succeed, we cant have thirty elite teams in this country, this aint north america as you said.
You basically asked the same questions in all your posts and ive answered them twice now. It's irrelevant whether they win or lose. It's often the same towns football fans attending the hockeygames aswell. Because it is their towns. You think if AIK joins djurgården AIK's fans are gonna start cheering for djurgården? Björklöven and modo? And stop saying "we" please.

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05-22-2013, 11:30 AM
  #37
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You basically asked the same questions in all your posts and ive answered them twice now. It's irrelevant whether they win or lose. It's often the same towns football fans attending the hockeygames aswell. Because it is their towns. You think if AIK joins djurgården AIK's fans are gonna start cheering for djurgården? Björklöven and modo? And stop saying "we" please.
The only time i used the word "we" in my last post was when i said "we cant have thirty elite teams in this country, this aint north america"

It's not rocket science. Personally i prefer three to four in the KHL. Others can start a thread like this wanting twenty of them, it's their preference. Your preference is that our "elite" hockey should be in a gold fish bowl looking out, with boring hockey, boring players, no evolution.

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05-22-2013, 12:21 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
The only time i used the word "we" in my last post was when i said "we cant have thirty elite teams in this country, this aint north america"

It's not rocket science. Personally i prefer three to four in the KHL. Others can start a thread like this wanting twenty of them, it's their preference. Your preference is that our "elite" hockey should be in a gold fish bowl looking out, with boring hockey, boring players, no evolution.
Ehh what are you on about? they have been teaching trainers across the country new ways of training and we're seeing the results. Also what does the khl have to do with anything? "others can start a thread like this wanting twenty of them" what?
Maybe your on the wrong board as well as thread buddy, how about you head back to your real board and change your flag on the way ye? ;P

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05-22-2013, 01:16 PM
  #39
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Ehh what are you on about? they have been teaching trainers across the country new ways of training and we're seeing the results.
Sure we do, but the Elitserien still is terribly bad campared to what top hockey should be like. Unfortunately conservative people like you seem to have the hold over our domestic hockey, although people like Wikegård are starting to pop up on important positions.

Quote:
Also what does the khl have to do with anything? "others can start a thread like this wanting twenty of them" what?
Are you slow or are you only trying to be? Like i've said earlier in the thread, personally i would like to see three to four swedish teams in the KHL, making them dominant economically and sporting wise in this country. Others want to see a twenty team locked league like the OP does. I think it's hard to do both in such a small market as Sweden, so it probably becomes one or the other.

Quote:
Maybe your on the wrong board as well as thread buddy, how about you head back to your real board and change your flag on the way ye? ;P
As i said: There are no place in Alberta called Pominville, kompis. Personally i either believe you happen to not live in a big city or be the fan of a team that can be elite without coming from one, making you as biased as i am although i happen to be a fan of Frölunda which obviously would be one of the elite teams teams that the OP is talking about. Your small teams are out. Or you're simply a dinosaur when it comes to making live elite hockey here in Sweden as good as it can be.


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05-22-2013, 02:17 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
Sure we do, but the Elitserien still is terribly bad campared to what top hockey should be like. Unfortunately conservative people like you seem to have the hold over our domestic hockey, although people like Wikegård are starting to pop up on important positions.


Are you slow or are you only trying to be? Like i've said earlier in the thread, personally i would like to see three to four swedish teams in the KHL, making them dominant economically and sporting wise in this country. Others want to see a twenty team locked league like the OP does. I think it's hard to do both in such a small market as Sweden, so it probably becomes one or the other.


As i said: There are no place in Alberta called Pominville, kompis. Personally i either believe you happen to not live in a big city or be the fan of a team that can be elite without coming from one, making you as biased as i am although i happen to be a fan of Frölunda which obviously would be one of the elite teams teams that the OP is talking about. Your small teams are out. Or you're simply a dinosaur when it comes to making live elite hockey here in Sweden as good as it can be.
What do you think elitserien should be then? Because if you want khl teams (which i found funny because you just took it out of the blue in a thread about a swedish league, and then said others that want even more should create a thread for this. Like anyone had said a word about it) then you by definition dont want elitserien to be good meaning you dont really care about swedish hockey, only "three or four teams" as you put it. Or will all other clubs feeding "three or four teams" give swedish hockey more depth and make the sport more popular? Please explain how so i can repeat yet again what it seems you just cant process.

Also im forever malmöit and malmöfan. Malmö may not be the biggest but i think it qualifies for the "special" teams club in OP. And even if i was a smalltowner it still wouldn't change the fact that a closed league is a **** idea for swedish hockey (which was the original argument before you pulled some other league out of your hat)


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05-22-2013, 04:43 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Dosing View Post
What do you think elitserien should be then? Because if you want khl teams (which i found funny because you just took it out of the blue in a thread about a swedish league, and then said others that want even more should create a thread for this. Like anyone had said a word about it)
No i did not, read again. I said that I personally wanted that efter pushing for a still good alternative that the OP and friends has been promoting.

Quote:
then you by definition dont want elitserien to be good meaning you dont really care about swedish hockey, only "three or four teams" as you put it. Or will all other clubs feeding "three or four teams" give swedish hockey more depth and make the sport more popular? Please explain how so i can repeat yet again what it seems you just cant process.
Three or four KHL teams yes. That would hardly "kill" swedish hockey although it might lessen the top of the domestic league. Or not, perhaps the sport as a whole can grow when Radulov and company arrives, so the total revenues gets bigger. Maybe people will buy more gear if they root for their favourite domestic and KHL-team at the same time as well.

Quote:
Also im forever malmöit and malmöfan. Malmö may not be the biggest but i think it qualifies for the "special" teams club in OP. And even if i was a smalltowner it still wouldn't change the fact that a closed league is a **** idea for swedish hockey
That it's a ****ty idea is your opinion, not a fact. My opinion is that you are wrong. This is what we are debating here, and i dont care very much about converting your opinion becouse you are just one voice. It's the nature of a debate and it's the lisseners that's more important becouse they are more.


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Old
05-22-2013, 05:32 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
No i did not, read again. I said that I personally wanted that efter pushing for a still good alternative that the OP and friends has been promoting.


Three or four KHL teams yes. That would hardly "kill" swedish hockey although it might lessen the top of the domestic league. Or not, perhaps the sport as a whole can grow when Radulov and company arrives, so the total revenues gets bigger. Maybe people will buy more gear if they root for their favourite domestic and KHL-team at the same time as well.


That it's a ****ty idea is your opinion, not a fact. My opinion is that you are wrong. This is what we are debating here, and i dont care very much about converting your opinion becouse you are just one voice. It's the nature of a debate and it's the lisseners that's more important becouse they are more.
Your still talking as if i haven't already explained the flaws in your "idea". We're treading dangerously close to burial of heads in sand. And why do you keep bringing up another league lol? If you are swedish you should know that no one will care about seeing some foreign teams with names they cant even pronounce filled with players who also have names you cant even pronounce. It won't matter what "company" arrives lol.
The issue is whether a closed swedish league would be good or not, and like i said before(and now asking) how are they gonna motivate clubs to put effort into development aka elevating swedish hockey even more(since it is progressing) if they tell all clubs of smaller towns that they better get used to whatever divions?

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05-23-2013, 05:35 AM
  #43
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Norra (North)

IF Björklöven
Luleå HF
Modo Hockey
Skellefteå AIK
Timrå IK
Östersund?


Mellan (Middle)

Brynäs IF
Färjestad BK
Leksand IF
Mora IK
Västerås IK
Örebro HK


Östra (East)

AIK
Almtuna IS
Djurgården IF
Linköping HC
Södertälje SK
HC Vita Hästen (Norrköping)


Södra (South)

Frölunda HC
HV71
Malmö Redhawks
Rögle BK
Växjö Lakers
IK Oskarshamn


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06-01-2013, 07:32 AM
  #44
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I prefer to let teams compete on the ice instead of awarding spots in the league based on market size. Plus, even if the league would get better attendances and TV deals with teams like Malmö and DIF in there, it doesn't make much difference on a big scale. The best players will still be going to NHL and KHL. Sweden is just not a big enough market to compete.

And the financial gains of a closed legaue would be probably be smaller than what Darth Yoda and others think. The argument that fans of lesser teams would start following "real teams" and thus increasing their fanbases is simply not based in reality. If I was a Karlskoga fan I wouldn't say "**** it!I'm gonna follow Örebro instead now that they offer a better product". It does not work that way. I follow my hometown team because it is my team, as Dosing said. When I want to watch great, high quality hockey I watch the NHL and Olympics.

I'm not sure that "the product" would be much better either. Yes, the top teams maybe would be able to sign the odd KHL'er, but at the same time you would have teams at the bottom "rebuilding" ie sucking and selling off their top players instead of fighting to avoid relegation. This problem would be even bigger with 16, 18 or 20 teams.

So, from a fan standpoint, I don't see any positives.

The quality of Allsvenskan would probably go down significantly as well, which would be negative from a player development standpoint.

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