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Phoenix LXXXI: I'll Gladly Pay You Tuesday for Your Franchise Today!

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Old
06-02-2013, 12:24 PM
  #51
Tommy Hawk
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Originally Posted by madhi19 View Post
Semantic, you got the point anyway it like waiting for your "Girlfriend/Boyfriend" to dump you so you ain't the ******* who ended the relationship.
Not semantics, two different things completely. One is local officials the other is private.


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Originally Posted by JimAnchower View Post
The NHL may have asked a sympathetic councilman in Atlanta what the chances were of them building them arena. If, as expected, he/she said there was 0% chance of it passing, they weren't going to officially ask. They weren't going to ask because it wouldn't have been successful, and they would have received negative press because of it.

I agree. Phoenix wouldn't need a second arena unless US Airways Center was over-flowing with events and tenants.
Even if the City of Atlanta said OK, it would take years to build and the team still had nowhere to play.


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Originally Posted by MNNumbers View Post
170 is way out of line. I am thinking of 85M loan from the league with promises of revenue sharing as being a discount. But I will admit I don't understand how the loan and the revenue sharing will actually work. Someone fill me on if they want.
How does the NHL guarantee them revenue sharing? Isn't the revenue sharing based upon certain metrics? And doesn't it only go to a defined number of teams? This would be a great way to alienate the owners. Can you imagine that conversation? How do yo tell an owner they get nothing instead of several million? That owner would then need to decrease player spending in order not to lose money or would have to kick in out of his own pocket? And if it goes on for too long, you may have a team like Columbus or Nashville or Carolina or Florida or Tampa Bay in deep doody again.

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06-02-2013, 12:41 PM
  #52
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I know this is a little o.t., but just how many other teams are in trouble? NYI are moving to Brooklyn, so who else is there? Besides, Seattle will be (should be) ready in a few years. Seems to me the Coyote grenade looks like it is about to blow up unless they throw it and throw it now to QC. Any other team in trouble, can wait for Seattle/Hamilton/Portland/OKC/Hartford to get their act together one would think. Then again, nothing in this whole ordeal has made an inkling of sense so who knows? Bettman is the only one and he isn't talking.
We don't know who really in trouble but the Panthers for example just managed to modify their lease to include a two years out clause if the revenues are bellow a certain threshold for two years in a row they can break their lease. The Sharks are making cash call after every season not a big deal for their big pocket owners but the moment these fat cat get tired of their toys it can get dicey. Tampa is secure as long as Vinik own them but how long is that gonna last? Usually hedge fund manager want to cash out sooner or later on their investment. The Blue Jacket are set in Columbus until 2039 except they only have a $36 million get out of jail tax... Beside Gary does not want a landing spot ready at all time just for financial reason. What happen if god forbid an arena burn to the ground one day? It bad news in healthy market but it would be catastrophic in any of the marginal market.

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06-02-2013, 12:53 PM
  #53
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Not semantics, two different things completely. One is local officials the other is private.
You're right that the Atlanta move was primarily a private decision, but MNNumbers is also correct that there was a public decision involved. Atlanta's mayor, when asked, made it clear that the city would have no money to make a local sale work, the opposite of what was happening in Glendale. I think that was the proper approach, but it certainly would have limited the options any buyer and ASG had left to make a sale work and keep the team in Atlanta.

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06-02-2013, 01:35 PM
  #54
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We don't know who really in trouble but the Panthers for example just managed to modify their lease to include a two years out clause if the revenues are bellow a certain threshold for two years in a row they can break their lease. The Sharks are making cash call after every season not a big deal for their big pocket owners but the moment these fat cat get tired of their toys it can get dicey. Tampa is secure as long as Vinik own them but how long is that gonna last? Usually hedge fund manager want to cash out sooner or later on their investment. The Blue Jacket are set in Columbus until 2039 except they only have a $36 million get out of jail tax... Beside Gary does not want a landing spot ready at all time just for financial reason. What happen if god forbid an arena burn to the ground one day? It bad news in healthy market but it would be catastrophic in any of the marginal market.
If there were ever a situation like the Hornets had where a natural disaster forced them to relocate, there are plenty of arenas around north america where a team could crash for a season or 2.

IIRC QC once hosted a team on 9 days notice. I don't remember where I read that though

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06-02-2013, 02:11 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by "Major4Boarding"

For anyone interested in some light reading over the weekend

http://www.glendaleaz.com/Clerk/docu...ySchedules.pdf
I make no apologies, I'm a junkie for this type of stuff so thanks for the link. It took me on an interesting path and yielded even more interesting anecdotal evidence.

City of Glendale Expenditures/Expenses by Department Fiscal Year 2014 @ SCHEDULE F (PDF Pg 14) FUND 1282 - Arena Event Operations (via M4B link above)

- ADOPTED BUDGETED EXPENDITURES/EXPENSES FY13: $17,000,000
That's the legacy budget figure from the previous counsel and the JIG lease.

- ACTUAL EXPENDITURES/EXPENSES FY13: $1,844,296
JIG did not complete a transaction, so the adopted budget figure of $17MM never had to be paid. Instead, the actual was $1.8MM. That figure represents the repayment of the NHL AMF $50MM.

Sidebar: It's important to understand that Glendale didn't have $50MM in cash to drop into an escrow account. What the city did is kite cash from other funds in order to give money to the NHL. The hilarious conclusion of that adventure is documented in the Follow Your Money Revenue figures for FY11 and FY12. Fund 1780 generated less than $5MM per year, meaning the city took a relaxing $40MM bath on the deal. I guess the Money-Making-Machine was Out-Of-Order for those two years.

- BUDGETED EXPENDITURES/EXPENSES FY14: $9,500,000
This is not a $9.5MM AMF. It's a roll up of three different elements 1. AMF ($6MM) 2. Arena Cap Repair Set Aside ($500k) 3. Payback of the NHL AMF $50MM ($3MM) The interesting part, to me, was following Element 3.

Via April 26, 2013 Budget Workshop (PDF Pg. 11-14)
The FY 2013 budget includes $1.8M for the debt service on the inter-fund loans. The current inter-fund repayment terms are 25 years and an interest rate of 3.245% - 3.9%. The FY 2014 draft GF budget includes $3.0M for repayment of inter-fund loans. This is an increase from the $1.8M in the FY 2013 GF budget because it assumes an accelerated payment plan for the water-sewer portion through a lease financing mechanism.
The city staff recommended, and the majority of the council approved, accelerating repayment of the NHL AMF $50MM. But, that was not the only option. In fact, it seems there was discussion on alternate options:
Two possible alternatives exist related to the interfund loans and the additional funding needed for the public safety and health insurance issues discussed above. 1. There is the alternative of forgiving all or a portion of the inter-fund loans. 2. There is the alternative of continuing the $1.8M in annual debt service payments on the inter-fund loans and forgoing the accelerated repayment plan for the water-sewer portion of the inter-fund loan. This alternative would make $1.2M in GF ongoing funds available.

Both alternatives of this option result in a rate impact for the city’s water/sewer operations and sanitation/landfill operations. The rate updates that the Water Services and Public Works Departments completed in preparation for the FY 2014 budget assume repayment of the interfund loans. If the inter-fund loan is not repaid, rate increases will be sooner and of a greater magnitude in order to cover operating and capital costs for future years.
Put simply, that means the city council contemplated bailing on their obligation to repay the NHL AMF $50. Instead, they would have raised the rates so citizens paid more for water, sewer, sanitation, landfill. That would have freed up $3MM per year that the city could have added to the Team Gosbee AMF, taking it from $6MM to $9MM. This alternative is not attributed and it would be unfair of me to pin it on Sherwood absent any evidence that it was his idea. However, when terms like "bridge the gap" and "identify other revenue streams" are mentioned, these are the types of things they are talking about.

The anecdotal conclusion that may be drawn is that the previous administration and council majority would have had no problem foisting the NHL AMF $50MM debt onto the citizens so they could throw even more money into the Coyotes blackhole. The current administration and majority was not interested in that approach. In fact, they opted to accelerate repayment of the debt instead. Has fiscal responsibility come to Glendale?

Note: NHL AMF $50MM is used for convenience. It is technically $45MM as the final installment of $5MM has not been identified in any budget documents on the city website.

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06-02-2013, 02:14 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by aqib View Post
If there were ever a situation like the Hornets had where a natural disaster forced them to relocate, there are plenty of arenas around north america where a team could crash for a season or 2.

IIRC QC once hosted a team on 9 days notice. I don't remember where I read that though
1968 the Flyers had to play 5 games in QC when the Spectrum's roof blew off.

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06-02-2013, 02:37 PM
  #57
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If assigning blame, I lay it directly at the NHL's feet, who in planting the seed in Phoenix in the first place owed it to the game, the people of Arizona & to the other 29 teams to play it straight, up-front, conscientiously & responsibly work with that franchise in order to insure its success & precisely avoid such a massive unravelling of what should've been an entirely successful entry into the 7th largest market in the US.
So true...

To quote:

"When Colangelo was designing America West Arena, he wanted to build the most intimate arena in the NBA. He also wanted to keep his options open if the NHL desired a franchise in the desert. He called NHL Commissioner Gary Bettman, who told him there was no future for hockey in the desert. [emphasis mine]

"A couple of years later, I get call from Gary telling me that the team from Winnipeg wants to move to Phoenix and a couple of guys would like to meet with me," Colangelo said."

Source: azcentral.com/sports/suns/articles/2012/05/01/20120501jerry-colangelo-statue-phoenix-suns-diamondbacks-coyotes.html

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06-02-2013, 02:49 PM
  #58
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...This alternative is not attributed and it would be unfair of me to pin it on Sherwood absent any evidence that it was his idea. However, when terms like "bridge the gap" and "identify other revenue streams" are mentioned, these are the types of things they are talking about.
Interesting, and only natural to assume this is where Sherwood was coming from as there was/is nowhere else for him to be coming from beyond perhaps as suggested just shutting down an entire department, like Communications as Weiers voiced aloud during the Budget Planning Meeting about 5wks ago or so. Any immediate hike in water & utility rates wouldve been killer to deal with politically, on top of the tax increase, the citizenry possibly waking up from their slumbers and going a tad Coco Loco on their newly elected Mayor & District Councillors once the details leaked as to why, that they were paying forward debt servicing on the $50M paid to the NHL & so on. Not pretty.

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06-02-2013, 02:50 PM
  #59
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So true...

To quote:

"When Colangelo was designing America West Arena, he wanted to build the most intimate arena in the NBA. He also wanted to keep his options open if the NHL desired a franchise in the desert. He called NHL Commissioner Gary Bettman, who told him there was no future for hockey in the desert. [emphasis mine]

"A couple of years later, I get call from Gary telling me that the team from Winnipeg wants to move to Phoenix and a couple of guys would like to meet with me," Colangelo said."

Source: azcentral.com/sports/suns/articles/2012/05/01/20120501jerry-colangelo-statue-phoenix-suns-diamondbacks-coyotes.html
Nice find Llama!

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06-02-2013, 03:02 PM
  #60
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Any immediate hike in water & utility rates wouldve been killer to deal with politically, on top of the tax increase, the citizenry possibly waking up from their slumbers and going a tad Coco Loco on their newly elected Mayor & District Councillors once the details leaked as to why, that they were paying forward debt servicing on the $50M paid to the NHL & so on. Not pretty.
To that, I agree and salute you!


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06-02-2013, 03:07 PM
  #61
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Nice find Llama!
Ya, interesting find, and Ive seen other quotes, bits & pieces from Colangelo over the years, yet in not one of them does he ever talk about the punitive lease agreement he simply had to have had a hand in putting together. Instead he's all feigned concern, real "sorrry" about the mess that theyve been in. Empathetic. Aint buyin it... The AWA was only a couple of years old at that time & he had some serious debt to pay down. An NHL franchise absolutely ideal, and two neophyte owners who's pockets he could pick. Theres just a certain amount of revisionism, borderline hypocrisy with his statements, mostly short. For example, why would Gary Bettman just call him out of the Blue 2yrs after supposedly making this comment that "hockey will never work in the desert"? I dont believe for a minute Burke or Gluckstern just all of a sudden all on their own went "ya, lets go to Phoenix". They were after Minnesota for Gods sake. A northern relo destination. You dont think Bettman directed these two Wingnuts into the waiting arms of his old NBA buddy Jerry Colangelo? Its like Jerrys' trying to wash his hands of this debacle entirely when he himself did in fact play a leading role in driving the team into the ditch, forcing them to have to look to move or go bust in the first place.... so for Colangelo at his advanced age, lets re-write history a bit here, burnish the image, legacy... build the guy a statute sure, one where he's strangling a coyote to death with concrete or marble fists because y'know what? Theres only so many ways you can polish a turd, and the stank of what he did back there aint goin away.


Last edited by Killion: 06-02-2013 at 03:21 PM.
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06-02-2013, 04:23 PM
  #62
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Has fiscal responsibility come to Glendale?
It would appear so, perhaps driven by bond rating agencies as much as anything.

What is clear from the budget materials, key points of which you have summarized so nicely, is that the COG is not going to be inclined or able to just "close the gap" between the $6 million AMF committed in the budget and any substantially higher amount that might be expected by Gosbee. If Gosbee and co. want more money, then they'll have to rely on "creative" options that might be suggested by Sherwood or someone else. Perhaps they'd be interested in the prospect of a tasty CFD (though that has been a non-starter). Regardless, all signs point away from the notion of the COG just writing a cheque for an AMF for anything higher than $6 million.

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06-02-2013, 04:23 PM
  #63
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So true...

To quote:

"When Colangelo was designing America West Arena, he wanted to build the most intimate arena in the NBA. He also wanted to keep his options open if the NHL desired a franchise in the desert. He called NHL Commissioner Gary Bettman, who told him there was no future for hockey in the desert. [emphasis mine]

"A couple of years later, I get call from Gary telling me that the team from Winnipeg wants to move to Phoenix and a couple of guys would like to meet with me," Colangelo said."

Source: azcentral.com/sports/suns/articles/2012/05/01/20120501jerry-colangelo-statue-phoenix-suns-diamondbacks-coyotes.html
America West Arena broke ground in 1990 and opened in 1992. Bettman didn't become commissioner until 1993. I blame Bettman for a lot of things but I can't blame him for Colangelo not factoring in hockey when designing the arena.

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06-02-2013, 04:28 PM
  #64
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1968 the Flyers had to play 5 games in QC when the Spectrum's roof blew off.
I know its been mentioned here a bunch of times when Phoenicians say QC doesn't have time to get ready, QCers than throw that down.

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06-02-2013, 04:40 PM
  #65
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Regardless, all signs point away from the notion of the COG just writing a cheque for an AMF for anything higher than $6 million.
... cant see them doing that Whileee. Havent got it & even if they did, forget it. Should be an interesting week what with the RFP bid inf likely to make its way into the press; Renaissance purportedly with meetings scheduled in Glendale etc.

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06-02-2013, 05:01 PM
  #66
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So true...

To quote:

"When Colangelo was designing America West Arena, he wanted to build the most intimate arena in the NBA. He also wanted to keep his options open if the NHL desired a franchise in the desert. He called NHL Commissioner Gary Bettman, who told him there was no future for hockey in the desert. [emphasis mine]

"A couple of years later, I get call from Gary telling me that the team from Winnipeg wants to move to Phoenix and a couple of guys would like to meet with me," Colangelo said."

Source: azcentral.com/sports/suns/articles/2012/05/01/20120501jerry-colangelo-statue-phoenix-suns-diamondbacks-coyotes.html

Yeah, no future, just an eternal present. Umm... are the Coyotes stuck in Groundhog Day?

I think this saga has officially gone on long enough for Billy Joel to make a Phoenix Saga version of "We Didn't Start the Fire".

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06-02-2013, 05:39 PM
  #67
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And, the irony. JimA. Your question is "Why would Atlanta need a 2nd large arena?" We can also ask "Why did the Phoenix area need a 2nd large arena?" Answer: they didn't. Your question exactly shows the error in judgment of Glendale in building the job.

Understand the point MNN. But they had to build the 2nd arena because the one downtown was never going to be renovated to make it feasible for a hockey team to remain a tenant there.

This could go off onto a whole discussion of its own... but I stated a long time ago that the Coyotes got dumped onto Phoenix before it was ready to take on an NHL franchise. IIRC.... Jerry Colangelo took the original Jets franchise in as a favor to Gary Bettman whom he knew from Gary's days in the NBA. But Colangelo had just had the AWA remodeled (at Phoenix's expense) to create an intimate environment for his NBA franchise. He wasn't about to tear all that up for another tenant.

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06-02-2013, 05:45 PM
  #68
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.... Jerry Colangelo took the original Jets franchise in as a favor to Gary Bettman whom he knew from Gary's days in the NBA.
I think youve got that backwards TL. Gary did Jerry the favour, delivering up a
coupla Rubes in Burke & Gluckstern ripe for the picking. Practically gift wrapped.

Took that pair of Grifters to school ol' Jerry did.

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06-02-2013, 05:51 PM
  #69
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They'd have sold them for Relo but instead approved Ellmans entirely leveraged buyout, enabled yet another Grifter to essentially hi-jack the leagues larger interests in actually developing hockey & the NHL brand in the market with a complimentary rather than all consuming real estate development. Left to his own devices without any oversite whatsoever, you'd have thought the NHL wouldve smelled a Rat in the over-extended purchase agreement in acquiring the Coyotes in the first place, then secondly when he refused to provide Scottsdale with his financials. He needed a willing municipality that would go for the Goblet without asking for a whole lot in the way of bona-fides'. "Trust me". Well, Glendale did just that, Credit-Suisse & others, Moyes of course, a bit of a Rounder himself, and so here we are. If assigning blame, I lay it directly at the NHL's feet, who in planting the seed in Phoenix in the first place owed it to the game, the people of Arizona & to the other 29 teams to play it straight, up-front, conscientiously & responsibly work with that franchise in order to insure its success & precisely avoid such a massive unravelling of what should've been an entirely successful entry into the 7th largest market in the US.
Bingo.....!!!

Ellman bought the Coyotes as a draw to his dream of a massive sports/entertainment complex. He was going to rely on the revenues from Westgate to compensate for any hockey losses. He would build it, and then sell the entire project off (including the franchise) after completion. Which I think would have been this year had all construction schedules been met.

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06-02-2013, 05:54 PM
  #70
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I think youve got that backwards TL. Gary did Jerry the favour, delivering up a
coupla Rubes in Burke & Gluckstern ripe for the picking. Practically gift wrapped.

Took that pair of Grifters to school ol' Jerry did.
Yeah you could look at it that way too.

Jerry was a real fox. Got the city to build him an arena and ball park for him to play sports magnate in. But to his credit he did give back to the community wherever he could.

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06-02-2013, 05:55 PM
  #71
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Yeah, no future, just an eternal present. Umm... are the Coyotes stuck in Groundhog Day?

I think this saga has officially gone on long enough for Billy Joel to make a Phoenix Saga version of "We Didn't Start the Fire".
Challenge Accepted!

Gluckstern, Richard Burke, Tkachuk, drop the puck
Shane Doan, Bulin Wall, trade for Gartner did nothing at all

We didn't kill the franchise! Its been struggling since it started playing. We tried to save it! But the fans ignored it!

Playoffs 5 out of the first six. Fans still didn't buy tix. Bret Hall! Wayne Gretzky! Ring of Honor! Oh the Irony!

Franchise in a swoon! Obstructed views mean no financial boon!

We didn't kill the franchise! Its been struggling since it started playing. We tried to save it! But the fans ignored it!

New arena no new fans! Should have packed the moving vans! Ellman goes away what else do I have to say!

We didn't kill the franchise! Its been struggling since it started playing. We tried to save it! But the fans ignored it!

Franchise in bankruptcy! Sold to the guy who makes Blackberry!
Bettman says you can't go! Moyes says please please make it so!

Court case! Cup cakes! Pull the plug for god's sakes!

We didn't kill the franchise! Its been struggling since it started playing. We tried to save it! But the fans ignored it!

Reinsdorf! Ice Edge! Hulsizer! Elaine Scruggs! Joyce Clark! Jamison! Someone wake up Leiberman!

4 years! Arena fees! Someone end this please! Potential owners come and go! I can't take it any mo!

We didn't kill the franchise! Its been struggling since it started playing. We tried to save it! But the fans ignored it!


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06-02-2013, 06:00 PM
  #72
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Bingo.....!!!
Well sure. You Sell on Emotion. Justify with Logic....
and if you cant make a logical case, just make **** up.

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But to his credit he did give back to the community wherever he could.
Ya, Old School. Harold Ballard was a noted Philanthropist. The Norris Familia.
Dollar Bill Wirtz. Jerry Reinsdorf. Most Scoundrels are. Eases the conscience.
Clyde Barrow used to giveaway about 90% of what he stole. Robin Hood Complex.

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06-02-2013, 06:01 PM
  #73
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Has any NHL team ever relocated in June?

 
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06-02-2013, 06:02 PM
  #74
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~from wiki
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In 2012, Vanderbeek finalized a deal with the team’s lenders that will keep him in control of the franchise for at least two years.
Maybe the NHL needs Quebec for the Devils next summer?

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06-02-2013, 06:04 PM
  #75
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~from wiki


Maybe the NHL needs Quebec for the Devils next summer?
No way. that arena is too new. If anything they will twist New Jersey's arm to get them to tear down the meadowlands arena and force all the arena events to Prudential to improve the Devil's bottom line.

Heck maybe get Jamison into the Devils ownership group

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