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2013 NHL Draft (draft day chat link in Post 887)

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05-31-2013, 09:04 PM
  #526
XX
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Originally Posted by _Del_ View Post
Surprised they didn't take a chance on Ruuttu after using that pick...
I imagine there was a lot of behind the scenes drama with that pick, seeing as how he was the son of a scout employed by the team and considered a huge reach.

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05-31-2013, 09:18 PM
  #527
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He also just plain didn't develop. Why use a contract?

Also goes to show that 2nd rounders are usually very valuable trade chips and very rarely very valuable player picks. You can get a good NHL vet for a 2nd. Rarely does a 2nd become a good NHL vet.

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05-31-2013, 09:30 PM
  #528
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I imagine there was a lot of behind the scenes drama with that pick, seeing as how he was the son of a scout employed by the team and considered a huge reach.
We knew that going in. I guess, I just figured they might as well ride it out because they've invested that 2nd. But, it's not my money they're spending, so it's easy for me to say.

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06-01-2013, 08:39 AM
  #529
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rt View Post
He also just plain didn't develop. Why use a contract?

Also goes to show that 2nd rounders are usually very valuable trade chips and very rarely very valuable player picks. You can get a good NHL vet for a 2nd. Rarely does a 2nd become a good NHL vet.
It's a good point to make, particularly considering how few of our 2nd round picks have been worth the development time.

Our 2nd round picks over the last 10 years:

Logan Stephenson
Enver Lisin
P.O. Pelletier
Brett Maclean
Joel Gistedt
Jared Staal
Chris Brown
Phil Lane
Oscar Lindberg
Alex Ruuttu
Lucas Lessio
Jordan Martinook

I'd rather acquire Antoine Vermette.

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06-01-2013, 08:58 AM
  #530
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Originally Posted by rt View Post
He also just plain didn't develop. Why use a contract?

Also goes to show that 2nd rounders are usually very valuable trade chips and very rarely very valuable player picks. You can get a good NHL vet for a 2nd. Rarely does a 2nd become a good NHL vet.
How true.

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06-01-2013, 10:11 AM
  #531
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It's a good point to make, particularly considering how few of our 2nd round picks have been worth the development time.
There's a bias in that sample. Are Coyote 2nd rounders worthless because 2nd rounders tend to not pan out? Is it poor scouting? Or is it (more likely) that those players tend to need good development? Something that the organization has been terrible at. There are good players there, sometimes even great ones. Looking at 06/07 you find guys like Lucic, Anisimov, Kulemin, McGinn, Subban, Simmonds etc... Some are stars, but most 2nd rounders are just value guys who can flesh out a roster. You have to hit on one every now and then.

I don't disagree that 2nd rounders are overvalued by just about everyone, but they're still a shot at a great player/asset.

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06-01-2013, 11:52 AM
  #532
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I think there are multiple items working against the Coyotes on their draft choices over the years and why we have so few that have made it and contributed.

1 - Our scouts are complete crap, there are gems in every draft past the 1st round and except for Yandle, we never find them

2 - Our development program isn't that great either, not sure why we couldn't just take some "lessons learned" from organizations that develop well and apply them to the Coyotes

3 - Sometimes it's up to the player to push through all the crap and become the player they need to be

We've had very poor luck picking players obviously and I'd put it at 70% scouting, 20% development and 10% the players we pick don't have the stuff to actually push through to the big club

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06-01-2013, 12:00 PM
  #533
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Originally Posted by Sindiggy View Post
I think there are multiple items working against the Coyotes on their draft choices over the years and why we have so few that have made it and contributed.

1 - Our scouts are complete crap, there are gems in every draft past the 1st round and except for Yandle, we never find them

2 - Our development program isn't that great either, not sure why we couldn't just take some "lessons learned" from organizations that develop well and apply them to the Coyotes

3 - Sometimes it's up to the player to push through all the crap and become the player they need to be

We've had very poor luck picking players obviously and I'd put it at 70% scouting, 20% development and 10% the players we pick don't have the stuff to actually push through to the big club
I guess the question at this point is have things improved since Maloney arrived?

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06-01-2013, 12:22 PM
  #534
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Mike Stone was a great pick and Chris Brown and Lucas Lessio are certainly on track.

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06-01-2013, 12:33 PM
  #535
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I guess the question at this point is have things improved since Maloney arrived?
I would say no considering that our new "draft guru" selected Martinook in the 2nd round. I stood by my opinion that it was a waste of a pick and I still stand by it.

Over the years, we'd have been better off not having a scouting department and actually just take whoever is on the central scouting draft board. I'll back through to see who we would have gotten had we just done that.

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06-01-2013, 02:47 PM
  #536
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If you take the time to look at 2nd rounds historically, there are only two or three useful NHL players in each, on average.

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06-01-2013, 03:17 PM
  #537
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If you take the time to look at 2nd rounds historically, there are only two or three useful NHL players in each, on average.
I would guess it's more like 6-8 on in a typical draft year. Going back enough years that we can safely say which guys have become NHL regulars.

2007: PK Subban, TJ Galiardi, Nick Spaling, Wayne Simmonds

2006: Michael Neuvirth, Jamie McGinn, Cory Emmerton, Nikolai Kulemin, Jeff Petry, Shawn Matthias, Milan Lucic, Artem Anisimov, Mike Weber, Jamie McBain

2005: James Neal, M-E Vlasic, Ondrej Pavelec, Justin Abdelkader, Paul Stastny, Guillaume Latendresse (maybe), Mason Raymond

2004: Dave Bolland, Bryan Bickell, Blake Comeau, David Booth, Nicklas Grossman, Brandon Dubinsky, Alex Goligoski, David Krejci

2003: Loui Eriksson, Kevin Klein, Patrice Bergeron, Matt Carle, Shea Weber, Corey Crawford, BJ Crombeen, Maxim Lapierre, David Backes, Jimmy Howard

2002: Jarret Stoll, Tim Brent (maybe), Josh Harding, Matt Greene, Duncan Keith, Matt Stajan, Johnny Boychuk, Tomas Fleischmann

2001: Derek Roy, Tim Jackman, Fedor Tyutin, Mike Cammalleri, Chris Thorburn, Jason Pominville, Jay McClement, Peter Budaj

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06-01-2013, 04:31 PM
  #538
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I was confused. I think the last time I looked, I was only looking for top six forwards. Of those there are usually two and a half, or so. Thanks for posting that list. Enlightening.

That said, the majority of those players would fail to return a 2nd round pick in a trade today. By my count, roughly 24 in seven years. About three a year.


Last edited by rt: 06-01-2013 at 04:41 PM.
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06-01-2013, 05:16 PM
  #539
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Alright, my first mock draft is in the books, I like to think I did okay considering how displeased I was with how the first two rounds shook out.

1. 12. C/LW, Djurgarden, Alex Wennberg(5th International)
2. 42. RW, KelPa, Artturi Lehkonen(19th International)
3. 62. RW/C, Blainville-Boisbriand, Marc-Olivier Roy(54th North American)
4. 73. C, Kingston, Ryan Kujawinski(63rd North American)
5. 133, C, Sioux City, Jake Guentzel(80th North American)
6. 163, G, Portland, Brendan Burke(13th North American)
7. 193, RW, Benilde-St. Margaret, Grant Besse(106th North American)

Besse is the reigning Mr. Hockey for the state of Minnesota, who finished 5th all time in goal scoring and 7th all time in points in a high school career. Committed to Wisconsin I saw this pick in the mold of the Hunter Fejes selection late in last year's draft.

The draft board is here if you wanted to check it out and see who was still available during my picks.


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06-02-2013, 02:16 AM
  #540
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OOEEL View Post
The draft board is here if you wanted to check it out and see who was still available during my picks.
33. Tampa Bay Lightning Artturi Lehkonen
42. Phoenix Coyotes Artturi Lehkonen

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06-02-2013, 03:06 AM
  #541
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Yeah they had skipped Tampa, despite the fact that he had DMed one of the people running the draft with his next pick, so when he brought it up(after I had already picked Lehkonen) they decided to make an exception as to not have to redo all the picks that had already taken place afterwards.

If things had went normally and Lehkonen was off the board I would have went Bjorkstrand, or possibly Dauphin.

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06-02-2013, 10:02 AM
  #542
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I would say no considering that our new "draft guru" selected Martinook in the 2nd round. I stood by my opinion that it was a waste of a pick and I still stand by it.

Over the years, we'd have been better off not having a scouting department and actually just take whoever is on the central scouting draft board. I'll back through to see who we would have gotten had we just done that.
I hope with a new owner we revamp our scouting department. That is where you start to build a competitive team.

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06-02-2013, 11:05 AM
  #543
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After looking at last year's draft again, I'm not impressed with our new scouting director. The only player on last year's list that is a player besides Sammy is Tikkinen.

No offense to our scouting staff, but several of our members here on this sight have drafted in 'mock drafts' much better than our scouts over the last 7 years.

We should have our own HF boards selection consensus draft from our posters here and measure that going forward to the crap that our scouting department selects.

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06-02-2013, 11:07 AM
  #544
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There are enough of us that follow the draft on the days it's being held that we could certainly pull that off.

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06-02-2013, 12:35 PM
  #545
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Originally Posted by OOEEL View Post
Throwing this in here and the prospects thread since it's relevant.


From Chris at the Maine Hockey Journal(@Chris_MHJ)


Thanks a lot Keith
Here's the supposedly complete list of players that went unsigned:

http://www.sportingnews.com/nhl/stor...g-combine-2009

Highest drafted players:
2-49 Christopher Gibson (LA)
2-51 Alexandre Ruuttu (Phx)
2-59 Rasmus Benstton (Fla)
3-62 Samu Perhonen (Edm)
3-85 Alan Quine (Det)
3-89 Justin Sefton (SJ)

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06-02-2013, 08:16 PM
  #546
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I was Coyotes GM/head scout in the Habs board mock draft. Any thoughts on my haul? I went forward heavy. I figure the Comrie pick won't be liked, but I felt he was quality value at that point.

Coyotes draft:

12. C/W Max Domi
42. LW Jacob De La Rose
62. G Eric Comrie
73. C Ryan Fitzgerald
133. C Jérémy Grégoire
163. LW Greg Betzold
193. C Kyle Platzer

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06-02-2013, 08:20 PM
  #547
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sindiggy View Post
I would say no considering that our new "draft guru" selected Martinook in the 2nd round. I stood by my opinion that it was a waste of a pick and I still stand by it.

Over the years, we'd have been better off not having a scouting department and actually just take whoever is on the central scouting draft board. I'll back through to see who we would have gotten had we just done that.
I know Martinook has taken a beating on these boards but I actually liked his style of play in the AHL this year. Yes, his first three months sucked as he failed to produce in the 5 mins/night he was playing on average but in Feb he put up 6 points in ten games, March he put up 8 points in 14 games, and in April he scored 3 points in 7 games. Not all-star material just yet but solid progression and with his work ethic we may have something here.

The 2012 Draft was awful. Guys taken in the 2nd round last year are guys that in a normal year you would take in the 4th/5th rounds. It made 2012 that much more of a crapshoot. Samuellson was a solid pick (although he has a knack for taking the most needless, unnecessary, and undisciplined, selfish penalties) which seems to have ticked off our Oiler friends (how come when the Oilers fired their GM that apparently made all the other GM's in the league stupid - or did MacTavish learn some jedi mind tricks while he was taking his MBA - I must've gone to the wrong University for mine) to no end.

Knickle has a huge Incomplete grade for me at this point. I'm anxious for the draft this year for him to prove his worth.

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06-02-2013, 08:21 PM
  #548
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Originally Posted by rt View Post
I was confused. I think the last time I looked, I was only looking for top six forwards. Of those there are usually two and a half, or so. Thanks for posting that list. Enlightening.

That said, the majority of those players would fail to return a 2nd round pick in a trade today. By my count, roughly 24 in seven years. About three a year.
I agree with mouser. I think your a little light in your numbers. I think a lot of those players would easily get you a 2nd round pick

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06-02-2013, 09:31 PM
  #549
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Originally Posted by Marc the Habs Fan View Post
I was Coyotes GM/head scout in the Habs board mock draft. Any thoughts on my haul? I went forward heavy. I figure the Comrie pick won't be liked, but I felt he was quality value at that point.

Coyotes draft:

12. C/W Max Domi
42. LW Jacob De La Rose
62. G Eric Comrie
73. C Ryan Fitzgerald
133. C Jérémy Grégoire
163. LW Greg Betzold
193. C Kyle Platzer
Fantastic.

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06-03-2013, 09:05 AM
  #550
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I think it usually takes a few years to see how your Amateur Scouting director is doing. One draft is not a good indication. For example, I liked what I saw from Martinook in the couple games I caught online. Like hbk said, not earth shattering, but he was working hard. And the fact that he was an overager in that draft that could jump right to the AHL was probably attractive for a team with forward issues like ours.

Keith Gretzky's drafting was actually rather average, at least when I compared it to the tsn.ca statistical projections from our picks at their ranges. He hit on basically all of our earliest picks. The drafting problem during his tenure, in my eyes, was that we accumulated an awful lot of late 1st and 2nd round picks, and he didn't convert on any of them. Summers, Tikhonov, Ross, Maclean - by the stats, at least one of them should have turned into a quality player - none did. On average, you're bound to randomly hit on a player in late rounds every now and again. Yandle was a good example of that. Problematically, for a team that needs a lot from the draft, Gretzky didn't do much to excel beyond the norm in later parts of the draft. Leaving his overall tenure quite average at a time when we needed it to be excellent, because we were in a rebuild mode.

I think our problem is terrible development. Our AHL squads have not been strong during the entire rebuild. Players came into a losing culture. Our AHL coaches weren't strong development coaches. And our top end players skipped the AHL step, then got dropped back down, creating entitlement issues. If we had developed them slowly and meticulously, we probably wouldn't have had those problems. I have to admit though, that Maloney taking responsibility for that gaff was one of the earliest times I admired his honesty.

It seems like things are changing, but it's a slow and aggravating change. I think they're doing a very good job developing defensemen. They seem to be doing better at developing goalies too. But forward development is still something we're well below average at.

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