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Is Henrik Lundqvist An HOFer?

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Old
05-29-2013, 01:05 PM
  #226
tombombadil
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
But is a 45-30 record something that is so gaudy that we have to even bring it up? He has a .600 winning percentage in the shootout. That's above average, but we aren't talking about an above average goalie here. These are numbers you come to expect from a star goalie. It doesn't add much for me at all. A win is a win.
How is it that a team's wins are placed directly onto the shoulders of a goalie, to the point where the team's success is considered THIS heavily into the goalie's legacy - yet we don't give the Hart to a goalie hardly ever?

This logic does not add up, in fact, it is polar.

No skater's career has been cast aside from consideration for the Hall by having his team's record brought up... yet, a skater wins the trophy for the player judged most valuable to his team every year.

Lundqvist stops shootout shooters at an elite rate, over a large sample size/workload. This is like taking Datsyuk/Kane/Jokinen, and discrediting every goal they score in a losing effort.

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05-29-2013, 05:15 PM
  #227
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
NHL stats:

http://www.nhl.com/ice/page.htm?id=30993

Active goalies playoff overtime going into 2013. Lundqvist is 2-8 plus 1-3 in 2013 yielding 3-11.
Hard to believe. But since he isn't drenched with playoff success it isn't a stretch. Now Brodeur's playoff overtime record, now THAT is a shock at how bad that is, which is strange with his resume.

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Originally Posted by tombombadil View Post
How is it that a team's wins are placed directly onto the shoulders of a goalie, to the point where the team's success is considered THIS heavily into the goalie's legacy - yet we don't give the Hart to a goalie hardly ever?

This logic does not add up, in fact, it is polar.

No skater's career has been cast aside from consideration for the Hall by having his team's record brought up... yet, a skater wins the trophy for the player judged most valuable to his team every year.

Lundqvist stops shootout shooters at an elite rate, over a large sample size/workload. This is like taking Datsyuk/Kane/Jokinen, and discrediting every goal they score in a losing effort.
It is the nature of the beast. That's why Rogie Vachon among others is still waiting to get into the HHOF, and even with him he has a very good record with the Hart trophy. Goalies are judged strictly. The simple reason that a goalie doesn't win the Hart as opposed to the Conn Smythe comes down to the fact that the playoffs are a shorter time span and the goalie is relied upon much heavier and in a shorter time span can dictate the outcome better. They also usually play every game in the postseason. While during the season they play 80% at best. This is why Corey Perry won the Hart in 2011 and not Tim Thomas, which I didn't agree with.

Lundqvist played well enough in the 2013 postseason that I certainly am not going to cast him aside for this, but the point I am trying to make is that there are goalies far more decorated than him who carried their teams for longer runs that aren't in the HHOF yet. So he definitely needs to do better than 2nd round and out.

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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
First, win percentage is not the stat we should look at before calling a goalie the best shootout goalie of the generation. That is save percentage in the shootout. Unless you think he has control over his team scoring goals.

Second, who says that his numbers have to be "gaudy" for them to be considered a part of his legacy? There has been a large enough sample of shootouts by now to prove that goalies are not ubiquitous robots in one on one situations and some of them are better at it than others. His numbers are the best, whether you think they're gaudy or not.

Third, who gets to say what is "gaudy"? You may think that his numbers aren't very far ahead of the pack but that could either be because you don't understand standard deviation, or it could actually mean that save percentages tend to clump together in the shootout, in which case the definition of gaudy for those purposes just needs to be revisited.
It is because his won-loss record in the shootout - in which he has the most control over the outcome - is about where you would expect it to be for him. Therefore it is hardly a lock that he will win a shootout. It's a regular win, the shootout is a gimmick and isn't more important than a normal 4-3 win, or a 4-3 win in overtime. The shootout has been around for 8 years and this is the first time I have heard that it should count towards a HHOF career.

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05-29-2013, 05:43 PM
  #228
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Right now? No. It would be a crime to put him in over Barrasso or Vernon if he retired today.

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05-29-2013, 11:57 PM
  #229
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
It is because his won-loss record in the shootout - in which he has the most control over the outcome - is about where you would expect it to be for him. Therefore it is hardly a lock that he will win a shootout. It's a regular win, the shootout is a gimmick and isn't more important than a normal 4-3 win, or a 4-3 win in overtime. The shootout has been around for 8 years and this is the first time I have heard that it should count towards a HHOF career.
Sorry, but this is absolutely hilarious, Phil.

You're right that a goalie has more control over the outcome of a shootout than he does a hockey game. But you're missing the most important part, which is, unlike his impact on a hockey game (which is impossible to perfectly quantify with a number that would satisfy everyone), we know exactly what impact a goalie has on the results of a shootout: 50%. The only team effect is how much his teammates score at the other end, and that can be perfectly quantified and isolated. Yet, you still refuse to do so and pretend that W/L record is the most important thing, as opposed to giving his team the best possible chance to win.

So, if Lundqvist's teammates were average at scoring in the shootout, they would have an expected win% of .500 if they received average goaltending. But they've been receiving much better than average goaltending, and therefore have a win% of .600, which is 20% higher than they'd otherwise have. So Lundqvist makes them 20% more likely to win a shootout.

But oh, wait, I said IF Lundqvist's teammates were average at scoring in the shootout. But they're not. They're quite below average. Their 31.2 shooting percentage would only translate to a .475 shooting percentage if they had average goaltending. So their .600 win% is actually 26% better than it would otherwise be - thanks to Lundqvist.

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05-31-2013, 12:52 AM
  #230
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At this point in his career, no. He's had an excellent eight-year run, but if you're going in on eight years, then it has to be remarkable, ie, Ken Dryden or Bill Durnan.

If Lundqvist continues at the current clip - 35-40 wins a season, half a dozen shutouts, excellent play on a nightly basis - for another five or six years, then yeah, he'll get in.

Thirty wins in seven straight years is remarkable. It would have been eight straight if not for the lockout, but hey, he led the league in wins, so we'll give him a pass. He a workhorse who consistently rates among the best in the game. It's a very reassuring feeling as a player when your goalie is that good, and it allows you to take chances, although your coaches might not allow that to happen.

His playoffs haven't been sensational, but with the exception of his first season (when the Rangers were beleaguered), they've been very, very good. In 2012, he was outstanding.

There's still some work to be done, and he is 30, but the good news for Henrik is that he didn't come over till he was 23, and he's had just the one long playoff run in 2012, so he might not have the wear-and-tear of some other 30-year-old netminders, which means he should have several more years of elite play in front of him.

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05-31-2013, 03:35 AM
  #231
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3rd all-time in save percentage.

In the modern era, only hasek, Brodeur and Dryden have a lower GAA.

1st Ballot when he retires -- Cup or no Cup.

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06-01-2013, 11:21 AM
  #232
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Sorry, but this is absolutely hilarious, Phil.

You're right that a goalie has more control over the outcome of a shootout than he does a hockey game. But you're missing the most important part, which is, unlike his impact on a hockey game (which is impossible to perfectly quantify with a number that would satisfy everyone), we know exactly what impact a goalie has on the results of a shootout: 50%. The only team effect is how much his teammates score at the other end, and that can be perfectly quantified and isolated. Yet, you still refuse to do so and pretend that W/L record is the most important thing, as opposed to giving his team the best possible chance to win.

So, if Lundqvist's teammates were average at scoring in the shootout, they would have an expected win% of .500 if they received average goaltending. But they've been receiving much better than average goaltending, and therefore have a win% of .600, which is 20% higher than they'd otherwise have. So Lundqvist makes them 20% more likely to win a shootout.

But oh, wait, I said IF Lundqvist's teammates were average at scoring in the shootout. But they're not. They're quite below average. Their 31.2 shooting percentage would only translate to a .475 shooting percentage if they had average goaltending. So their .600 win% is actually 26% better than it would otherwise be - thanks to Lundqvist.
Your grasping at straws here, the guy wouldn't get in if his career ended tomorrow. On a projection, it looks like he is on the right course. As for shootouts, I doubt the HHOF committee will even take that into consideration when all is said and done. You're overanalyzing the situation too much here. The results are what counts the most here and they aren't mind boggling. They aren't going to be looking at save percentage during a shootout at all. If anything they'll look at the W/L record in the shootout because that is what matters the most, and I doubt they'll even touch on that one.

You seem to think Lundqvist has been left for dead his whole career. He has had the best shot blocking team in front of him for a while now. From an offensive standpoint he could stand to earn more goals from his team, but the defense in front of him for his career has been just fine.

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06-01-2013, 02:34 PM
  #233
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Your grasping at straws here, the guy wouldn't get in if his career ended tomorrow. On a projection, it looks like he is on the right course. As for shootouts, I doubt the HHOF committee will even take that into consideration when all is said and done. You're overanalyzing the situation too much here. The results are what counts the most here and they aren't mind boggling. They aren't going to be looking at save percentage during a shootout at all. If anything they'll look at the W/L record in the shootout because that is what matters the most, and I doubt they'll even touch on that one.

You seem to think Lundqvist has been left for dead his whole career. He has had the best shot blocking team in front of him for a while now. From an offensive standpoint he could stand to earn more goals from his team, but the defense in front of him for his career has been just fine.
The fact is that on this board, Barrasso and Vachon are usually considered the best eligible goalies not yet in the HHOF. And if Lundqvist hasn't surpassed them yet, he's at least come close

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06-01-2013, 04:01 PM
  #234
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He's certainly making a case.

5x Vezina Finalist, 1x Vezina Winner
1x Hart Finalist
1x Lindsay Finalist
1x 1st All Star Team
All Rookie Team
Olympic Gold Medal

On top of that, he will likely finish with close to 500 wins in his career (he'll top 300 next year and still will have another good 5-6 years in him).

He might not be a first ballot hall of famer, but he will be considered certainly. Even if he doesn't win a Cup.

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06-01-2013, 04:22 PM
  #235
Dennis Bonvie
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He's certainly making a case.

5x Vezina Finalist, 1x Vezina Winner
1x Hart Finalist
1x Lindsay Finalist
1x 1st All Star Team
All Rookie Team
Olympic Gold Medal

On top of that, he will likely finish with close to 500 wins in his career (he'll top 300 next year and still will have another good 5-6 years in him).

He might not be a first ballot hall of famer, but he will be considered certainly. Even if he doesn't win a Cup.

When that time comes, he'll likely get in.

But if he quit today, I don't think he'd make it.

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06-01-2013, 04:46 PM
  #236
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Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
When that time comes, he'll likely get in.

But if he quit today, I don't think he'd make it.
And neither should he. Good for Lunqvist I don't think it's very likely for him to decline heavily starting next year, because it doesn't take a lot for him to get in if he plays at a good level for another bunch of years.

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06-01-2013, 06:11 PM
  #237
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
The fact is that on this board, Barrasso and Vachon are usually considered the best eligible goalies not yet in the HHOF. And if Lundqvist hasn't surpassed them yet, he's at least come close
He hasn't surpassed them yet because Luongo may not have yet either and Luongo has had the better career in my opinion. But if or when he does surpass the Vachon/Barrasso combo as we can see that still is far from a lock. Neither of those guys are in yet. It is very hard to get enshrined as a goalie. I really don't know what else they expected or wanted Vachon to do, but he's not there yet. As for Barrasso, you think a goalie that finished top 3 in Vezina voting 5 times with a pair of Cups is in by now but he isn't. I am just saying it is extremely hard to get in there and Lundqvist by no means has had a career where he gets the benefit of the doubt.

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06-01-2013, 11:15 PM
  #238
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Your grasping at straws here, the guy wouldn't get in if his career ended tomorrow.
Changing goalposts again, Phil. Note that this leg of the conversation is about whether his shootout performance adds to his legacy. And of course it does. Whether that legacy is currently good enough for the hall, is a much tougher question to answer.

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On a projection, it looks like he is on the right course. As for shootouts, I doubt the HHOF committee will even take that into consideration when all is said and done. You're overanalyzing the situation too much here.
Sigh, any analysis I do is always called over-analyzing by you. If only I knew what just the right amount of analysis was.

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The results are what counts the most here and they aren't mind boggling.
Best shootout goalie of his generation, and everyone knows it.

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They aren't going to be looking at save percentage during a shootout at all. If anything they'll look at the W/L record in the shootout because that is what matters the most, and I doubt they'll even touch on that one.
well then, they are pretty stupid, aren't they?

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You seem to think Lundqvist has been left for dead his whole career. He has had the best shot blocking team in front of him for a while now. From an offensive standpoint he could stand to earn more goals from his team, but the defense in front of him for his career has been just fine.
You mean in 2006-2008 when Michal Roszival was his #1 defenseman?

The same defense has played in front of ten other goalies during his time in New York and he has outperformed the other goalies on his team by a wider margin than any other top goalie since the lockout, and by a good wide margin too (see the info posted in this thread). So if you think it's his team, you still have a lot of explaining to do.

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06-02-2013, 02:07 AM
  #239
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Changing goalposts again, Phil. Note that this leg of the conversation is about whether his shootout performance adds to his legacy. And of course it does. Whether that legacy is currently good enough for the hall, is a much tougher question to answer.
You are giving a lot of praise to a gimmick. Brodeur, Lundqvist, Fleury and Hedberg top the list of the best shootout goalies from a winning percentage perspective. Who is one of the worst? Cam Ward. Strange isn't it. Who had a perfect shootout record in 2007-'08? Mathieu Garon was 10-0. Not bad eh, but then again his team didn't make the playoffs and he was under .500 in games decided in the regular season. Quick went 10-0 in the shootout in 2011. Not bad. But last year in his most successful year up to this point (2011-'12) he had a poor shootout record of 6-8 with just a .660 save %. Yet he almost wins the Vezina and to top it off he wins the Cup and the Conn Smythe. So what is the bottom line? There are good goalies not very good in the shootout and there are bad goalies very good at it. The entire body of work of a goalie is what is judged.

The HHOF is very much an old boys club as it is when it comes to letting in certain players, especially goalies. Now, I don't know this anymore than you since neither of us are privy to what goes on in those meetings but when all is said and done do you believe that panel is going to be all that impressed with Lundqvist's shootout stats, that is if they even bother to look at them? They'll see that he was near the top in his career and won't flinch over it because that's exactly where everyone expects Lundqvist to be. If it isn't used to help a guy win a Vezina then it won't be helped for his HHOF career. Stop a penalty shot in the postseason at a critical time, now THAT will garner more attention.

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Best shootout goalie of his generation, and everyone knows it.
Jussi Jokinen is arguably the best shootout shooter of his generation. And it would shock you to see the shootout record of some very fine players of this generation. It isn't always pretty. Look up Steve Stamkos.

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The same defense has played in front of ten other goalies during his time in New York and he has outperformed the other goalies on his team by a wider margin than any other top goalie since the lockout, and by a good wide margin too (see the info posted in this thread). So if you think it's his team, you still have a lot of explaining to do.
It isn't his team. He's a fine goalie in his own right. But he was being described as a goalie who doesn't get any support from anywhere.

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06-02-2013, 07:15 PM
  #240
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Since the lockout, a period of 8 years, he has been the best goalie in the world for that time period, or at the very least in the top 3 PERIOD.

How many goalies in the HHOF can say that? Not all of them I bet and it is in a fully integrated 30 team NHL were it's going to be harder to stand out year in year out, especially with the Salary Cap.

Anyone saying he needs any more than 1 or more years at this level or close to it are seriously setting a different standard for the HHOF for Henrik than for players in the past.

Even if the King were done it would look pretty weird to have Giacomin in and Lundqvist out.

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06-02-2013, 09:01 PM
  #241
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Since the lockout, a period of 8 years, he has been the best goalie in the world for that time period, or at the very least in the top 3 PERIOD.

How many goalies in the HHOF can say that? Not all of them I bet and it is in a fully integrated 30 team NHL were it's going to be harder to stand out year in year out, especially with the Salary Cap.

Anyone saying he needs any more than 1 or more years at this level or close to it are seriously setting a different standard for the HHOF for Henrik than for players in the past.

Even if the King were done it would look pretty weird to have Giacomin in and Lundqvist out.
I think his prime is certainly good enough as is, though he probably needs some longevity based on the HHOF standards for goalies. I'm a big proponent of consistency with goalies and that's where he's shined. Even if people want to question if he can raise his game in the playoffs, he's still very good and always giving his team a chance to win. There really aren't too many questions about him like the other goalies post-lockout (meltdowns for Lu, regular season consistency and lack of GP for Thomas, etc)

The last part sparks and interesting debate as well. Is he the best goalie in Rangers history now?

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06-02-2013, 10:12 PM
  #242
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
You are giving a lot of praise to a gimmick. Brodeur, Lundqvist, Fleury and Hedberg top the list of the best shootout goalies from a winning percentage perspective. Who is one of the worst? Cam Ward. Strange isn't it. Who had a perfect shootout record in 2007-'08? Mathieu Garon was 10-0. Not bad eh, but then again his team didn't make the playoffs and he was under .500 in games decided in the regular season. Quick went 10-0 in the shootout in 2011. Not bad. But last year in his most successful year up to this point (2011-'12) he had a poor shootout record of 6-8 with just a .660 save %. Yet he almost wins the Vezina and to top it off he wins the Cup and the Conn Smythe. So what is the bottom line? There are good goalies not very good in the shootout and there are bad goalies very good at it. The entire body of work of a goalie is what is judged.
More gold.

"I don't like what the big sample size is telling me, so here are some cherrypicked small samples"

And I agree it's a gimmick, but real points in the standings are up for grabs; therefore, a goalie's performance in them is very important.

It is one piece of their body of work. No one ever said their entire body of work should be judged.

Just get this over with and admit you're wrong about his shutout record being meaningless.

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The HHOF is very much an old boys club as it is when it comes to letting in certain players, especially goalies. Now, I don't know this anymore than you since neither of us are privy to what goes on in those meetings but when all is said and done do you believe that panel is going to be all that impressed with Lundqvist's shootout stats, that is if they even bother to look at them? They'll see that he was near the top in his career and won't flinch over it because that's exactly where everyone expects Lundqvist to be. If it isn't used to help a guy win a Vezina then it won't be helped for his HHOF career. Stop a penalty shot in the postseason at a critical time, now THAT will garner more attention.
We don't even know if they look at any stats at all, and I don't really care what happens in the meetings. The question was whether his shootout record adds to his legacy, and it does, end of story.

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Jussi Jokinen is arguably the best shootout shooter of his generation. And it would shock you to see the shootout record of some very fine players of this generation. It isn't always pretty. Look up Steve Stamkos.
point?

a skater has a much less than 50% impact on a shootout.

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06-02-2013, 11:03 PM
  #243
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Sigh, any analysis I do is always called over-analyzing by you. If only I knew what just the right amount of analysis was.
With Phil (over the past few years I have been here) it seems to be very simple:

If they won the Cup/medal/game they were great and got er done.

If they did not win the Cup/medal/game they were lacking or choked.

And it counts double for goaltenders.

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06-03-2013, 12:49 AM
  #244
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With Phil (over the past few years I have been here) it seems to be very simple:

If they won the Cup/medal/game they were great and got er done.

If they did not win the Cup/medal/game they were lacking or choked.

And it counts double for goaltenders.
Don't forget minus points if they jumped to the WHA or were part of lockouts we can't pro rate those guys as they are part of the problem.

But in a way Phil does represent the way the HHOF thinks, to a degree, they sure hold winning SC higher than they should for secondary type of players, Clark Gillies and Glenn Anderson come to mind.

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06-03-2013, 05:30 PM
  #245
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Since the lockout, a period of 8 years, he has been the best goalie in the world for that time period, or at the very least in the top 3 PERIOD.

How many goalies in the HHOF can say that? Not all of them I bet and it is in a fully integrated 30 team NHL were it's going to be harder to stand out year in year out, especially with the Salary Cap.

Anyone saying he needs any more than 1 or more years at this level or close to it are seriously setting a different standard for the HHOF for Henrik than for players in the past.

Even if the King were done it would look pretty weird to have Giacomin in and Lundqvist out.
Why would that look weird?

Even if Giacomin retired after 8 seasons he would have 2 first team and 3 second team all-star selection and one Vezina.

Lundqvist has one Vezina and one all-star selection.

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06-03-2013, 05:42 PM
  #246
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Yes he should be. You have to realize how difficult it is for goalies to sustain playing at a high level now with the amount of competition and pressure. We got used to Roy/Belfour/Hasek/Broduer and a few other established guys who couldn't be moved and played like stars year in and out. Since the lockout, this hasn't been the case. There are some players like Cam Ward who have been starters without challenge but none have doing it as well as Lundqvist (Broduer you have to remember in recent years is not the guy he used to be). The consistent Vezina votes are the best proof. If Lundqvist can't get into the HOF then I don't see any goalie to have their peak in the last 5-6 years get in and it would be ridiculous to say that not a single goalie to become notable since the lockout is not a HOFer. I continuously hear the argument about how goalies are getting better, if they are getting better then shouldn't at least one of them since 2006 get in? (Broduer is really a 90s/early 00s goalie).

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06-03-2013, 06:03 PM
  #247
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Yup.

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Old
06-03-2013, 07:19 PM
  #248
Big Phil
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Even if the King were done it would look pretty weird to have Giacomin in and Lundqvist out.
Not at the moment it wouldn't. Giacomin had 5 straight years where he was a season end all-star and took a team to the final in 1972. Lundqvist probably surpasses him, but as for me, not today.

[QUOTE=seventieslord;66932147]More gold.

"I don't like what the big sample size is telling me, so here are some cherrypicked small samples"

And I agree it's a gimmick, but real points in the standings are up for grabs; therefore, a goalie's performance in them is very important.

It is one piece of their body of work. No one ever said their entire body of work should be judged.

Just get this over with and admit you're wrong about his shutout record being meaningless.

We don't even know if they look at any stats at all, and I don't really care what happens in the meetings. The question was whether his shootout record adds to his legacy, and it does, end of story.
[QUOTE]


I'm telling you, you are putting the shootout on way too high of a pedestal. Unless Lundqvist starts performing in the postseason at a higher rate he is going to have a big wart on his resume that will only be filled by multiple Vezinas. That's what the HHOF will look at because the one time the HHOF is actually consistent is when it comes down to goalies. I didn't make up the rules, but they are strict with them. There is hardly any seperation from a goalie like Fleury or Brodeur in the shootout for them to give that a lot of credit. The HHOF will be looking at much bigger fish to fry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
With Phil (over the past few years I have been here) it seems to be very simple:

If they won the Cup/medal/game they were great and got er done.

If they did not win the Cup/medal/game they were lacking or choked.

And it counts double for goaltenders.
That's a little too cut and dry don't you think. Chris Osgood won three Cups (one as a backup) and I wouldn't put him in there. Curtis Joseph won none and I put him in over Osgood and even Joseph has his warts. My biggest thing is not winning as much as the "contribution" to winning. Joseph no doubt had his choke moments and they didn't look pretty when they happened. Mike Vernon is another example too although he did reach the finals 4 times. The most important thing is to see how a goalie performed win or lose. How it happens is often more important than how many times it happened.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Don't forget minus points if they jumped to the WHA or were part of lockouts we can't pro rate those guys as they are part of the problem.

But in a way Phil does represent the way the HHOF thinks, to a degree, they sure hold winning SC higher than they should for secondary type of players, Clark Gillies and Glenn Anderson come to mind.
Well I wouldn't put Gillies in there in the first place. Did I quote that at some time because I must be getting old, I certainly don't remember that. Anderson I am fine with being in there because of his elite contributions to the Cups, not just Cup counting. If that's the case Kevin Lowe is in there. Anderson clearly had the rep of a money player for a reason. Couple his good regular seasons and at least one Smythe worthy run and I don't know how you leave him out. Gillies shouldn't be in there. And yeah, I will reiterate that you can't reward a player for things he didn't even do because if that is the case you are getting into a low standard type of territory. A HHOF player will deserve to get in if he is truly a HHOF player, lockout or not. WHA or not. Mark Howe, Dave Keon didn't need any help from an inferior league. Only one player, J-C Tremblay, may have been hurt by bolting to the WHA. Even then, my thought is his NHL career is good enough. I'll stick to the best league in the world and their accomplishments ON the ice, rather than a projection.

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Old
06-04-2013, 02:53 AM
  #249
Morgoth Bauglir
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kloparren View Post
I continuously hear the argument about how goalies are getting better, if they are getting better then shouldn't at least one of them since 2006 get in?
Maybe because the argument is specious and they aren't getting better. Save percentages are going up but it's looking more and more like using that as a gauge for goaltenders is becoming increasingly problematical: When Brian Elliott leads the league in save percentage last year I think it's pretty clear something isn't passing the sniff test.

Apart from that, I really think we should be letting active players at least reach past-prime status before we start nominating them for the Hall Of Fame.

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Old
06-04-2013, 08:44 AM
  #250
Mike Farkas
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Goaltending isn't getting better. It has plateaued. It's "average" goalie might be better than it was some years ago. But to say players are better at the position now is generally incorrect in my opinion. Save percentage is going up because of adjustments in team defense and other factors, not because there are better goaltenders today.

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