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Dion Phaneuf

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Old
06-03-2013, 08:40 AM
  #26
AK1990
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I've pondered on what to do with Dion a lot lately, and it's not because we need to move the guy. In fact, it all depends on the offer.

Nonis is right in saying I don't like the word "untouchable" because if an offer comes in that brings great value, you do it. Regardless of the player. (Obviously, he doesn't have the likes of Crosby, Stammer, Tavares etc.) but with what the Leafs have, he's right with that blanket statement. No one should be "untouchable"

What bugs me the most is how people are ready to linch Dion for his performance in the playoffs. Yes, he had a bad pinch that lead to the game winning goal & yes Dion didn't clear the net on the game tying goal. However, Most fail to see how BADLY O'Byrne played the 2 on 1. He backed up into Reimer and not only didn't commit to taking the pass away he backed into Reimer!!!! (I'm a goalie) and the ONE rule every goalie tells their Defense is if there is an odd man rush TAKE AWAY THE PASS!!!!!! every goalie should be able to make a positional save if he knows he doesn't have to worry about the 2nd player coming in. However O'Byrne didn't do that and made Reimer stay deep and Krejci scored an easy goal. Yet, Dion is blamed.

The second fatal mistake that lead to the tying of game 7. Does no one notice whose infront of the net? ITS F***ING ZEDENO CHARA! the biggest player in the NHL. I'm sorry I can only think of two people that could have moved him (Pronger & Scott Stevens) both retired. Maybe, Weber but we aren't Nashville...yet, everyone yells and screams why didn't he clear the net...GOODLUCK. OH yea, try moving him after playing half of the game cause Carlyle doesn't have anyone else who he can really rely on for those heavy minutes. Also, play those hard minutes against the other teams best players all series, oh yea, as well during the entire abbreviated season. Oh that's right NO ONE CAN.

Dion is actually an amazing hockey player and a perfect fit for Toronto. He shouldn't be blamed for playing Hall of Fame Minutes. He's not a HofF'er, he's playing minutes that the greatest players in the league do. There's a reason, cause for Carlyle he can't use anyone else more then he already does. It's a talent problem. That's not Dion's fault. It's a hole that NONIS needs to fix... it is up to Carlyle to put Dion out there (NOT SAYING ITS CARLYLE'S FAULT...but Without Phaneuf we don't have anyone who can eat those minutes). So rather then trading Dion for nothing (which is the most ridiculous statement I've ever heard)...Nonis should be finding someone who can eat = minutes to him or better yet, he should get 2 players (a #2 RHD for Dion & and #6 RHD).

Phaneuf/ _________
Gardiner/Franson
Fraser/____________

Gunnarsson is great & I'd like him on my team but I'd rather 2 RHD & Gunnarsson is on a affordable deal and is still controllable with his RFA status.

again, YOU MOVE DION IF THE DEAL IS GOING TO IMPROVE YOUR CLUB....But remember, that will come at a cost...most likely the loss of a playoff spot next year. So would you rather EDM's 7th overall? or playoffs. That's what this thread should be about...


Last edited by AK1990: 06-03-2013 at 08:49 AM.
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06-03-2013, 08:49 AM
  #27
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Hard to picture a scenario where Phaneuf is being traded.

The only realistic reason would be if it became obvious he didn't want to resign here.

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06-03-2013, 08:54 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Arik Kristal View Post
The second fatal mistake that lead to the tying of game 7. Does no one notice whose infront of the net? ITS F***ING ZEDENO CHARA! the biggest player in the NHL. I'm sorry I can only think of two people that could have moved him (Pronger & Scott Stevens) both retired. Maybe, Weber but we aren't Nashville...yet, everyone yells and screams why didn't he clear the net...GOODLUCK. OH yea, try moving him after playing half of the game cause Carlyle doesn't have anyone else who he can really rely on for those heavy minutes. Also, play those hard minutes against the other teams best players all series, oh yea, as well during the entire abbreviated season. Oh that's right NO ONE CAN.
I don't want to see Phaneuf traded.

But one of my BIGGEST pet peeves with the guy, is that he NEVER ties up players sticks in front of the net. He gives dinky little cross checks, and tries to hit them, etc.

ESPECIALLY if it's Chara in front of the net who is too big to knock over, tie up the guys damn stick. I've seen countless goals that could have been prevented by simply lifting a guys stick, batting a guys stick out of the way, pulling a stick down, etc.

His defensive play comes from his physical nature, which is good, but he has to learn to play smart hockey as well. Hitting someone isnt' always the best solution. Smarter players find multiple ways to handle a situation like that.

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06-03-2013, 08:59 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by 416Leafer View Post
I don't want to see Phaneuf traded.

But one of my BIGGEST pet peeves with the guy, is that he NEVER ties up players sticks in front of the net. He gives dinky little cross checks, and tries to hit them, etc.

ESPECIALLY if it's Chara in front of the net who is too big to knock over, tie up the guys damn stick. I've seen countless goals that could have been prevented by simply lifting a guys stick, batting a guys stick out of the way, pulling a stick down, etc.

His defensive play comes from his physical nature, which is good, but he has to learn to play smart hockey as well. Hitting someone isnt' always the best solution. Smarter players find multiple ways to handle a situation like that.
my point is that if Chara doesn't want his stick to be lift, it won't be. I don't think anyone in the NHL can do that to Chara except the two retired players I've mentioned. Maybe Dion could if it was the beginning of the game...defs not at the end. He's gassed, the entire club was. Find players who can take away 5-7.5 minutes a game from Dion and then see how amazing he is. HE SHOULDN'T BE PLAYING 28-32 MINUTES A GAME!!!!!

Its a lack of talent on the team thats the problem...We shouldn't take the best piece away from the D to plug a hole up front. If we land a #1 centre from Dion (either a high draft pick, or a roster player)...all of our threads will be WE NEED A BIG PHYSICAL DEFENSEMAN WHO CAN PUT UP POINTS AND EAT 25+ MINUTES. We have that already. We need to build on that.

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06-03-2013, 09:05 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by DougGilmour93 View Post
What would your team offer for his services?
He's Big, tough, talented, and plays a hard game. He was great against a very good Bruins team, Checking guys like Lucic and Horton. The Leafs would be insane to trade him. The loss to the Bruins was a goalie collapse in 3 of the 4 losses, not an issue with Phaneuf.

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06-03-2013, 09:21 AM
  #31
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Your seriously gonna spew this ******** who was the revolving door of D? By my recollection it was Beauchemin (who he played quiet well with), Gunnarsson (who has been suitable), struggling Schenn, and minor league Kostka, Aulie, Komisarek. Not quiet the star cast of partners
First of all, I never said that any of Dion's defensive partnerships over the past few years were legitimate top-pairing material, nor did I make such clainm of Dion himself.

Yes, he's had some pretty poor partnerships during his time with the Leafs, but that doesn't excuse the fact he hasn't been able to develop any significant amount of chemistry with any of his previus partners, especially when most (or all) of the players you've mentioned have found the necessary chemistry to form a solid partnership with someone else (either while still being a Leaf or elsewhere).

Take Mike Komisarek, for example. Since becomng a Leaf, no-one would even think (after watching his brutal ploay) that he was once capable of being paired with a legitimate top-pairing defenceman (which, as we all know, happened in Montreal when he was paired with Andrei Markov). Yet, in Toronto, Komisarek was absolutely dreadful when he was paired with Phaneuf (and pretty much anyone else). Why? Komisarek's skill level hadn't changed; the only possible reason was a distinct lack of chemistry.

My point is, Dion just hasn't really found the chemistry that's needed to form a strong partnership regardless of who he's been paired with since he became a Leaf.

Sure, he's had some small measure of success with Gunnarsson this season.. I'm not denying that. But, if you look closely enough, you can tell that the connection between Phaneuf and Gunnarsson isn't as strong as it appears.

Also, look at a couple of the other defensive pairings the Leafs have recently put together that have shown strong chemistry:

- Gardiner and Franson (this past play-off run)
- Franson and Frasor (this past regular season)

.. and I know there have been other solid pairings in the recent past as well. The reason why Franson was a part of two solid pairings was because he was able to quickly develop a strong chemistry between himself and his two defensive partners. The same just cannot be said of Phaneuf

Bottom line: Dion's had ample opportunities to develop a strong connection and, to date, has utterly failed to do so since becoming a Leaf. This CANNOT continue if the Leafs expect to improve as a team going forward. Since searching for a complementary partner for Dion has failed miserably, the only course of action that remains for the Leafs is to trade Dion.

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06-03-2013, 09:32 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by EucaLEAFtys View Post
First of all, I never said that any of Dion's defensive partnerships over the past few years were legitimate top-pairing material, nor did I make such clainm of Dion himself.

Yes, he's had some pretty poor partnerships during his time with the Leafs, but that doesn't excuse the fact he hasn't been able to develop any significant amount of chemistry with any of his previus partners, especially when most (or all) of the players you've mentioned have found the necessary chemistry to form a solid partnership with someone else (either while still being a Leaf or elsewhere).

Take Mike Komisarek, for example. Since becomng a Leaf, no-one would even think (after watching his brutal ploay) that he was once capable of being paired with a legitimate top-pairing defenceman (which, as we all know, happened in Montreal when he was paired with Andrei Markov). Yet, in Toronto, Komisarek was absolutely dreadful when he was paired with Phaneuf (and pretty much anyone else). Why? Komisarek's skill level hadn't changed; the only possible reason was a distinct lack of chemistry.

My point is, Dion just hasn't really found the chemistry that's needed to form a strong partnership regardless of who he's been paired with since he became a Leaf.

Sure, he's had some small measure of success with Gunnarsson this season.. I'm not denying that. But, if you look closely enough, you can tell that the connection between Phaneuf and Gunnarsson isn't as strong as it appears.

Also, look at a couple of the other defensive pairings the Leafs have recently put together that have shown strong chemistry:

- Gardiner and Franson (this past play-off run)
- Franson and Frasor (this past regular season)

.. and I know there have been other solid pairings in the recent past as well. The reason why Franson was a part of two solid pairings was because he was able to quickly develop a strong chemistry between himself and his two defensive partners. The same just cannot be said of Phaneuf

Bottom line: Dion's had ample opportunities to develop a strong connection and, to date, has utterly failed to do so since becoming a Leaf. This CANNOT continue if the Leafs expect to improve as a team going forward. Since searching for a complementary partner for Dion has failed miserably, the only course of action that remains for the Leafs is to trade Dion.
Your points are good, but you leave out one very important point: Dion has not had a #1 goalie behind him. When Reimer played well this season (most of it he did, until the playoffs, when he - let's leave that alone) Dion looked really good, and played like a Norris candidate. Confidence in the goalie is very important too.

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06-03-2013, 09:56 AM
  #33
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People suggesting that moving Dion will in any way help Toronto continue their development are not thinking things through.

1 - This young team needs to keep moving forward. Moving Dion would send us back to the lotto in the 10-15 pick range and there is a strong chance any players acquired won't change duplicate Dion's impact.

2 - Moving Dion would mean we have ZERO top pairing defenseman, and our pipeline currently only has one (Reilly) who projects to be on the top pairing eventually (2-3 years away from that).. and as much as I like Reilly, he doesn't provide Dion's physicality and (again) we don't have anyone in our system who does.

If the Leafs wanted to blow everything up and build around JVR, Kadri, Gards, Reilly and Reims, plummeting back into the NHL basement for another 3-4 years... then moving Dion makes sense.

You'll likely find that Kessel will walk and Lupul would asked to be traded leaving us with only two top 6 forwards... given our current prospect pool (bunch of 3rd/4th liners) it will be some time before their numbers/impact can be replaced.

Trading our Captain is a signal that the rest of the team needs to be scrapped outside of Reims and the guys currently on the club that are 23 and younger.

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06-03-2013, 09:57 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by LEAFANFORLIFE23 View Post
Yes HE is the problem lets ignore the GARBAGE that he's had with the likes of Kostka, Holzer, Komi etc he's played with.

I don't care who it is be it Phaneuf, Chara, Weber, PK, EK, Letang you name the guy, don't care who it is, you put them with the ******** that Phaneuf, has had for partners they WILL suffer.

Because NOBODY absolutely ****ing NOBODY is good enough to make Holzer, Komi Kostka,etc look good, the man that can do that does not exist.
Read post #31 for a response to yours.

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06-03-2013, 10:06 AM
  #35
Dangles McGavin
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What about something like

Dion Phaneuf + Kulemin/Frattin + 3rd/2nd

for

Keith Yandle

Or something of that ilk

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06-03-2013, 10:14 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by EucaLEAFtys View Post
First of all, I never said that any of Dion's defensive partnerships over the past few years were legitimate top-pairing material, nor did I make such clainm of Dion himself.

Yes, he's had some pretty poor partnerships during his time with the Leafs, but that doesn't excuse the fact he hasn't been able to develop any significant amount of chemistry with any of his previus partners, especially when most (or all) of the players you've mentioned have found the necessary chemistry to form a solid partnership with someone else (either while still being a Leaf or elsewhere).

Take Mike Komisarek, for example. Since becomng a Leaf, no-one would even think (after watching his brutal ploay) that he was once capable of being paired with a legitimate top-pairing defenceman (which, as we all know, happened in Montreal when he was paired with Andrei Markov). Yet, in Toronto, Komisarek was absolutely dreadful when he was paired with Phaneuf (and pretty much anyone else). Why? Komisarek's skill level hadn't changed; the only possible reason was a distinct lack of chemistry.

My point is, Dion just hasn't really found the chemistry that's needed to form a strong partnership regardless of who he's been paired with since he became a Leaf.

Sure, he's had some small measure of success with Gunnarsson this season.. I'm not denying that. But, if you look closely enough, you can tell that the connection between Phaneuf and Gunnarsson isn't as strong as it appears.

Also, look at a couple of the other defensive pairings the Leafs have recently put together that have shown strong chemistry:

- Gardiner and Franson (this past play-off run)
- Franson and Frasor (this past regular season)

.. and I know there have been other solid pairings in the recent past as well. The reason why Franson was a part of two solid pairings was because he was able to quickly develop a strong chemistry between himself and his two defensive partners. The same just cannot be said of Phaneuf

Bottom line: Dion's had ample opportunities to develop a strong connection and, to date, has utterly failed to do so since becoming a Leaf. This CANNOT continue if the Leafs expect to improve as a team going forward. Since searching for a complementary partner for Dion has failed miserably, the only course of action that remains for the Leafs is to trade Dion.
Or trade for or sign someone for him to play wirh.

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06-03-2013, 10:23 AM
  #37
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You say all of that, but all I see when I watch the Leafs (which is a lot as a Canadian) is Dion out there making mistake after mistake. If you keep changing partners with no improvement, you have to start considering the common factor as being the problem.
Every partner he has had has been an in house option and clearly what we have in house isn't good enough unless Paul Ranger can do it. Otherwise go get somebody not all options have been explored

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06-03-2013, 10:25 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Dangles McGavin View Post
What about something like

Dion Phaneuf + Kulemin/Frattin + 3rd/2nd

for

Keith Yandle

Or something of that ilk

I'd do it but it still leaves us in the same situation .

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06-03-2013, 10:36 AM
  #39
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Your points are good, but you leave out one very important point: Dion has not had a #1 goalie behind him. When Reimer played well this season (most of it he did, until the playoffs, when he - let's leave that alone) Dion looked really good, and played like a Norris candidate. Confidence in the goalie is very important too.
While having confidence in one's goalie is timportant, it doesn't excuse the fact that Dion couldn't establish any strong chemistry throughout the entire season, whereas Franson, Frasor, and Gardiner were all able to do so while playing in front of the same goalies!

If other players on the same team can develop solid chemistry amongst themselves with little difficulty, then why can't Phaneuf do the same, given how many chances he's had so far as a Leaf?

It seems pretty clear to me that Dion himself is the reason why he hasn't found any chemistry with his Leaf defence-mates (both past and present). Even Liles and O'Byrne once had chemistry with each other when they both played in Colorado (though not so much recently in Toronto, but still..).

Bottom line: After considering all of his overall performance as a Leaf, factoring in his current cap hit, and his inability to form chemistry with his defence-mates, it is abundantly clear that Dion needs a new team to play for.

The question is: Who would be willing to take him and what would said team be willing to pay? As long as it's a respectable return, I don't care where he ends up (assuming he does get traded, of course).

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06-03-2013, 11:46 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by veedubn1 View Post
People suggesting that moving Dion will in any way help Toronto continue their development are not thinking things through.

1 - This young team needs to keep moving forward. Moving Dion would send us back to the lotto in the 10-15 pick range and there is a strong chance any players acquired won't change duplicate Dion's impact.

2 - Moving Dion would mean we have ZERO top pairing defenseman, and our pipeline currently only has one (Reilly) who projects to be on the top pairing eventually (2-3 years away from that).. and as much as I like Reilly, he doesn't provide Dion's physicality and (again) we don't have anyone in our system who does.

If the Leafs wanted to blow everything up and build around JVR, Kadri, Gards, Reilly and Reims, plummeting back into the NHL basement for another 3-4 years... then moving Dion makes sense.

You'll likely find that Kessel will walk and Lupul would asked to be traded leaving us with only two top 6 forwards... given our current prospect pool (bunch of 3rd/4th liners) it will be some time before their numbers/impact can be replaced.

Trading our Captain is a signal that the rest of the team needs to be scrapped outside of Reims and the guys currently on the club that are 23 and younger.
Sometimes a team has to take a step or two backward in order to move a few steps forward, and to be quite honest about it, I have absolutely no problem with that. The team can still compete without Dion, provided they can put together (and roll) three solid defence-pairings who can effectively play Carlyle's defensive system. They can then later integrate youngsters like Rielly when they are completely ready to join the NHL roster.

Teams have found some measure of success in the past without having any legitimate top-pairing defencemen on them. To compensate for this, such teams implemented and executed a strong defensive system (the very same defensive system the Leafs have already begun to play). All the Leafs need to do (as stated above) is put together three solid defensive pairings and properly execute the system on a nightly basis. They don't need Phaneuf for that, but they do need Dion to trade for the high-end prospects the Leafs so desperately need right now to improve their team down the road.

Trading Dion would not signal a total re-building of the team just because he's currently the Captain of the Leafs. The captaincy can be given to someone else prior to Dion being traded, thus the team wouldn't skip a beat going forward.

The point is, the Leafs can compete (and succeed) without Dion; they'll have to sooner or later). I would just rather see it happen sooner rather than later.

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06-03-2013, 11:57 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by LEAFANFORLIFE23 View Post
Or trade for or sign someone for him to play wirh.
And if both those options are tried and still result in failre, what then?

At some point you either have to fish or cut bait and I believe now is the best time for the Leafs to "cut bait" (that being, trade Dion).

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06-03-2013, 12:08 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by EucaLEAFtys View Post
And if both those options are tried and still result in failre, what then?

At some point you either have to fish or cut bait and I believe now is the best time for the Leafs to "cut bait" (that being, trade Dion).
What kind of return do you think the Leafs would get for a one year rental?

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06-03-2013, 12:30 PM
  #43
veedubn1
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Originally Posted by EucaLEAFtys View Post
Sometimes a team has to take a step or two backward in order to move a few steps forward, and to be quite honest about it, I have absolutely no problem with that. The team can still compete without Dion, provided they can put together (and roll) three solid defence-pairings who can effectively play Carlyle's defensive system. They can then later integrate youngsters like Rielly when they are completely ready to join the NHL roster.

Your suggested system only works if you have a bunch of #2 defensemen... considering we only have two of those one of those currently on the roster or ready to graduate from the farm, it's silly to suggest the above as a viable solution. The Leafs have been unable to find a single #2 defenseman to play with Dion... so I don't see how it's going to be any easier finding multiple #2's.

Teams have found some measure of success in the past without having any legitimate top-pairing defencemen on them. To compensate for this, such teams implemented and executed a strong defensive system (the very same defensive system the Leafs have already begun to play). All the Leafs need to do (as stated above) is put together three solid defensive pairings and properly execute the system on a nightly basis. They don't need Phaneuf for that, but they do need Dion to trade for the high-end prospects the Leafs so desperately need right now to improve their team down the road.

What teams are you talking about? Looking at the top 8 teams this year, they all have specific defenseman who shoulder much more responsibility than the rest of their group.

"Some measure of success" meaning not going anywhere in the playoffs. Look at the conference finalists this year, all four teams have a true stud (or two if you look at Chicago) to carry the load and play huge minutes.


Trading Dion would not signal a total re-building of the team just because he's currently the Captain of the Leafs. The captaincy can be given to someone else prior to Dion being traded, thus the team wouldn't skip a beat going forward.

It absolutely suggests a total rebuild when you trade your top defenseman for prospects (as you suggested). If I'm Phil Kessel, I'm likely going to walk if I see my team trading important vets for prospects who are 2-3 years away at best. If I'm Lupul, I'm asking for a trade because this team clearly has no intent on contending for the playoffs for the next 2-3 years.

The point is, the Leafs can compete (and succeed) without Dion; they'll have to sooner or later). I would just rather see it happen sooner rather than later.

No. Trading Dion would mean the Leafs will be competing later, much later. For your idea to be successful, Dion would need to be traded for two #2 guys who are already NHLers and not prospects.... trading Dion for anything else leaves this team short of the playoffs (but with enough talent to ensure we don't get top 5 picks) for the next few seasons.
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Old
06-03-2013, 12:37 PM
  #44
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Had this crazy idea. Sign a guy like Scuderi and we have a partner for Phaneuf. CRAZY RIGHT?

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06-03-2013, 01:05 PM
  #45
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What kind of return do you think the Leafs would get for a one year rental?
I'm sure the board would agree on a very fair package for this so called "one year rental"

See the Kaberle threads.

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06-03-2013, 01:10 PM
  #46
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While having confidence in one's goalie is timportant, it doesn't excuse the fact that Dion couldn't establish any strong chemistry throughout the entire season, whereas Franson, Frasor, and Gardiner were all able to do so while playing in front of the same goalies!

If other players on the same team can develop solid chemistry amongst themselves with little difficulty, then why can't Phaneuf do the same, given how many chances he's had so far as a Leaf?

It seems pretty clear to me that Dion himself is the reason why he hasn't found any chemistry with his Leaf defence-mates (both past and present). Even Liles and O'Byrne once had chemistry with each other when they both played in Colorado (though not so much recently in Toronto, but still..).

Bottom line: After considering all of his overall performance as a Leaf, factoring in his current cap hit, and his inability to form chemistry with his defence-mates, it is abundantly clear that Dion needs a new team to play for.

The question is: Who would be willing to take him and what would said team be willing to pay? As long as it's a respectable return, I don't care where he ends up (assuming he does get traded, of course).
It's a hell of a lot easier to build chemistry when you're dealing with 3rd line grinders, not the Stamkos, Tavares and Malkins of the league. How can you find chemistry with your partner when he can't even remotely keep up with top opponents?

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06-03-2013, 01:36 PM
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What kind of return do you think the Leafs would get for a one year rental?
I'm sure I've answered this question already in a previous post in this thread, but I'll answer it again.

It would probably depend on when the trade happens.

- Pre-draft or at the draft: a 2013 1st rounder and a high-end prospect.
- Anytime between this summer's draft and next season's trade deadline: a 2014 1st rounder and a high-end prospect.

The Leafs need more high-end prospects in their system and moving out Dion would certainly help to increase that area of their organization.

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06-03-2013, 01:50 PM
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It's a hell of a lot easier to build chemistry when you're dealing with 3rd line grinders, not the Stamkos, Tavares and Malkins of the league. How can you find chemistry with your partner when he can't even remotely keep up with top opponents?
Not necessariy.

Andrei Markov and Mike Komisarek were a great top-pairing, despite Komisarek's significantly lower talent level and "slower than silt" skating ability. I'm sure there are other examples from around the league where two players with disparate talent levels have formed a solid and cohesive defence pairing.

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06-03-2013, 01:58 PM
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comments in bold
Sorry.. I don't agree with what you added to my previous post and then bolded.

But that's alright.. I don't expect you (or anyone else, for that matter) to understand the objective opinions that I post.


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06-03-2013, 02:04 PM
  #50
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In my opinion the Leafs Defenese would be a lot worse if they traded Phaneuf, so I can't see why they would even be thinking about doing that.

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