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EXHIBITION SERIES: Champions 2012 Inglewood Jacks vs. 2013 Montreal Canadiens

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05-28-2013, 06:41 PM
  #1
VanIslander
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EXHIBITION SERIES: Champions 2012 Inglewood Jacks vs. 2013 Montreal Canadiens

ATD 2012 champions
Inglewood Jacks

coach Cecil Hart

Harry Watson - Wayne Gretzky (C) - Jari Kurri
Baldy Northcott - Pat Lafontaine - Alexander Mogilny
Ross Lonsberry - Rod Brind'Amour (A) - Ron Ellis
Murray Murdoch - Mike Richards - Bernie Nicholls

Brian Leetch - Moose Johnson (A)
George Boucher (A) - Jimmy Watson
Lloyd Cook - Kimmo Timonen

Tiny Thompson
Rogie Vachon

vs.

ATD 2013 champions
Montreal Canadiens

coach Tommy Gorman

Busher Jackson - Frank Boucher - Boris Mikhailov (C)
Sergei Kapustin - Jeremy Roenick - Helmut Balderis
Shane Doan - Don Luce - Tony Amonte
Joe Klukay - Troy Murray - Mario Tremblay

Raymond Bourque (A) - Art Coulter (A)
Gus Mortson - Jimmy Thomson
Bobby Rowe - Mathieu Schneider

Georges Vézina
Al Rollins

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05-28-2013, 06:42 PM
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VanIslander
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Two 32-team drafts, two entirely different rosters, two consecutive years.

An exhibition series during the off season.

All proceeds go to charity.

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05-29-2013, 04:10 AM
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That's an interesting idea, VanI. I'm game, but I think arrbez is retired.

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05-29-2013, 11:07 AM
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IMO, there was more parity in ATD2012 than in ATD2013, so even if Montreal wins this matchup (and I'm leaning towards Montreal), it has nothing to do with arrbez's drafting.

Anyway, this is how I see them stack up. Since these are both champions, I'm going to assume they have great chemistry unless noted otherwise.

First lines = ?

I think Mikhailov = Kurri, close enough.

So it's really whether you think the massive gap between Gretzky and Boucher is larger than the massive gap between Watson and Jackson. Really hard to compare.

Second lines = ?

I honestly don't know how to compare them. The dominant players seem to be Lafontaine and Balderis - both guys with short, dominant primes. Maybe a very small edge to Lafontaine, hard to say.

Roenick is clearly the 3rd best player on either line.

I like Kapustin in this role, but I'm not sure how he compares to Mogilny or Northcott to be honest. I think Northcott is probably the 4th best guy on either line when you consider overall games.

Lines don't seem that far apart. I think Montreal got their second line at better value, because I also think that Lafontaine was pretty crappy value where arrbez picked him.

Third line = advantage Inglewood

I think Lonsberry is the worst player on either line and something of a weak link, though not as much as Watson on a first line. But Brind'amour and Ellis are the two best even strength players on either line.

First pairing = advantage Montreal

Bourque is much better than Leetch. I personally think Johnson and Coulter are close, but I realize there are GMs here who like Moose Johnson a lot more than I do. Either way, if Moose is better than Coulter, it isn't by as much as Bourque is better than Leetch.

Second pairing =?

George Boucher is at least a little better than Jimmy Thomson, I think, but Gus Mortson is a lot better than Jimmy Watson. Tough to say.

Bottom pairing = advantage Inglewood

I remember thinking Inglewood had the best bottom pairing in ATD2012 and it was actually a pretty big advantage. I'm not entirely convinced that Bobby Rowe is as good as Lloyd Cook, but I am convinced it's close either way. But Timonen is a much better even strength player than Schneider.

Goaltending = advantage Montreal

I have Vezina as the 10th best of all time, and Thompson closer to 20.

Coaching

Interesting comparison of two contemporaries with completely different styles, both of which fit the teams they are coaching very well.

More information as to Gorman's greatness has been presented I think, so maybe he has a small advantage.

Special teams

For some reason, they aren't posted, but from what I remember, Inglewood has a better PP and Montreal a better PK.

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05-29-2013, 12:01 PM
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Inglewood is better up front, Montreal at the blueline and in the net.

Given that defense > offense is the ATD modus operandi, Montreal ends up winning in double OT.

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05-29-2013, 12:05 PM
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Originally Posted by MadArcand View Post
Inglewood is better up front, Montreal at the blueline and in the net.

Given that defense > offense is the ATD modus operandi, Montreal ends up winning in double OT.
Is Inglewood better up front? Does Gretzky's presence alone make them that? I dunno. Their third line is definitely better, at least

I also don't know why you keep pushing the defense > offense line in the ATD, when it's pretty clear that strength of top forward line is the first thing we as a group look at.

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05-29-2013, 01:02 PM
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Pat Lafontaine is a worse offensive player than you seem to think, Devil.

10-season VsX values for the modern players here:

40 Sergei Fedorov 77.9
41 Eric Lindros 77.8
42 Marian Hossa 77.6
43 Jeremy Roenick 77.2
44 Stan Mikita 76.8
45 John Bucyk 76.3
46 Pavel Bure 75.6
  Sidney Crosby (**) 
47 Brendan Shanahan 75.5
48 Markus Naslund 75.3
49 Rod Gilbert 75.2
50 Keith Tkachuk 75
51 Bernie Nicholls 74.8
52 Bernie Federko 74.4
53 Brad Richards 74.2
54 Alexander Mogilny 74.1
55 Dany Heatley 73.7
56 John LeClair 73.5
57 Doug Weight 73.5
  Evgeni Malkin (**) 73.4
58 Patrik Elias 73.4
59 Pat LaFontaine 73.3
60 Michel Goulet 73.2
61 Ken Hodge 72.8
62 Alexei Yashin 72.4
63 Raymond Bourque 72.1

Patty is about one point closer to Roenick if we only go to 7 years, but he's still well behind, and he falls even further behind once intangibles come into play. The best offensive player on either 2nd line is Helmut Balderis, and it's not that close. Balderis and Roenick are both better than any of Inglewood's second liners.

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05-29-2013, 02:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
Pat Lafontaine is a worse offensive player than you seem to think, Devil.

10-season VsX values for the modern players here:

40 Sergei Fedorov 77.9
41 Eric Lindros 77.8
42 Marian Hossa 77.6
43 Jeremy Roenick 77.2
44 Stan Mikita 76.8
45 John Bucyk 76.3
46 Pavel Bure 75.6
  Sidney Crosby (**) 
47 Brendan Shanahan 75.5
48 Markus Naslund 75.3
49 Rod Gilbert 75.2
50 Keith Tkachuk 75
51 Bernie Nicholls 74.8
52 Bernie Federko 74.4
53 Brad Richards 74.2
54 Alexander Mogilny 74.1
55 Dany Heatley 73.7
56 John LeClair 73.5
57 Doug Weight 73.5
  Evgeni Malkin (**) 73.4
58 Patrik Elias 73.4
59 Pat LaFontaine 73.3
60 Michel Goulet 73.2
61 Ken Hodge 72.8
62 Alexei Yashin 72.4
63 Raymond Bourque 72.1

Patty is about one point closer to Roenick if we only go to 7 years, but he's still well behind, and he falls even further behind once intangibles come into play. The best offensive player on either 2nd line is Helmut Balderis, and it's not that close. Balderis and Roenick are both better than any of Inglewood's second liners.
Eh, I agree with you in general that Lafontaine has traditionally been overrated here, but using a measure of their 10 best full seasons is really rough on a guy who suffered such injury problems as Pat Lafontaine. I mean, do you really think Lafontaine's offensive upside is on the same level as Patrik Elias' and barely above Ray Bourque's?

Edit: And for that matter, do you think Mogilny is slightly better than Lafontaine? Mogilny had the best season of his career playing with Lafontaine and Lafontaine was clearly better at that point

Double edit: I don't know. I just saw that even if you look at 7 years, Roenick is still a bit ahead of Lafontaine with offense-only. Eh... I still don't know if I like the way the VsX system handles players who had troubles finishing full seasons.

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05-29-2013, 04:42 PM
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Eh, I agree with you in general that Lafontaine has traditionally been overrated here, but using a measure of their 10 best full seasons is really rough on a guy who suffered such injury problems as Pat Lafontaine. I mean, do you really think Lafontaine's offensive upside is on the same level as Patrik Elias' and barely above Ray Bourque's?

Edit: And for that matter, do you think Mogilny is slightly better than Lafontaine? Mogilny had the best season of his career playing with Lafontaine and Lafontaine was clearly better at that point

Double edit: I don't know. I just saw that even if you look at 7 years, Roenick is still a bit ahead of Lafontaine with offense-only. Eh... I still don't know if I like the way the VsX system handles players who had troubles finishing full seasons.
I agree with you here, with vsX a player gets no credit for a great half season that was ended due to injury. A couple of years ago Matnor tried to address this same problem, but in relation to scoring finishes. See this thread. Since then it has become clear that vsX percentages are a much better tool than scoring finishes. I am thinking that combining the two would provide some very useful information. Instead of measuring # of games at a top X pace, it could be # of games at a specific vsX score pace. This tool would not be perfect as it would overvalue injured players because we all know maintaining a certain level of scoring over a longer number of games is more difficult; however, if looked at in the right context it would help with a comparison like Lafontaine vs. Roenick (whom my gut and own eyes tell me should be about equal).

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Old
05-30-2013, 01:44 AM
  #10
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Is Inglewood better up front? Does Gretzky's presence alone make them that? I dunno. Their third line is definitely better, at least
Gretzky & Kurri. Do you think Watson is so horrible as to drag that ridiculously great duo down on the level of Montreal's first line? Second line is closer, but I'd still give a small edge to Inglewood. And as you said, third line is clearly Inglewood.


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I also don't know why you keep pushing the defense > offense line in the ATD, when it's pretty clear that strength of top forward line is the first thing we as a group look at.
Oh please, #1 D-man is by far the most looked at and grossly overrated position. I've been noticing that and suffering from that in every single draft

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05-30-2013, 02:06 AM
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Originally Posted by MadArcand View Post
Gretzky & Kurri. Do you think Watson is so horrible as to drag that ridiculously great duo down on the level of Montreal's first line? Second line is closer, but I'd still give a small edge to Inglewood. And as you said, third line is clearly Inglewood.
Kurri is no better than Mikhailov. It's basically Gretzky plus a plug vs. Jackson and Boucher. You really think that is clear-cut?

Especially in the ATD, where high-end shadows are the norm, I consider it advantageous to have your offense spread around between multiple players rather than concentrated in individual superstars.

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05-30-2013, 02:35 AM
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Eh, I agree with you in general that Lafontaine has traditionally been overrated here, but using a measure of their 10 best full seasons is really rough on a guy who suffered such injury problems as Pat Lafontaine. I mean, do you really think Lafontaine's offensive upside is on the same level as Patrik Elias' and barely above Ray Bourque's?

Edit: And for that matter, do you think Mogilny is slightly better than Lafontaine? Mogilny had the best season of his career playing with Lafontaine and Lafontaine was clearly better at that point

Double edit: I don't know. I just saw that even if you look at 7 years, Roenick is still a bit ahead of Lafontaine with offense-only. Eh... I still don't know if I like the way the VsX system handles players who had troubles finishing full seasons.
There is a misconception about Pat Lafontaine which is quickly dispelled by simply looking at his stats - that is, that he couldn't play most of a season healthy during his prime. This is simply false. Lafontaine's games played during his prime scoring seasons:

80, 75, 79, 74, 75, 57, 84, 76

The season in which he scored 93 points in 57 games obviously stands out, but that is one season. Lafontaine's biggest problem was not missing partial seasons, but whole ones. There is obviously some recall bias surrounding Lafontaine's career which seems to turn on his first couple of years in Buffalo. Because of that season and a half of games, he seems to be viewed here as both better and less healthy, on the whole, than he actually was. This is really not surprising...players who were great when we were young tend to be viewed in a positive light. The shame of Patty's career is that he was just becoming a true superstar when everything went off the rails. As a result, I think people tend to focus more on what he could have been than on what he actually was.

Sorry no, the VsX system isn't doing Patty Lafontaine any great disservice, especially not at seven seasons. You can give him a small boost for his first season in Buffalo if you like, but that is a highly marginal argument. Lafontaine as good as Roenick? For a season and a half, he was better. When the balance of their careers are taken in to account, however, Roenick was clearly the better player.

Alexander Mogilny's career has actually been somewhat underrated around here, also due to recall bias, which has evidently caused people to forget that he was a productive scorer long after Lafontaine had hung em' up, and put up strong scoring seasons in Vancouver, New Jersey and Toronto.

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05-30-2013, 02:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
Kurri is no better than Mikhailov. It's basically Gretzky plus a plug vs. Jackson and Boucher. You really think that is clear-cut?

Especially in the ATD, where high-end shadows are the norm, I consider it advantageous to have your offense spread around between multiple players rather than concentrated in individual superstars.
You're obviously higher on Mikhailov (and possibly Soviet players in general, considering Kapustin and Balderis) than I am. If we equalize Mikhailov and Kurri, then it becomes indeed much closer (I'd probably still choose the line with greatly superior center over the one with greatly superior LW if forced to, but it'd be by a hair).

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05-30-2013, 07:04 AM
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Third line = advantage Inglewood

I think Lonsberry is the worst player on either line and something of a weak link, though not as much as Watson on a first line. But Brind'amour and Ellis are the two best even strength players on either line.
Brind'Amour is obvious, but I'm not at all sure why you think Ron Ellis is a better even-strength (or overall) player than Don Luce. Their careers and peaks largely overlap, so in terms of even-strength scoring a straight-across comparison will do for the years when both men were at their peaks. Here's how they look in terms of even strength points for their top eight NHL seasons:

Don Luce605957494944403923
Ron Ellis464343424241403836

Now, this doesn't count Ellis' first three full seasons before expansion, but we know from the ESG stats that are available that his goalscoring at that time wasn't up to his later standard, and it's unlikely that he made up the difference in assists. Most likely, Ellis was playing on a lower line in his pre-expansion years, and those seasons likely wouldn't add much of anything to the above.

Luce was a better even strength scorer, and it's not close. Is there much of a difference between them defensively? If anything, Luce's reputation is better, though it is hard to make a definitive comparison. Ellis was more physical, but there's very little in the way of an argument that he was as good as Luce at even strength, nevermind clearly better. I like Ron Ellis a lot. I think he's an excellent 3rd line wing, but comparing wings to centers isn't really fair to the wing.

To be honest, I don't see much reason to believe that Ron Ellis is better than Tony Amonte, on the whole. Amonte is far ahead offensively at even strength, and is a pretty good two-way player, himself. I'm surprised how little praise Tony Amonte has gotten in all of this. His even-strength offensive numbers are awesome for a 3rd liner in the ATD. How much really seperates he and Marian Hossa at even strength? The fact that Hossa's a bit better defensively? Amonte's not a standard 3rd liner, but if we're just comparing the units position-by-position, he compares very well to Ellis.

The 3rd lines look quite close here. Brind'Amour is better than Luce, but Doan is better than Lonsberry. Amonte vs. Ellis is close enough that it is probably situationally dependent. If you need to check a high-end LW, you'll want Ellis. If you don't, Amonte is the better player. In this matchup, both players would perform well in their roles, with Ellis being useful against Jackson and Amonte being in a good position to play the counterattacking role against the Gretzky line and its plug LW.

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06-02-2013, 03:59 PM
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Oh please, #1 D-man is by far the most looked at and grossly overrated position. I've been noticing that and suffering from that in every single draft
Your #1 D was fine this past draft. Most of us have Bill Gadsby on the same level as Brian Leetch I think, and some have him a little higher. Brian Leetch, who was a "Game 7 2OT" away from winning back to back Milt Dunnell Cups.

Your #2-6 D... not so fine.

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06-02-2013, 04:14 PM
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Oh please, #1 D-man is by far the most looked at and grossly overrated position. I've been noticing that and suffering from that in every single draft
Tell that to this year's final 4.... and the vast majority of Cup-winners.

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06-02-2013, 06:27 PM
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There is a misconception about Pat Lafontaine which is quickly dispelled by simply looking at his stats - that is, that he couldn't play most of a season healthy during his prime. This is simply false. Lafontaine's games played during his prime scoring seasons:

80, 75, 79, 74, 75, 57, 84, 76

The season in which he scored 93 points in 57 games obviously stands out, but that is one season. Lafontaine's biggest problem was not missing partial seasons, but whole ones. There is obviously some recall bias surrounding Lafontaine's career which seems to turn on his first couple of years in Buffalo. Because of that season and a half of games, he seems to be viewed here as both better and less healthy, on the whole, than he actually was. This is really not surprising...players who were great when we were young tend to be viewed in a positive light. The shame of Patty's career is that he was just becoming a true superstar when everything went off the rails. As a result, I think people tend to focus more on what he could have been than on what he actually was.

Sorry no, the VsX system isn't doing Patty Lafontaine any great disservice, especially not at seven seasons. You can give him a small boost for his first season in Buffalo if you like, but that is a highly marginal argument. Lafontaine as good as Roenick? For a season and a half, he was better. When the balance of their careers are taken in to account, however, Roenick was clearly the better player.
It's not about the number of full seasons Lafontaine had, it's when he missed games. Namely, his injuries started hitting right after he got traded to Buffalo in his statistical prime - 93 points in 57 games at the age of 26 in 1991-92, following it up with 148 points in 84 games in the best full season of his career by far, was 1992-93 when he was 2nd in scoring to Mario Lemieux. Then he followed it up with 18 points in 16 games in 1993-94 and 27 points in 22 games in 1994-95. He played a full season in 1995-96, barely missing the top 20, before getting injured again in 1996-97 and never being the same.

From 1990-91 (Roenick's first elite season) to 1995-96, Roenick had 512 points in 426 games (1.20 PPG). Lafontaine over the same time frame had 462 points in 330 games (1.40 PPG). I don't think this time frame is unfair to either player - it contains the absolute best seasons of both players.

Listen, I think there is a good case that Roenick should be a considered a better overall player than Lafontaine. He was much more durable, had much more longevity (due to health), played a very physical game, and was quite a bit better defensively than Lafontaine. But Lafontaine was definitely a better offensive player in his prime when healthy. He just had problems staying healthy in his prime.

Quote:
Alexander Mogilny's career has actually been somewhat underrated around here, also due to recall bias, which has evidently caused people to forget that he was a productive scorer long after Lafontaine had hung em' up, and put up strong scoring seasons in Vancouver, New Jersey and Toronto.
Mogilny put up a single strong scoring season in each of Vancouver, New Jersey, and Toronto, with lots of mediocrity in between. I guess that's the downside of formulas like like VsX (or top X finishes for that matter) that only look at a player's best seasons, and ignore all the down years in between them.

Roenick is something of a similar case in that he had strong seasons sprinkled throughout his career with less good seasons in between. (After his early season peak in Chicago before the knee injury at least).

I think that if you care about a player's prime as I do, it matters whether he can put together a string of great seasons.

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06-02-2013, 06:44 PM
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Brind'Amour is obvious, but I'm not at all sure why you think Ron Ellis is a better even-strength (or overall) player than Don Luce. Their careers and peaks largely overlap, so in terms of even-strength scoring a straight-across comparison will do for the years when both men were at their peaks. Here's how they look in terms of even strength points for their top eight NHL seasons:

Don Luce605957494944403923
Ron Ellis464343424241403836

Now, this doesn't count Ellis' first three full seasons before expansion, but we know from the ESG stats that are available that his goalscoring at that time wasn't up to his later standard, and it's unlikely that he made up the difference in assists. Most likely, Ellis was playing on a lower line in his pre-expansion years, and those seasons likely wouldn't add much of anything to the above.

Luce was a better even strength scorer, and it's not close. Is there much of a difference between them defensively? If anything, Luce's reputation is better, though it is hard to make a definitive comparison. Ellis was more physical, but there's very little in the way of an argument that he was as good as Luce at even strength, nevermind clearly better. I like Ron Ellis a lot. I think he's an excellent 3rd line wing, but comparing wings to centers isn't really fair to the wing.
I guess maybe I lazily looked at Ellis being an excellent 3rd line wing, while Luce is merely a good/average 3rd line C. That's a pretty big gap in even strength offense in favor of Luce, though I do think that Ellis was probably a better even strength defensive player - hard to tell, but Ellis was known as an elite defensive player, despite rarely killing penalties, while I think a large percentage of Luce's defensive value was on the PK. Ellis was also a physical beast, which Luce wasn't at all. Really hard to tell how good Luce was defensively at even strength on his own, because he was part of such a dominant unit that played on a small home rink. Still, that is a pretty large gap in favor of Luce in terms of offense.

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To be honest, I don't see much reason to believe that Ron Ellis is better than Tony Amonte, on the whole. Amonte is far ahead offensively at even strength, and is a pretty good two-way player, himself. I'm surprised how little praise Tony Amonte has gotten in all of this. His even-strength offensive numbers are awesome for a 3rd liner in the ATD. How much really seperates he and Marian Hossa at even strength? The fact that Hossa's a bit better defensively? Amonte's not a standard 3rd liner, but if we're just comparing the units position-by-position, he compares very well to Ellis.
Hossa "a bit" better defensively than Amonte? I feel like you're doing what you "(rightfully) criticize other GMs for doing when they do it. Jafar found a few quotes indicating that Tony Amonte became a pretty good defensive player later in his career, and you're either trying to apply it to his whole career (he was nothing special without the puck for the first half of his career) or exaggerating just how good he was defensively even in the second half. Hossa has been one of the best defensive wingers of his generation. I agree that their offense is similar (Amonte more explosive, Hossa more of a puck possession guy - I know that from watching them, and their stats are similar). But Hossa is much better defensive than Amonte ever was.

Compared to Ellis? Yeah, I can see how you would take Amonte in a vacuum or on an "all-time" list. Ellis is definitely a better "traditional 3rd liner" though. Amonte really only functions on a third line as a counterattacking threat who is responsible defensively, because his linemates are strong defensive players.

Quote:
The 3rd lines look quite close here. Brind'Amour is better than Luce, but Doan is better than Lonsberry. Amonte vs. Ellis is close enough that it is probably situationally dependent. If you need to check a high-end LW, you'll want Ellis. If you don't, Amonte is the better player. In this matchup, both players would perform well in their roles, with Ellis being useful against Jackson and Amonte being in a good position to play the counterattacking role against the Gretzky line and its plug LW.
Perhaps. I still think that in most situations, you prefer Ellis to Amonte on your third line though.

I guess you could say that arrbez isn't really getting the most of Brind'amour's offense by playing him between Lonsberry and Ellis though.


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 06-02-2013 at 08:30 PM. Reason: fixed quote
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06-03-2013, 02:08 AM
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MadArcand
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Tell that to this year's final 4.... and the vast majority of Cup-winners.
This year's final four? The final four that was won by team Bourque&Vezina?

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06-03-2013, 02:56 AM
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Really hard to tell how good Luce was defensively at even strength on his own, because he was part of such a dominant unit that played on a small home rink.
The same could be said of Ramsay if you look at it that way. That line was outstanding at even strength, checking other teams' top units, and putting up some very strong GF/GA numbers in the process. It was mainly Luce and Ramsay doing the defensive work here. As far as I can tell (and as far as I can remember), they deserve about equal credit.

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Hossa has been one of the best defensive wingers of his generation.
Eh...for a scoringliner. But I'm no expert on Hossa. He always looked pretty soft to me in the playoffs, and maybe that has colored my opinion of his defensive ability. Perhaps I underrate him.

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Amonte really only functions on a third line as a counterattacking threat who is responsible defensively, because his linemates are strong defensive players.
Which is really not a bad way to use your 3rd line RW, depending on division/conference LW matchups. I didn't have in-depth discussions with Jafar about how he saw Amonte functioning on the unit, but I think he made the pick cognizant of the fact that he was unlikely to face any real dominant left wings in the playoffs, which turned out to be correct. The ATD has many more dominant powerforward types on the right wing than on the left. Amonte's ability to be the offensive catalyst of a line (which he absolutely was at his peak) makes him particularly well-suited to this role in the ATD. There are plenty of offensive guys with some defensive value (Nolan, et al.) who you could stick on the RW of a 3rd line in the ATD, but a lot of them might suffer trying to make their own offense on a checkingline (which is also true of Brind'Amour). Not so with Amonte. The way Jafar managed to use him this year (and with my modified strategy of Doan/Klukay on the LW depending on matchup), I think Amonte's actually a pretty darned good 3rd liner.

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06-03-2013, 03:00 AM
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It's not about the number of full seasons Lafontaine had, it's when he missed games. Namely, his injuries started hitting right after he got traded to Buffalo in his statistical prime - 93 points in 57 games at the age of 26 in 1991-92, following it up with 148 points in 84 games in the best full season of his career by far, was 1992-93 when he was 2nd in scoring to Mario Lemieux. Then he followed it up with 18 points in 16 games in 1993-94 and 27 points in 22 games in 1994-95. He played a full season in 1995-96, barely missing the top 20, before getting injured again in 1996-97 and never being the same.
Sure, but that's getting back to what-iffing Lafontaine's career. He basically had his true prime stolen from him, which sucks, because he was on the way to becoming a real superstar. But that doesn't change anything about what he actually accomplished. It's one thing to play 57 games and produce like a house on fire, which Patty did once. It's quite another to play 20.

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06-03-2013, 07:42 AM
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Tell that to this year's final 4.... and the vast majority of Cup-winners.
Strangely, of the four ATD champions to have drafted a defenseman in the 1st round, I have worked for three of them. This is not a coincidence (well, it sort of is in regards to Reen's team); I am something of a chauvinist for the position, which I consider the most important of all in team building. There are many paths which lead to Rome, I think, when constructing forward lines, but no substitute for having a dominant top defenseman. But that seems to be my own ATD meme moreso than a general philosophy or trend.

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06-03-2013, 09:30 AM
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This year's final four? The final four that was won by team Bourque&Vezina?
Doughty vs. Keith and Letang vs. Chara. That final 4.

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06-03-2013, 04:23 PM
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Doughty vs. Keith and Letang vs. Chara. That final 4.
Well, I don't think that's reflected in the ATDs, is it?

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